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Post by robertb213 on Aug 26, 2019 16:50:54 GMT
Anyway, I’ve never been to The Other Palace. Looking to get front row for this. Is the stage high/has it been for previous productions? Not too high, you'd be looking up a little bit but not too bad. Legroom is averagely acceptable. Sometimes speakers can block the view a bit but not exceptionally so. |
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Post by showtoones on Aug 26, 2019 16:52:44 GMT
It's interesting because in shows like Angels in America or La Cage, is everyone gay who plays gay characters in these? And in Fiddler - Does the person playing Tevye have to be jewish? I can tell you not all of the daughters in Fiddler are jewish and no one seems to be saying anything about that.
What's interesting is one can be jewish but not look stereotypically jewish just like someone can be gay but not look stereotypically gay. It's different in a show like West Side Story or in the Heights when the character is Spanish and thus probably should look Spanish so the audience gets it.
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Post by david on Aug 26, 2019 16:54:23 GMT
Yes and I don't think there's really anything more to discuss. Everyone has repeated the same talking points into the ground and it's just irritating now. Nobody is adding to the discussion and I'm even being a bit hypocritical here by saying any of this tbh. You can easily just avoid the thread then. I’m quite enjoying reading all the various opinions on it, and no discussion should be stopped just because one person is fed up of it. Anyway, I’ve never been to The Other Palace. Looking to get front row for this. Is the stage high/has it been for previous productions? From previous productions at TOP, I’ve sat in the front few rows and never had any problems. From reading previous posts, a lot of us seem to have booked rows A-C with the cheap tickets. What the staging is going to be like is anybody’s guess at the moment, but I think rows B and C should be ok (I hope) I’ve booked a row B seat myself. |
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Post by sf on Aug 26, 2019 16:55:20 GMT
Anyway, I’ve never been to The Other Palace. Looking to get front row for this. Is the stage high/has it been for previous productions? Front row is perfectly OK, though better towards the centre than off to the sides. There are no really bad seats in The Other Palace. |
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Post by theatremadness on Aug 26, 2019 17:02:13 GMT
I really could not be further from the truth that the group are trying to tarnish the production. Just trying to open a dialogue which, it seems, that some people do not want to hear. Adam Lenson on Twitter has talked about how the recent production of Tom Stoppard’s Leopoldstat stater very clearly in the breakdown that they were looking for actors specifically of Jewish heritage and that casting directors were enquiring about Jewish actors on the books of different agents. They not looking EXCLUSIVELY looking for Jewish actors, but looking for at least SOME cultural representation. So this obviously can be done legally if the producers care to. There is a big difference between 'wanting' something or thinking you 'deserve' something and actually getting it. Yes it'd be nice if they'd have done that (and tbh it is pretty silly that they didn't considering the material) but does that then give someone the right to publicly shame them for not doing something that probably never even crossed their minds in the first place? I understand, but the thing is, is that why should it have to be up for this much debate? Why should any minority who wants or thinks they deserve fair cultural representation? And why should they not get it? And why had it not already been thought of? So you know what - yes. Yes, shame on the producers for producing a show that is as inherently Jewish as Fiddler On The Roof is and not thinking to involve anyone Jewish, if that happened to be the case. |
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Post by theatremadness on Aug 26, 2019 17:07:44 GMT
It's interesting because in shows like Angels in America or La Cage, is everyone gay who plays gay characters in these? And in Fiddler - Does the person playing Tevye have to be jewish? I can tell you not all of the daughters in Fiddler are jewish and no one seems to be saying anything about that. What's interesting is one can be jewish but not look stereotypically jewish just like someone can be gay but not look stereotypically gay. It's different in a show like West Side Story or in the Heights when the character is Spanish and thus probably should look Spanish so the audience gets it. Oh my goodness. Apologies, but I don’t know how we can be going through it again with yet another post. This is why this conversation is going round in circles. No. Not all Jewish roles HAVE to be played by Jewish people. Not all gay roles have to be played by gay people. This is NOT what the debate is about!!!! Anyway, Fiddler in Chichester: Tevye not Jewish, Golde was. There is cultural representation. Fiddler in London right now: Andy Nyman, Tevye, is Jewish. There is your cultural representation. It is not about being exclusively Jewish in Jewish productions, just cultural representation either on or off stage. I don’t know any other way to explain that!! Apologies for my frustration being pointed at you showtoones, it’s not intentional or personal, but I feel it’s so important that people realise this is not at the heart of the discussion, yet most people seem to think it is without reading what’s already been posted. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 17:12:02 GMT
I'm fed up of Cameron casting people to play the Bishop of Digne in Les Mis who aren't even clergy. And I'm pretty sure Whoopi wasn't a Nun. For goodness sake this isn’t the same at all. And if you genuinely think it is then you’re also part of the problem. |
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Post by showtoones on Aug 26, 2019 17:19:46 GMT
It's interesting because in shows like Angels in America or La Cage, is everyone gay who plays gay characters in these? And in Fiddler - Does the person playing Tevye have to be jewish? I can tell you not all of the daughters in Fiddler are jewish and no one seems to be saying anything about that. What's interesting is one can be jewish but not look stereotypically jewish just like someone can be gay but not look stereotypically gay. It's different in a show like West Side Story or in the Heights when the character is Spanish and thus probably should look Spanish so the audience gets it. Oh my goodness. Apologies, but I don’t know how we can be going through it again with yet another post. This is why this conversation is going round in circles. No. Not all Jewish roles HAVE to be played by Jewish people. Not all gay roles have to be played by gay people. This is NOT what the debate is about!!!! Anyway, Fiddler in Chichester: Tevye not Jewish, Golde was. There is cultural representation. Fiddler in London right now: Andy Nyman, Tevye, is Jewish. There is your cultural representation. It is not about being exclusively Jewish in Jewish productions, just cultural representation either on or off stage. I don’t know any other way to explain that!! Apologies for my frustration being pointed at you showtoones, it’s not intentional or personal, but I feel it’s so important that people realise this is not at the heart of the discussion, yet most people seem to think it is without reading what’s already been posted. Totally understand and I was not coming at you either. This is a discussion board and we are discussing. It's an interesting debate and one that will never be solved but I'm glad to be part of the conversation. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 17:21:10 GMT
There is a big difference between 'wanting' something or thinking you 'deserve' something and actually getting it. Yes it'd be nice if they'd have done that (and tbh it is pretty silly that they didn't considering the material) but does that then give someone the right to publicly shame them for not doing something that probably never even crossed their minds in the first place? I understand, but the thing is, is that why should it have to be up for this much debate? Why should any minority who wants or thinks they deserve fair cultural representation? And why should they not get it? And why had it not already been thought of? So you know what - yes. Yes, shame on the producers for producing a show that is as inherently Jewish as Fiddler On The Roof is and not thinking to involve anyone Jewish, if that happened to be the case. You're right...shame on the producers...but now it's shame on the whole production and everyone who works on it. Now everyone is tarnished, instead of them of saying something earlier and maybe...just maybe...having something done about the situation. But lets face it in the end, is that 'really' what they wanted to achieve? |
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Post by theatremadness on Aug 26, 2019 17:31:00 GMT
I understand, but the thing is, is that why should it have to be up for this much debate? Why should any minority who wants or thinks they deserve fair cultural representation? And why should they not get it? And why had it not already been thought of? So you know what - yes. Yes, shame on the producers for producing a show that is as inherently Jewish as Fiddler On The Roof is and not thinking to involve anyone Jewish, if that happened to be the case. You're right...shame on the producers...but now it's shame on the whole production and everyone who works on it. Now everyone is tarnished, instead of them of saying something earlier and maybe...just maybe...having something done about the situation. But lets face it in the end, is that 'really' what they wanted to achieve? That is a fair and understandable concern, but outside of this board and a few conversations on twitter, I personally don't see that being the case. The only people who believe this to be true, are those who been debating "against" (for want of a better word) the original letter to The Stage. Not a single name of any actor, director, choreographer, lighting designer, set designer, sound designer etc has ever, ever been mentioned as part of this debate. Any direct contact made on social media has been to Selladoor and Selladoor only (including the managing directors of the company). I understand how tagging the show can appear to be dragging into the debate those who are not directly involved, maybe that wasn't necessary, but for the UK premier of this musical, it is a big deal, but I don't think it's tarnished the production or harmed its success. Maybe, there will be reviewers who mention this debate in their review, maybe not, that shall be seen, but I don't think anyone has been derogatory to anyone and tarnished everyone involved, as the only attention has been directed to, as I mentioned, the producers. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 17:38:58 GMT
You're right...shame on the producers...but now it's shame on the whole production and everyone who works on it. Now everyone is tarnished, instead of them of saying something earlier and maybe...just maybe...having something done about the situation. But lets face it in the end, is that 'really' what they wanted to achieve? That is a fair and understandable concern, but outside of this board and a few conversations on twitter, I personally don't see that being the case. The only people who believe this to be true, are those who been debating "against" (for want of a better word) the original letter to The Stage. Not a single name of any actor, director, choreographer, lighting designer, set designer, sound designer etc has ever, ever been mentioned as part of this debate. Any direct contact made on social media has been to Selladoor and Selladoor only (including the managing directors of the company). I understand how tagging the show can appear to be dragging into the debate those who are not directly involved, maybe that wasn't necessary, but for the UK premier of this musical, it is a big deal, but I don't think it's tarnished the production or harmed its success. Maybe, there will be reviewers who mention this debate in their review, maybe not, that shall be seen, but I don't think anyone has been derogatory to anyone and tarnished everyone involved, as the only attention has been directed to, as I mentioned, the producers. Tell that to the entire cast and crew of The Great Comet... Also (and I'm really not picking on you personally I promise lol) why not contact the producers with your (very valid) concerns IN PRIVATE! Why is it always made public via social media for the whole world to see? |
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Post by theatremadness on Aug 26, 2019 17:47:29 GMT
That is a fair and understandable concern, but outside of this board and a few conversations on twitter, I personally don't see that being the case. The only people who believe this to be true, are those who been debating "against" (for want of a better word) the original letter to The Stage. Not a single name of any actor, director, choreographer, lighting designer, set designer, sound designer etc has ever, ever been mentioned as part of this debate. Any direct contact made on social media has been to Selladoor and Selladoor only (including the managing directors of the company). I understand how tagging the show can appear to be dragging into the debate those who are not directly involved, maybe that wasn't necessary, but for the UK premier of this musical, it is a big deal, but I don't think it's tarnished the production or harmed its success. Maybe, there will be reviewers who mention this debate in their review, maybe not, that shall be seen, but I don't think anyone has been derogatory to anyone and tarnished everyone involved, as the only attention has been directed to, as I mentioned, the producers. Tell that to the entire cast and crew of The Great Comet... Also (and I'm really not picking on you personally I promise lol) why not contact the producers with your (very valid) concerns IN PRIVATE! Why is it always made public via social media for the whole world to see? I understand why you may be drawn to make that comparison, but personally I don't think it's on the same scale, or is it really the same principal. Haha, don't worry, I've never once thought you were picking on me, I know we're just having a conversation so I hope you've never felt I've been picking on you either! I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe doing it in private makes it feel like there is a shame to asking, the Jewish people should be discreetly inserted somewhere into this production quietly and without any fuss. Well maybe they wanted to make a fuss. This is not the first debate to be aired via social media and will not be the last, I don't have to tell anyone that. But it opens a dialogue, it opens conversation, it makes people think, it asks for answers, and sometimes, it's the only way to get them. |
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Post by sprampster on Aug 26, 2019 17:54:48 GMT
Just to change tact anyone here see the original March of the Falsettos at the Albery ??
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Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 18:11:18 GMT
Tell that to the entire cast and crew of The Great Comet... Also (and I'm really not picking on you personally I promise lol) why not contact the producers with your (very valid) concerns IN PRIVATE! Why is it always made public via social media for the whole world to see? I understand why you may be drawn to make that comparison, but personally I don't think it's on the same scale, or is it really the same principal. Haha, don't worry, I've never once thought you were picking on me, I know we're just having a conversation so I hope you've never felt I've been picking on you either! I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe doing it in private makes it feel like there is a shame to asking, the Jewish people should be discreetly inserted somewhere into this production quietly and without any fuss. Well maybe they wanted to make a fuss. This is not the first debate to be aired via social media and will not be the last, I don't have to tell anyone that. But it opens a dialogue, it opens conversation, it makes people think, it asks for answers, and sometimes, it's the only way to get them. It was the same thing in both cases, a producer who made a mistake (some would say by casting said person in the first place) then the whole company paid for it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 18:13:23 GMT
why not contact the producers with your (very valid) concerns IN PRIVATE! Why is it always made public via social media for the whole world to see? Precisely. That’s just one of the better ways this could have been handled. It might also have brought about real change, encouraged this production team to champion the signatories’ wider campaign, and been a positive story rather than a whiny-sounding one (as well as a potentially embarrassing one that damages their cause if it turns out there actually was a Jewish cultural consultant involved in the show). Some people here seem to think anyone having a negative response to this letter is A Bad Person against diversity and greater representation. Have you ever thought some of us could just be annoyed about this low-evidenced, rather bullying approach squandering opportunities for positive engagement with an important issue that deserves debate? |
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Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 18:30:30 GMT
why not contact the producers with your (very valid) concerns IN PRIVATE! Why is it always made public via social media for the whole world to see? Precisely. That’s just one of the better ways this could have been handled. It might also have brought about real change, encouraged this production team to champion the signatories’ wider campaign, and been a positive story rather than a whiny-sounding one (as well as a potentially embarrassing one that damages their cause if it turns out there actually was a Jewish cultural consultant involved in the show). Some people here seem to think anyone having a negative response to this letter is A Bad Person against diversity and greater representation. Have you ever thought some of us could just be annoyed about this low-evidenced, rather bullying approach squandering opportunities for positive engagement with an important issue that deserves debate? We seem to live in a time where the only way people think they can achieve anything is by public shaming someone regardless of the fact that they may or may not have an actual grievance. I'd have had FAR more (actually 'some') respect for this person if he'd have stepped up early on in the process and inspired/created some real change instead of (as you point out) kicking a hornets nest with little to no thought for the consequences and looking like a bitter 'whiny little *****'. |
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Post by sf on Aug 26, 2019 18:38:41 GMT
I'd have had FAR more (actually 'some') respect for this person if he'd have stepped up early on in the process and inspired/created some real change instead of (as you point out) kicking a hornets nest with little to no thought for the consequences and looking like a bitter 'whiny little *****'. "This person" isn't just one person. The letter has more than twenty signatories, not all of whom by any means are on social media. And it's hardly the first time a group of people have lodged a protest by writing an open letter to a newspaper. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 18:43:22 GMT
Maybe doing it in private makes it feel like there is a shame to asking, the Jewish people should be discreetly inserted somewhere into this production quietly and without any fuss. Well maybe they wanted to make a fuss. This is not the first debate to be aired via social media and will not be the last, I don't have to tell anyone that. But it opens a dialogue, it opens conversation, it makes people think, it asks for answers, and sometimes, it's the only way to get them. Doing it in private first actually gives more impetus to the complaint, because it gives the recipient a chance to respond honestly without the inevitable defensiveness that results from being called out in public. If the private response is inadequate then by all means take it public, but sometimes taking the high road of dealing with something quietly and without fuss will lead to more gain in the long run. And it is a lot about timing as well - these concerns can and should have been raised months ago, much earlier in the process, when something could have been done to rectify the situation for this production. Why that didn't happen, I don't know, but the unfortunate timing of the complaint being made public is going to create an impression that the authors are trying to harm the production itself (and by corollary those involved) even if that is not actually their intention, so it detracts from their message. I don't think their message is wrong or unimportant, but I do think it is badly phrased and badly timed, which has made this into a mess it shouldn't have been, and rather taken away from what they are trying to say. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 18:44:22 GMT
I'd have had FAR more (actually 'some') respect for this person if he'd have stepped up early on in the process and inspired/created some real change instead of (as you point out) kicking a hornets nest with little to no thought for the consequences and looking like a bitter 'whiny little *****'. "This person" isn't just one person. The letter has more than twenty signatories, not all of whom by any means are on social media. And it's hardly the first time a group of people have lodged a protest by writing an open letter to a newspaper. My point still stands. Next time I have a problem at work I'll just write an open letter to the Daily Mail instead of just going to talk to my boss about it. As a gay man I also wouldn't care if I went to see a production of My Beautiful Laundrette if there were no gays involved in the production, but that's just me x |
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Post by sprampster on Aug 26, 2019 18:53:30 GMT
It saddens me that people think William Finn would allow a company to stage this classic if he didn’t think it was in safe hands
Plus so may people jumping on band wagons when not really even knowing the show and it’s history
I for one am so looking forward to it and believe it’s in very safe hands
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Post by Seriously on Aug 26, 2019 19:10:12 GMT
I don't remember people asking how many of the Nuns in "The Sound of Music" were Catholic. Or how many of the Klansmen in "Jerry Springer" were bigots.
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Post by sf on Aug 26, 2019 19:40:13 GMT
Sorry, no. An open letter is a valid form of protest. It's a form of address with a very long history, and using an open letter to put a conversation into the public sphere is a defendable choice - particularly in this case, given that we're in a cultural/political moment in which our main party of opposition has been very publicly embroiled in a row about anti-Semitism for at least a couple of years, racism is moving inexorably towards the political mainstream (if it isn't there already), and in which the current US President repeatedly pushes anti-Semitic stereotypes. We're at a point where this particular minority must be feeling considerable pressure; in that context, it's hardly surprising to see a group of Jewish artists take a public stand in an attempt to open up a conversation about representation.
Next time I have a problem at work I'll just write an open letter to the Daily Mail instead of just going to talk to my boss about it.
Not the same thing at all, but of course you know that.
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Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 19:56:37 GMT
Sorry, no. An open letter is a valid form of protest. It's a form of address with a very long history, and using an open letter to put a conversation into the public sphere is a defendable choice - particularly in this case, given that we're in a cultural/political moment in which our main party of opposition has been very publicly embroiled in a row about anti-Semitism for at least a couple of years, racism is moving inexorably towards the political mainstream (if it isn't there already), and in which the current US President repeatedly pushes anti-Semitic stereotypes. We're at a point where this particular minority must be feeling considerable pressure; in that context, it's hardly surprising to see a group of Jewish artists take a public stand in an attempt to open up a conversation about representation.
Next time I have a problem at work I'll just write an open letter to the Daily Mail instead of just going to talk to my boss about it.
Not the same thing at all, but of course you know that.
It's a very complex issue that we all have different views on. Mine = The whole 'anti' anything movement seems to require complicit worship in every way or you are given a label and usually a bad one. I don't believe not agreeing with what is going on in Israel makes me anti-Semitic, nor do I believe it makes certain members of the Labour Party anti-Semitic either. I am allowed to have an opinion of a subject that you don't agree with without being labelled. I don't hate EVERY Jewish person on earth because of it, honestly until today I can't remember the last time I even thought of anything to do with Jewish people and frankly I doubt think they are on most people's radar very often either. As a gay man I am apparently supposed to be outraged every single time a trans person clicks their heels and decides something that wasn't offensive yesterday is offensive today. But you know what I don't, nor am I even going to pretend I am. This whole daily outrage about the next thing that's in the press for a hot minute spearheaded by social media is literally sending everyone on the planet crazy and it needs to stop. If you have a complaint, make it to the person you have a complaint against and deal with it x |
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Post by musicalmarge on Aug 27, 2019 9:24:20 GMT
"This person" isn't just one person. The letter has more than twenty signatories, not all of whom by any means are on social media. And it's hardly the first time a group of people have lodged a protest by writing an open letter to a newspaper. My point still stands. Next time I have a problem at work I'll just write an open letter to the Daily Mail instead of just going to talk to my boss about it. As a gay man I also wouldn't care if I went to see a production of My Beautiful Laundrette if there were no gays involved in the production, but that's just me x THIS!!! |
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Post by sf on Aug 27, 2019 9:47:32 GMT
I can't remember the last time I even thought of anything to do with Jewish people and frankly I doubt think they are on most people's radar very often either. ...and given the recent - documented - rise in anti-Semitism, that's part of the reason a public conversation about representation and identity is so necessary. |
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