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Post by FairyGodmother on Nov 22, 2022 17:55:49 GMT
The scene is set in a club where the women are forced by the Engineer to flaunt themselves in skimpy outfits. That is central to the setting of the opening of the show. It wouldn't work in any way if the club workers were all dressed demurely. It just isn't how that sort of establishment would have operated. Plus you need the contrast so that the sale of the virginal Kim hits even harder. This is a horrific transaction and needs to have an impact. That's the other problem I had with the Guardian article — describing her as a "sex worker". |
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Post by Sotongal on Nov 22, 2022 19:58:07 GMT
The Heat is on in Saigon has always, to my mind, been a look at how the GIs treated the locals as commodities. Their behaviour is not comfortable to watch and rightly so. They are not the heroes of the scene. And the fact that this segues into Movie in my Mind gives the club workers an opportunity to escape into fantasy for a few moments even though we can see that fantasy as deeply flawed. But why do they have to force the South East Asian performers to flaunt themselves like that in skimpy bikinis and erotic movements in front of the ACTUAL audience, thereby exposing them to the male gaze? Why does The Movie in Mind have to have such excrutiatingly bad lyrics which are all about "I need a man to save me" and pander to the white saviour trope? Change the lyrics and it could be a great songs about how much the girls truly despise the men and the war. Let them sing that they hope to make one of the GIs their ticket to the USA, but not in such a godawful sappy way. Since Miss Saigon is a subject close to my heart, I've been following this discussion closely and what I find most interesting is that so far it's an discussion entirely had by MEN. Presume they are not actually forcing south East Asian performers to be in Miss Saigon,in ‘skimpy bikinis and making erotic movements’ whilst knowing what the content is, unless they want to be in it? Take it out and it’s a different show. It is about American GIs and their attitudes and interaction with local girls in Saigon in the Vietnam War of the 1970s. The male characters come out of this badly and are an uncomfortable watch. There are and always have been, plenty of uncomfortable watches/sights/deeds in theatre productions, as there are in real life. In the end, ‘you pay your money and you make your choice’ as the saying goes and as one chooses what productions to go and watch. |
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 20:34:08 GMT
But why do they have to force the South East Asian performers to flaunt themselves like that in skimpy bikinis and erotic movements in front of the ACTUAL audience, thereby exposing them to the male gaze? Why does The Movie in Mind have to have such excrutiatingly bad lyrics which are all about "I need a man to save me" and pander to the white saviour trope? Change the lyrics and it could be a great songs about how much the girls truly despise the men and the war. Let them sing that they hope to make one of the GIs their ticket to the USA, but not in such a godawful sappy way. Since Miss Saigon is a subject close to my heart, I've been following this discussion closely and what I find most interesting is that so far it's an discussion entirely had by MEN. Presume they are not actually forcing south East Asian performers to be in Miss Saigon,in ‘skimpy bikinis and making erotic movements’ whilst knowing what the content is, unless they want to be in it? Take it out and it’s a different show. It is about American GIs and their attitudes and interaction with local girls in Saigon in the Vietnam War of the 1970s. The male characters come out of this badly and are an uncomfortable watch. There are and always have been, plenty of uncomfortable watches/sights/deeds in theatre productions, as there are in real life. In the end, ‘you pay your money and you make your choice’ as the saying goes and as one chooses what productions to go and watch. Quite a few uncomfortable links and overlaps here between the performers and the characters. 'They wouldn't do it if they didn't want to do it'. What if too often it's the only type of work going, and you don't get considered for other roles that aren't considered your 'type'? Yes the American characters come out of it badly, but how many of the male cast have to debase themselves to show that? It's the women performers who have to serve that up. 'You pay your money and you make your choice' - yep.... |
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Post by distantcousin on Nov 22, 2022 20:35:14 GMT
Reading the statement from the theatre, I wonder whether they had actually thought about the show in any depth before taking in the project. The Heat is on in Saigon has always, to my mind, been a look at how the GIs treated the locals as commodities. Their behaviour is not comfortable to watch and rightly so. They are not the heroes of the scene. And the fact that this segues into Movie in my Mind gives the club workers an opportunity to escape into fantasy for a few moments even though we can see that fantasy as deeply flawed. Bui Doi is not a saviour moment. It has always been to me an examination of the damage that war does to all sides and the desire to atone by trying to put some things right. It isn't about easy answers. It is damaged men trying to help rebuild lives and take responsibility. The Morning of the Dragon as I have seen it staged in the original and touring productions hasn't been a celebration of Orientalism. It has been how an oppressive regime crushes all those who might stand in its way. Using the very techniques that dictators always do. I am just perplexed by the lack of understanding of the source material by so many who really should have known better.
Yes, yes, yes!! The clear lack of real understanding of the piece by its future producers is astounding!
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Post by kyvai on Nov 23, 2022 6:45:02 GMT
To approach from a different angle, the difference between the characters being scantily clad and the actors being scantily clad, is that the GIs are there to exploit the characters for their bodies, but the theatre audience is there to appreciate the actors’ performance/talent, not their bodies in an objectifying or fetishised or hypersexualised way. There are several productions in the West End now where one could argue audiences are drawn in because there are scantily clad women, and/or men, on stage. But I don’t really think Miss Saigon is like that, I don’t think anyone is convinced to buy a ticket because of the promise of seeing pretty Asian girls in bikinis.
No judgement on which of the two is acceptable or not, but there is a difference.
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Post by originalconceptlive on Nov 23, 2022 7:50:45 GMT
Regarding the Dreamland workers' and Kim's hope for an American man to save them, I think changing that in the opening scenes could risk impacting on later parts of the show in a way that ultimately wouldn't work. I think of Kim's ongoing trust in Chris to save her, as a sort of tragic flaw, and the show is a cautionary tale against that mindset (among other readings). It's sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't: as the story currently goes, Kim is dependent on Chris (not least in her own mind), and we don't want her to be that; but if that were changed by making her cynical and scheming from the start about 'targeting' Chris, then the implication might become "who's really exploiting whom", and that shouldn't be in question. The emotional impact of Kim's tragic arc would also be diminished.
I suppose the other women at the club could be cynical, with Kim as the outlier; but having them share her mindset makes it more convincing that she too would think that way, as it's baked into the environment she's found herself in.
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Post by spathzthecat on Nov 23, 2022 8:27:18 GMT
Never understood why the 'girls' in prison in Chicago the musical are dressed the way they are. I have read many a posting from some cast members saying 'dancing in my pants' again.
BTW, I see the Wimbledon Tennis have relaxed the rules on white underwear for female players during the tournament because of the stress this puts on them if they are on their Period.
No change seems to on the cards for the female dancers in Cats, what must it be like for the actress performing Victoria the White Cat?
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Post by craig on Nov 23, 2022 9:46:10 GMT
I am just perplexed by the lack of understanding of the source material by so many who really should have known better. This, 100%. So many strong opinions about this show based on a total lack of understanding of what it's about. A friend of mine hates it because it glorifies America and Americans as saviours. Erm, ok... |
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Post by andypandy on Nov 23, 2022 13:38:55 GMT
Wait till the woke warriors take a look at Les Mis and Phantom again through a social justice 2022 viewpoint. Eek!
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 23, 2022 14:19:17 GMT
We have already had Glyndebourne and ROH trying to 'cleanse' the operatic repertoire of anything that might not fit the modern sensibilities of the easily triggered.
Many other companies have drunk similar Kool Aids.
Audience members can tell when theatre pieces reflect values that are rooted in the past without seeing them as a celebration. No one watches Kiss Me, Kate/Taming of the Shrew and thinks that is how best to approach relationships with the people in their lives.
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Post by firefingers on Nov 23, 2022 15:53:48 GMT
This does remind me a bit of a show I did several years ago, where an audience member stormed out loudly declaring the show was racist. It was a historical drama featuring a racist character who is rightly called out for this racist-ness by the protagonist. It would have been more offensive to act like those views weren't held at the time by some.
With Miss Saigon has had a turbulent past, surely working with Sheffield Theatres to ensure some mistakes of the past and outdated depictions aren't repeated, rather than bailing on them, would have been a more sensible idea?
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 23, 2022 16:01:11 GMT
Wait till the woke warriors take a look at Les Mis and Phantom again through a social justice 2022 viewpoint. Eek! I would imagine most of them are asleep by interval at Les Mis or Phantom  |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 23, 2022 16:08:40 GMT
This does remind me a bit of a show I did several years ago, where an audience member stormed out loudly declaring the show was racist. It was a historical drama featuring a racist character who is rightly called out for this racist-ness by the protagonist. It would have been more offensive to act like those views weren't held at the time by some. With Miss Saigon has had a turbulent past, surely working with Sheffield Theatres to ensure some mistakes of the past and outdated depictions aren't repeated, rather than bailing on them, would have been a more sensible idea? the group I work with most often, did Merchant of Venice back in 2019 and got a complaint that it was anti-Semitic.... |
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Post by justsaying113 on Nov 23, 2022 17:33:20 GMT
Reading the statement from the theatre, I wonder whether they had actually thought about the show in any depth before taking in the project. The Heat is on in Saigon has always, to my mind, been a look at how the GIs treated the locals as commodities. Their behaviour is not comfortable to watch and rightly so. They are not the heroes of the scene. And the fact that this segues into Movie in my Mind gives the club workers an opportunity to escape into fantasy for a few moments even though we can see that fantasy as deeply flawed. Bui Doi is not a saviour moment. It has always been to me an examination of the damage that war does to all sides and the desire to atone by trying to put some things right. It isn't about easy answers. It is damaged men trying to help rebuild lives and take responsibility. The Morning of the Dragon as I have seen it staged in the original and touring productions hasn't been a celebration of Orientalism. It has been how an oppressive regime crushes all those who might stand in its way. Using the very techniques that dictators always do. I am just perplexed by the lack of understanding of the source material by so many who really should have known better. |
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Post by justsaying113 on Nov 23, 2022 17:36:13 GMT
Spot-on oxfordsimon
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Post by originalconceptlive on Nov 23, 2022 20:32:00 GMT
In fairness, it's possible that the team behind this production does interpret the show in the same way as many here do, but they're being pragmatic by publicly saying "We're changing and reinterpreting things to better the show", which is going to play better with many these days than "We're primarily going to work with what's already in the text".
Furthermore, in general directors do love to declare that they're fixing or radically reimagining shows, no matter how standard their interpretations turn out to be (and I don't think 'standard' is necessarily a bad thing here). This might, sometimes, be strategic rather than arrogant on their part. Long ago I read an interview with a film director, who spoke about his first ever meeting with studio bigwigs about his potential involvement with a project. They asked what he thought of the script, and he said "I liked it!". They said "You haven't done this before, have you? There need to be problems with the script that you need to fix."
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Post by jay78uk on Dec 1, 2022 13:07:26 GMT
I worry about the pressure on producers and directors to tweak shows to current day 'sensibility'. Miss Saigon was written nearly 35 years ago.... indeed a longer period than between its genesis and the events it describes. Back then the pressure for 'mega' Broadway and West End productions was immense. As with other blockbuster shows at the time, Miss Saigon was a curious mix of bombast, spectacle and seriousness. It is no wonder that the show sits uncomfortably with the majority in current times. I would be much happier with the original composers and writers tweaking their piece should they feel the need to. If they did, I would appreciate them making the score more sung through- the subject matter would benefit from a more operatic ethos than standalone numbers a la Les Mis.
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Post by cezbear on Dec 1, 2022 13:22:46 GMT
I worry about the pressure on producers and directors to tweak shows to current day 'sensibility'. Miss Saigon was written nearly 35 years ago.... indeed a longer period than between its genesis and the events it describes. Back then the pressure for 'mega' Broadway and West End productions was immense. As with other blockbuster shows at the time, Miss Saigon was a curious mix of bombast, spectacle and seriousness. It is no wonder that the show sits uncomfortably with the majority in current times. I would be much happier with the original composers and writers tweaking their piece should they feel the need to. If they did, I would appreciate them making the score more sung through- the subject matter would benefit from a more operatic ethos than standalone numbers a la Les Mis. More sung through? There's barely any spoken lines at all. But also please, please let's not have them rewrite the score now too. I wouldn't say it sits uncomfortably with the majority at all. Honestly (and this is not aimed at you jay78uk) at the point you're thinking about tweaking a show to change genders, storyline, songs... just write another bloody show. Miss Saigon has always been one of the 'big ones' and audiences are not looking for it to be reinvented, IMO. Just deliver a really good production of the show that it IS and don't make it something it isn't.
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Post by jay78uk on Dec 1, 2022 13:39:57 GMT
Fair point cezbear... just revisited the soundtrack (which I adore)... I struggle a bit with the bombastic orchestral ending of Last Night of the World which is then repeated with I Still Believe. They are both lovely melodies, but the repetitive big endings make these songs feel more like a rock opera. So just change those bits please ;-) Joking aside, more generally I think we are saying the same thing- let's try and be less quick to judge works against current day notions of right and wrong and more willing to accept works as a product of their time. It feels, to me at least, unfair that some vilify the Schonberg and Boubill's intent, given at the time it was considered brave subject matter and one that might not go down well with lucrative Broadway audiences. Cezbear I think you pose a really interesting question asking what audiences are looking for, but I am not sure I share your confidence in knowing the answer. Beyond ticket sales, I'm not sure we'll ever know unless surveys were undertaken over an extended time period asking questions of what they made of different aspects of the show they just saw.
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Post by TallPaul on Mar 10, 2023 15:28:00 GMT
Extended by a week, due to "extraordinary demand".
The height of summer, too, when most of Sheffield decamps to Skeggie. People must be travelling from all over!
I bet CamMack is already planning his next move. He didn't become a billionaire by not exploiting his IP.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Mar 10, 2023 15:34:26 GMT
Does Cameron holiday in Skeggie or Mablethorpe?
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Post by TallPaul on Mar 10, 2023 17:26:10 GMT
Does Cameron holiday in Skeggie or Mablethorpe? I've heard him and Mike have got a three berth 'van at Ingoldmells. 😁 |
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Post by Being Alive on Mar 10, 2023 18:00:00 GMT
It's one of my favourite scores and with Joanna Ampil as the Engineer I'm intrigued to see how this could work, so will definitely be trying to get to Sheffield to see it.
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Post by theatregod on Mar 19, 2023 8:10:51 GMT
Any more casting news for this ?
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Post by jamie2c on Mar 25, 2023 22:41:41 GMT
Any more casting news for this ? I have no new information. It is a very short run of several weeks, so would probably be actors already living in the UK. However, after seeing the audience reaction to her singing On My Own on Big Night of Musicals on BBC1 tonight. I think Nathania Ong would be ideal. If Les Miserables could give her the vacation time. |
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