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Post by og on Nov 22, 2022 11:03:21 GMT
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 11:04:20 GMT
No, the criticism on this was absolutely right and I don't know what on earth they were thinking (well I do, they were clearly thinking they wanted a name no matter what). But they've long abandoned casting white performers as the engineer, thank god. I think almost immediately after Pryce? |
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Post by og on Nov 22, 2022 11:06:03 GMT
Just to clarify cezbear I am not condoning it... |
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Post by mrbarnaby on Nov 22, 2022 11:28:23 GMT
I’d be more interested to hear from the many Asian performers this show has given work to over the years.. did/do they have a problem with it?
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 11:33:25 GMT
I think the culture has moved on from 'yes the themes are difficult but surely we sympathise most with Kim and condemn US actions' to 'when can we have South Asian / South East Asian characters who elicit more than sympathy?'. New Earth say in their statement that they understand the production is going for a 'new reading' of Miss Saigon, but they have to make decisions for their production and staff right now, and can't know in advance that they're going to be comfortable to be co-programmed with whatever the outcome is. I think they expressed that well - leaving space for the production to be revelatory, but frankly believing the problems they have with the material are too 'baked in'. As a personal reaction, I've only seen the DVD of the live show. I felt incredibly uncomfortable thinking of the performers playing the Vietnamese women - how excited their families must be that they've made it to the West End, and then they're mainly involved in bump and grind routines. It's not wrong that this sex work is depicted, of course, but as actual people have to play these roles from within a relatively small community (and even smaller performing community) it's understandable many want what's next rather than what's already been. Will be interesting to see how the reinterpretation goes. I was enjoying the recent 'South Pacific', then realised we hadn't had 'Happy Talk' yet, and that could torpedo the whole thing. As it turned out, the song's re-orchestration brought a complexity and mordant tone that absolutely brought a three-dimensional character angle to Bloody Mary. So Joanna Ampil has experience of reinterpreting roles to have more complexity. It can certainly be argued anyway that the (male) Engineer can be played Emcee-like, almost savouring the madness around him satirically and sundering his own morality as part of that. I wonder if playing it female may make that more difficult, as the relationship to 'the girls' and womanhood will be different; perhaps they have an entirely different angle in mind. How much of an original you can pull in a new direction, confound, interrogate, rug-pull and critique, before you break what fundamentally worked will be interesting to see. Your points are valid but with such changes you're talking about creating an entirely different show. Surely going forwards the point is to write stronger shows and roles for underrepresented communities, rather than try to completely change an existing work? I don't understand why every show needs to be a perfect representation or cancelled. I'd love to see more shows inclusive of Asian performers - and not just colour blind casting. That doesn't mean this show needs to be tossed in the 'problematic' pile. Otherwise it's like saying this show is the only show that can possibly be responsible for representing this community, which is far more problematic. Look to the future - new shows, new roles - instead of looking back to see what you can pull apart. (That's a general 'you', not you specifically max!)
I've been on some panels for identifying new musicals for development. I think the knowledge that such potential exists will be well known within the particular sector of the artistic community that are hungry for new work and fresh tellings from their specific cultural perspective. It isn't that there's no talent out there, or that South Asian / South East Asian artists aren't using the existing structures to attempt to get their work developed and produced. I agree (and hoped to put across) that there's only a certain amount of pulling an existing work around and reshaping it before you start communicating to your audience: we don't actually like or trust this material ourselves! In which case - why do it; and why 'spoil' what an existing or returning audience liked about it? |
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Post by theatrefan62 on Nov 22, 2022 11:42:35 GMT
Anecdotally my Asian friends have no issue with it, and for a couple its one of their favourite musicals.
Also historically it's accurate that women in Vietnam were treated appallingly with little options and that America had (still has) a saviour complex. These things need to be handled sensitively and an Asian creative team could bring a more rounded and authentic side to the show, but they are important and relevant themes for the time and place.
I can understand how some may have issues with it, and the broader issue of Asian actors only having this and king and I to be in needs addressing with wider representation across productions.
When individuals or groups decide they speak for everyone in a demographic i do get annoyed. I see it with gay groups speaking for me saying this or that is/isn't appropriate, and I personally am not bothered by it at all and may even like it. Likewise when I find something stereotypical or when I'm told I should like something (and I don't), I don't expect those things to be banned.
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 11:54:19 GMT
Snowflakes need to detach art from reality, Miss Saigon is objectively an amazing musical In any case, not staging Miss Saigon would rob Asian actors of one of the few dedicated opportunities they get when it comes to theatre. Now that would do more harm than good Thank goodness that Art impacts on Reality, draws from it, reflects/refracts it, and sometimes helps a change to that reality. I don't really see what the 'Snowflakes' slur has to do with that. If you're at enough distance from the heritage and characters of Miss Saigon then it may seem like 'just a story' detached from reality. The perspective New Earth are speaking from isn't that. New Earth aren't saying Miss Saigon shouldn't be staged, but that they don't want to be programmed in a season with it - due to doubts about what it's been, and how a reversion will turn out. The argument 'It's all those performers have got, why rob them of it?' is a great argument for it not being all they've got. I'm tempted to say it shows how little has moved on, but actually there's really good work (including musical theatre writing) from South East Asian writers, performers and directors in the UK. It would be great to see the producing theatre put their money into a new project of scale instead. They are a subsidised theatre after all. |
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 12:03:34 GMT
Snowflakes need to detach art from reality, Miss Saigon is objectively an amazing musical In any case, not staging Miss Saigon would rob Asian actors of one of the few dedicated opportunities they get when it comes to theatre. Now that would do more harm than good Thank goodness that Art impacts on Reality, draws from it, reflects/refracts it, and sometimes helps a change to that reality. I don't really see what the 'Snowflakes' slur has to do with that. If you're at enough distance from the heritage and characters of Miss Saigon then it may seem like 'just a story' detached from reality. The perspective New Earth are speaking from isn't that. New Earth aren't saying Miss Saigon shouldn't be staged, but that they don't want to be programmed in a season with it - due to doubts about what it's been, and how a reversion will turn out. The argument 'It's all those performers have got, why rob them of it?' is a great argument for it not being all they've got. I'm tempted to say it shows how little has moved on, but actually there's really good work (including musical theatre writing) from South East Asian writers, performers and directors in the UK. It would be great to see the producing theatre put their money into a new project of scale instead. They are a subsidised theatre after all. Yes, but then what, take away the one thing and leave nothing? Why is it either/or - let's stage Miss Saigon and stage something new for these artists also. Why don't New Earth do that instead of cancelling their show? It just seems such a terrible waste of their energy to me. |
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 12:04:57 GMT
Anecdotally my Asian friends have no issue with it, and for a couple its one of their favourite musicals. Also historically it's accurate that women in Vietnam were treated appallingly with little options and that America had (still has) a saviour complex. These things need to be handled sensitively and an Asian creative team could bring a more rounded and authentic side to the show, but they are important and relevant themes for the time and place. I can understand how some may have issues with it, and the broader issue of Asian actors only having this and king and I to be in needs addressing with wider representation across productions. When individuals or groups decide they speak for everyone in a demographic i do get annoyed. I see it with gay groups speaking for me saying this or that is/isn't appropriate, and I personally am not bothered by it at all and may even like it. Likewise when I find something stereotypical or when I'm told I should like something (and I don't), I don't expect those things to be banned. Really interesting anecdotal points re. your friends' perspectives. To be fair to New Earth, they're speaking for themselves and their team (as worded in their statement) rather than saying they're the voice of all South East Asians on this; and aren't calling for it to be cancelled or pulled, just saying they don't feel comfortable being co-programmed alongside it. |
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 12:17:21 GMT
Thank goodness that Art impacts on Reality, draws from it, reflects/refracts it, and sometimes helps a change to that reality. I don't really see what the 'Snowflakes' slur has to do with that. If you're at enough distance from the heritage and characters of Miss Saigon then it may seem like 'just a story' detached from reality. The perspective New Earth are speaking from isn't that. New Earth aren't saying Miss Saigon shouldn't be staged, but that they don't want to be programmed in a season with it - due to doubts about what it's been, and how a reversion will turn out. The argument 'It's all those performers have got, why rob them of it?' is a great argument for it not being all they've got. I'm tempted to say it shows how little has moved on, but actually there's really good work (including musical theatre writing) from South East Asian writers, performers and directors in the UK. It would be great to see the producing theatre put their money into a new project of scale instead. They are a subsidised theatre after all. Yes, but then what, take away the one thing and leave nothing? Why is it either/or - let's stage Miss Saigon and stage something new for these artists also. Why don't New Earth do that instead of cancelling their show? It just seems such a terrible waste of their energy to me. I don't think New Earth will have a problem programming the planned work elsewhere, so I don't think anything's been lost. In recent years they've had work at Theatre Royal Plymouth, the Arcola in London and many other venues. I do usually roll my eyes when the argument comes up with musicals: 'Why X revival, when we could have New Writing?' Why? Because people go and see known properties, and a hit show might cross-subsidise New Writing. In this case though, from a subsidised theatre, and so soon after the commercial West End revival, it does feel to me that the talents of Robert Hastie and Anthony Lau might have jumped to a Large Scale piece of New Writing and cut out the middle man. It's time. |
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Post by mrbarnaby on Nov 22, 2022 12:48:26 GMT
I hope that Sheffield really are doing something new with the show - god knows the recent London revival was severely lacking in all departments (not the lead performance though).
I don’t think it’s fair to right this show off when it was such a big hit for so long, and contains a score of such power.
I think if they mess it up and it’s still problematic- then criticise it- but to do so before anyones seen what they’ve done with it is bonkers.
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 12:57:25 GMT
Yes, but then what, take away the one thing and leave nothing? Why is it either/or - let's stage Miss Saigon and stage something new for these artists also. Why don't New Earth do that instead of cancelling their show? It just seems such a terrible waste of their energy to me. I don't think New Earth will have a problem programming the planned work elsewhere, so I don't think anything's been lost. In recent years they've had work at Theatre Royal Plymouth, the Arcola in London and many other venues. I do usually roll my eyes when the argument comes up with musicals: 'Why X revival, when we could have New Writing?' Why? Because people go and see known properties, and a hit show might cross-subsidise New Writing. In this case though, from a subsidised theatre, and so soon after the commercial West End revival, it does feel to me that the talents of Robert Hastie and Anthony Lau might have jumped to a Large Scale piece of New Writing and cut out the middle man. It's time. Yes but why can't we have BOTH. Arguably a known hit show giving new performers a platform and fanbase can only elevate new projects they might then go on to do. |
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 22, 2022 13:18:35 GMT
Funnily enough next autumn there will be an "untitled f*ck m*ss s**gon" play at the Young Vic. Just announced. Not the first time a playwright of Asian descent addresses the topic (eg David Henry Hwang's Face Value and Yellow Face).
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Post by distantcousin on Nov 22, 2022 13:46:26 GMT
Miss Saigon has been consistently accused of racism for over 30 years, for a number of issues that range from casting to lyrics in made-up Vietnamese and depiction of Asian women. You can agree or disagree, but you can't pretend that Miss Saigon being problematic is a new trend. I think it depends on the audience we are talking about. The average theatregoer would be completely unaware of these "controversies". If it was THAT problematic (or more accurately, "unpopular" with the general public, it would have never lasted beyond its original productions. It certainly wouldn't have got a West End revival in 2013. |
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Post by max on Nov 22, 2022 14:09:02 GMT
I don't think New Earth will have a problem programming the planned work elsewhere, so I don't think anything's been lost. In recent years they've had work at Theatre Royal Plymouth, the Arcola in London and many other venues. I do usually roll my eyes when the argument comes up with musicals: 'Why X revival, when we could have New Writing?' Why? Because people go and see known properties, and a hit show might cross-subsidise New Writing. In this case though, from a subsidised theatre, and so soon after the commercial West End revival, it does feel to me that the talents of Robert Hastie and Anthony Lau might have jumped to a Large Scale piece of New Writing and cut out the middle man. It's time. Yes but why can't we have BOTH. Arguably a known hit show giving new performers a platform and fanbase can only elevate new projects they might then go on to do. The same argument could have been made in 1989 - 'but it'll open doors for you'. Some performers/writers/directors will feel they're still waiting - and too often 'let's have both' doesn't turn into a very big other part of that 'both'. As it turns out we will have both: Sheffield's 'Miss Saigon', and no doubt New Earth will programme their play elsewhere. I thought both theatre companies statements were measured in tone. New Earth haven't said they'll never go back to Sheffield Theatres, just that they're not comfortable directly alongside the unknowns of Miss Saigon; while Sheffield have held the door open for future hosting. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 22, 2022 14:59:03 GMT
Reading the statement from the theatre, I wonder whether they had actually thought about the show in any depth before taking in the project.
The Heat is on in Saigon has always, to my mind, been a look at how the GIs treated the locals as commodities. Their behaviour is not comfortable to watch and rightly so. They are not the heroes of the scene. And the fact that this segues into Movie in my Mind gives the club workers an opportunity to escape into fantasy for a few moments even though we can see that fantasy as deeply flawed.
Bui Doi is not a saviour moment. It has always been to me an examination of the damage that war does to all sides and the desire to atone by trying to put some things right. It isn't about easy answers. It is damaged men trying to help rebuild lives and take responsibility.
The Morning of the Dragon as I have seen it staged in the original and touring productions hasn't been a celebration of Orientalism. It has been how an oppressive regime crushes all those who might stand in its way. Using the very techniques that dictators always do.
I am just perplexed by the lack of understanding of the source material by so many who really should have known better.
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 15:17:56 GMT
Reading the statement from the theatre, I wonder whether they had actually thought about the show in any depth before taking in the project. The Heat is on in Saigon has always, to my mind, been a look at how the GIs treated the locals as commodities. Their behaviour is not comfortable to watch and rightly so. They are not the heroes of the scene. And the fact that this segues into Movie in my Mind gives the club workers an opportunity to escape into fantasy for a few moments even though we can see that fantasy as deeply flawed. Bui Doi is not a saviour moment. It has always been to me an examination of the damage that war does to all sides and the desire to atone by trying to put some things right. It isn't about easy answers. It is damaged men trying to help rebuild lives and take responsibility. The Morning of the Dragon as I have seen it staged in the original and touring productions hasn't been a celebration of Orientalism. It has been how an oppressive regime crushes all those who might stand in its way. Using the very techniques that dictators always do. I am just perplexed by the lack of understanding of the source material by so many who really should have known better. All of this, said far more eloquently than I could manage. |
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Post by viserys on Nov 22, 2022 15:31:24 GMT
The Heat is on in Saigon has always, to my mind, been a look at how the GIs treated the locals as commodities. Their behaviour is not comfortable to watch and rightly so. They are not the heroes of the scene. And the fact that this segues into Movie in my Mind gives the club workers an opportunity to escape into fantasy for a few moments even though we can see that fantasy as deeply flawed. But why do they have to force the South East Asian performers to flaunt themselves like that in skimpy bikinis and erotic movements in front of the ACTUAL audience, thereby exposing them to the male gaze? Why does The Movie in Mind have to have such excrutiatingly bad lyrics which are all about "I need a man to save me" and pander to the white saviour trope? Change the lyrics and it could be a great songs about how much the girls truly despise the men and the war. Let them sing that they hope to make one of the GIs their ticket to the USA, but not in such a godawful sappy way. Since Miss Saigon is a subject close to my heart, I've been following this discussion closely and what I find most interesting is that so far it's an discussion entirely had by MEN. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 22, 2022 15:43:10 GMT
The scene is set in a club where the women are forced by the Engineer to flaunt themselves in skimpy outfits. That is central to the setting of the opening of the show. It wouldn't work in any way if the club workers were all dressed demurely. It just isn't how that sort of establishment would have operated.
Plus you need the contrast so that the sale of the virginal Kim hits even harder. This is a horrific transaction and needs to have an impact.
It is supposed to be uncomfortable and I have never left a performance feeling that any of the male characters came out in a positive light.
As for Movie in my Mind, they are clearly conditioned to see a certain escape route out of the horrors of the club and that is not a healthy fantasy. But we understand why they think like that.
I certainly don't have the male gaze when viewing these scenes.
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 15:52:17 GMT
The Heat is on in Saigon has always, to my mind, been a look at how the GIs treated the locals as commodities. Their behaviour is not comfortable to watch and rightly so. They are not the heroes of the scene. And the fact that this segues into Movie in my Mind gives the club workers an opportunity to escape into fantasy for a few moments even though we can see that fantasy as deeply flawed. But why do they have to force the South East Asian performers to flaunt themselves like that in skimpy bikinis and erotic movements in front of the ACTUAL audience, thereby exposing them to the male gaze? Why does The Movie in Mind have to have such excrutiatingly bad lyrics which are all about "I need a man to save me" and pander to the white saviour trope? Change the lyrics and it could be a great songs about how much the girls truly despise the men and the war. Let them sing that they hope to make one of the GIs their ticket to the USA, but not in such a godawful sappy way. Since Miss Saigon is a subject close to my heart, I've been following this discussion closely and what I find most interesting is that so far it's an discussion entirely had by MEN. Hello, not a man and still in this discussion. The club scene is an uncomfortable watch and that's deliberate. They are selling sex, how else would you stage it? Miss Saigon is far from the only show to have girls gyrating in skimpy costumes.
Movie In My Mind has the lyrics it does because that's the truth of the characters. Not every character in a show is a perfect, role model of a person. That would be terminally dull to watch. Yes we might like to see Gigi singing f*ck you to the GIs. But that's not the character she is - she wants to escape the life she's in, she sees a way out. And she's likely been sold an American dream over and over, and she wants that. *We* know it's not real, but she clings to it. That's human. The minute I watch a character who's clearly just there to be a mouthpiece for issues, it's glaring. Just let characters be flawed, and real. They don't have to represent anyone, sometimes they just ARE.
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Post by ceebee on Nov 22, 2022 15:52:49 GMT
Anybody who proffers "the male gaze" in those scenes needs a word with themselves!
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Post by viserys on Nov 22, 2022 16:26:42 GMT
Hello, not a man and still in this discussion. The club scene is an uncomfortable watch and that's deliberate. They are selling sex, how else would you stage it? Miss Saigon is far from the only show to have girls gyrating in skimpy costumes. Sorry, your icon doesn't show it! And yes, I'm sick to the backteeth of all the shows that have "girls gyrating in skimpy costumes" in general. Here it is particularly grating though, because it perpetuates that cliche of the South East Asian hooker that still lures thousands of white western men to Thailand, the Philippines and other countries these days. There's endless talk about movies and TV shows these days needing "intimacy coordinators" and such to make intimate scenes more comfortable and stop women being exploited through gratuitious nudity, so why should musicals get a free pass here when it's not necessary because the scene could be staged differently? And "the truth of the characters" could just as well have been a cynic woman who exploits the GIs' loneliness in a far away country to make money off them and have a dream what SHE will do with the money once the war is over. They deliberately chose to make Gigi be all about needing a male saviour to take her to a better life. Anyway, I'm not getting into a big discussion on this show again. I've come to loathe the original version over the years and nothing will change my mind about that. But I don't despise the show so much that it simply doesn't exist for me. It has some great scenes and some wonderful music and I for one am absolutely excited to see what Sheffield will be doing with this. Having a female Engineer and thus at least one female character who isn't just a victim, is a great step in that direction. |
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 16:48:26 GMT
Hello, not a man and still in this discussion. The club scene is an uncomfortable watch and that's deliberate. They are selling sex, how else would you stage it? Miss Saigon is far from the only show to have girls gyrating in skimpy costumes. Sorry, your icon doesn't show it! And yes, I'm sick to the backteeth of all the shows that have "girls gyrating in skimpy costumes" in general. Here it is particularly grating though, because it perpetuates that cliche of the South East Asian hooker that still lures thousands of white western men to Thailand, the Philippines and other countries these days. There's endless talk about movies and TV shows these days needing "intimacy coordinators" and such to make intimate scenes more comfortable and stop women being exploited through gratuitious nudity, so why should musicals get a free pass here when it's not necessary because the scene could be staged differently? And "the truth of the characters" could just as well have been a cynic woman who exploits the GIs' loneliness in a far away country to make money off them and have a dream what SHE will do with the money once the war is over. They deliberately chose to make Gigi be all about needing a male saviour to take her to a better life. Anyway, I'm not getting into a big discussion on this show again. I've come to loathe the original version over the years and nothing will change my mind about that. But I don't despise the show so much that it simply doesn't exist for me. It has some great scenes and some wonderful music and I for one am absolutely excited to see what Sheffield will be doing with this. Having a female Engineer and thus at least one female character who isn't just a victim, is a great step in that direction. Oh, well, I couldn't disagree with you more on the show and the female Engineer idea (for now, anyway), but I can still respect your opinion. 
I do know musicals are using intimacy coordinators now though, I've seen it mentioned more than once recently.
@burlybear how do I get a lovely pink icon? I know I have female ticked in my profile. Wait, never mind, I have managed it!
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 22, 2022 17:11:53 GMT
@burlybear how do I get a lovely pink icon? I know I have female ticked in my profile. Wait, never mind, I have managed it!
Pleased you sorted it. For anyone else wondering you go to Profile/Edit Profile/Personal and that’s where you find the Gender setting. To tag me it’s @ admin (no space) and to tag TallPaul it’s @ pdc1 (no space) |
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Post by cezbear on Nov 22, 2022 17:20:45 GMT
@burlybear how do I get a lovely pink icon? I know I have female ticked in my profile. Wait, never mind, I have managed it!
Pleased you sorted it. For anyone else wondering you go to Profile/Edit Profile/Personal and that’s where you find the Gender setting. To tag me it’s @ admin (no space) and to tag TallPaul it’s @ pdc1 (no space) Just to add for anyone also wondering, once you've set the Gender setting under Personal, it's then under Privacy to actually make it display (I only mention as it took me a bit of puzzling to work that out!). |
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