Protests

[oxfordsimon]

I really don't want to get dragged into a dispute over statistics.

But there is a big difference between those who enter the country and immediately enter the asylum system and those who enter the country and avoid all contact with the state. The first show up in statistics, the others don't.

And you should not conflate the two groups.

There is clearly exploitation going on and the authorities here, in France and in Albania must do all they can to crush the groups running these routes.

[wiggymess]

It's exhausting how often the goalposts are moved.

One minute someone who posts constantly on the topic is suddenly "past caring about what most of the internet has to say" and now when challenged on your statement, suddenly we're apparently getting 'dragged' into a dispute over statistics.
People claim they want an adult conversation about this but once again it's anything but.

When so many asylum claims were processed as granted, it is simply not true to say that many don't fall under asylum rules.

[aspieandy]

This goes back a long way, of course.

The 58 Chinese who died at Dover in 2000 had paid £20,0000 each to smuggler gangs (or maybe their families did). They flew into Europe and died in a Dutch container. They hoped to be buying a  new life.

That's obv. different to human trafficking which is based in exploitation, both in the crossing itself and in subsequent work/accomodation.

On nail techs; you can get a working visa as a salon manager though not as a tech.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_lorry_deaths

[aspieandy]

Aug 12, 2024 12:27:07 GMT wiggymess said:

It's exhausting how often the goalposts are moved.

One minute someone who posts constantly on the topic is suddenly "past caring about what most of the internet has to say" and now when challenged on your statement, suddenly we're apparently getting 'dragged' into a dispute over statistics.
People claim they want an adult conversation about this but once again it's anything but.

You seem to be conflating two posters.

If you're exhausted, take a break. It's a very warm day. Drink more liquids.

[wiggymess]

Aug 12, 2024 12:37:33 GMT aspieandy said:

Aug 12, 2024 12:27:07 GMT wiggymess said:

It's exhausting how often the goalposts are moved.

One minute someone who posts constantly on the topic is suddenly "past caring about what most of the internet has to say" and now when challenged on your statement, suddenly we're apparently getting 'dragged' into a dispute over statistics.
People claim they want an adult conversation about this but once again it's anything but.

You seem to be conflating two posters.

If you're exhausted, take a break. It's a very warm day. Drink more liquids.

Read the post properly - no conflation.

And despite your glib attempt at a joke - I am indeed completely exhausted by this debate and the lack of human empathy people have all been influenced into. Last week was a very very dark week for me and having to see friends in such a state of panic, upset and genuine fear of entering their own town centre - in the town they born and grew up in - isn't something that will ever leave me.
So when this debate falls predictably back to people as numbers, statistics and a contribution (positive or negative) towards GDP that is something I will always disagree with. I believe we all have a responsibility and really hope people consider their perspective and begin to recognise the human story at the heart of this, but I fear that probably won't happen.

I'll leave my contribution to this thread there I think.

[aspieandy]

One or two seem a little judgy though most of what I have read has been a civilised exchange of information.

I imagine you would agree that the mods would not have it any other way.

[Phantom of London]

Aug 12, 2024 12:47:29 GMT aspieandy said:

One or two seem a little judgy though most of what I have read has been a civilised exchange of information.

I imagine you would agree that the mods would not have it any other way.

One possible solution on Cannabis and that is to Legalise. 

And from the taxation raised can be used for good, as maybe helping people with addiction issues and homelessness. 

[shownut]

Aug 12, 2024 14:23:30 GMT Phantom of London said:

Aug 12, 2024 12:47:29 GMT aspieandy said:

One or two seem a little judgy though most of what I have read has been a civilised exchange of information.

I imagine you would agree that the mods would not have it any other way.

One possible solution on Cannabis and that is to Legalise. 

And from the taxation raised can be used for good, as maybe helping people with addiction issues and homelessness. 

Oh, please no. The smell of it is disgusting and anyone who has been anywhere near the theatre-district in NYC this past year might tell you what a nuisance it has become. 

[oxfordsimon]

Aug 12, 2024 12:27:07 GMT wiggymess said:

It's exhausting how often the goalposts are moved.

One minute someone who posts constantly on the topic is suddenly "past caring about what most of the internet has to say" and now when challenged on your statement, suddenly we're apparently getting 'dragged' into a dispute over statistics.
People claim they want an adult conversation about this but once again it's anything but.

When so many asylum claims were processed as granted, it is simply not true to say that many don't fall under asylum rules.

Those statistics come from unverified sources associated with activists. They may be accurate but the data set and context are not available for examination. I reserve the right to be sceptical when there is a clear agenda at play.

The point still remains that those figures only relate to those who enter the asylum system not those who don't. So the full picture is unclear at best.

Do I want to see all asylum seekers to have speedy assessments and to be granted right to stay where they meet the criteria? Absolutely.

Do I believe there is a lot of trafficking and exploitation going on leading to an increase in modern slavery? Absolutely. And those caught up in that should be treated with compassion and kindness. And those caught running these horrific schemes should be arrested and condemned to sentences running into decades.

Do I also believe that there are those who are seeking to enter the country for other reasons that don't meet any of the legal tests that require the UK state to grant them right to stay or similar? Yes. And we should have swift mechanisms to return such people to their home nations.

The system is too slow, too unresponsive and open, in some cases, to manipulation.

It needs reform to serve the rights of asylum seekers as quickly and efficiently as possible. To treat victims of trafficking with the care they deserve. To ensure there are legal routes for controlled migration. And to allow for the swift removal of those who seek to exploit the system and who break our laws.

That is not going to be easy to achieve.

[aspieandy]

Aug 12, 2024 14:23:30 GMT Phantom of London said:

Aug 12, 2024 12:47:29 GMT aspieandy said:

I imagine you would agree that the mods would not have it any other way.

One possible solution on Cannabis and that is to Legalise. 

And from the taxation raised can be used for good, as maybe helping people with addiction issues and homelessness. 

I have seen it make just huge differences to people living with acute pain (MS, for example). Genuinely life changing; from bed-ridden to walking to local shops.

This is legal (prescribed) medication available in the UK. Industrial strength, indeed. You just can't get it on the NHS, not for reasons of cost but for the politics.

And so it's been yet another boon for the private sector - you pay £a few hundred for a chat on the phone with a doctor, the prescripion arrives in the post, and then you order online.  That would be my first step.

Paging Wes Streeting ...

[interval99]

Wes Streeting is likely still busy checking all his twitter/X feed to delete any more tweets where he openly states about pushing a journalist and others he despises under a train.
But of course he can just apologise for such words, claim it was provocation from the writer and carry on being a minister.
Others now get two years sentences for similar threats done in same heat of the moment response and no recourse of expressing regret.
Neither are excusable but just one of the way too many examples of the same offence being dealt with and viewed differently depending on how it fits two tier kier stalin new rule of oppression.

[theglenbucklaird]

Aug 12, 2024 19:26:32 GMT interval99 said:

Wes Streeting is likely still busy checking all his twitter/X feed to delete any more tweets where he openly states about pushing a journalist and others he despises under a train.
But of course he can just apologise for such words, claim it was provocation from the writer and carry on being a minister.
Others now get two years sentences for similar threats done in same heat of the moment response and no recourse of expressing regret.
Neither are excusable but just one of the way too many examples of the same offence being dealt with and viewed differently depending on how it fits two tier kier stalin new rule of oppression.

Keir Stalin??!! I’m using that one

[jojo]

Aug 12, 2024 14:23:30 GMT Phantom of London said:

Aug 12, 2024 12:47:29 GMT aspieandy said:

One or two seem a little judgy though most of what I have read has been a civilised exchange of information.

I imagine you would agree that the mods would not have it any other way.

One possible solution on Cannabis and that is to Legalise. 

And from the taxation raised can be used for good, as maybe helping people with addiction issues and homelessness. 

But that would be sensible. A well regulated market (phase it in if you aren't sure how it would work) is the best way to reduce the power of the criminal gangs and all of the problems that are created by prohibition, not the substance itself, while keep people more safe, and raising tax revenue that can be used to tackle the problems of drug mis-use far more effectively. Not to mention freeing up police time and not criminalising people who, in some cases, just want something to help them cope with chronic pain or conditions such as MS. 

In the short-term I'd settle for the NHS being more sensible about prescribing cannabis derived medication. The only people who benefit from the current system are the drug gangs and the media outlets that rely on frightening their readers to drive traffic, but the latter find it harder to complain about old ladies with MS wanting pain relief, or children with severe epilepsy getting their lives back.

[Phantom of London]

Okay thanks for that.

I have two separate mates who are police officers, they don’t know each other but they say the same same thing being that the police have never lost the war on drugs, to lose a war, you have to fight it in the first place. You can ban alcohol, the problem wouldn’t disappear, you would have a lot of people going blind, so legalising cannabis you can also control the quality, therefore not having people having schizophrenia, which is a horrific condition - which cannabis is linked to. Or any other condition

A lot of youth are doing nitrous oxide now, I wouldn’t want to do this myself though, but I would say it is a sensible lifestyle choice compared to other alternatives, I just with the youth were more responsible with there litter though!

[danb]

I think we should expect some horrific figures re:cannabis & psychosis from the states soon. The smell in Times Square is not just a bit of weed or resin; It is the thick, strong stench of skunk, linked to all sorts of mental health issues & disassociation from reality. Some of the characters we experienced were definitely in the throws of psychotic episodes, whilst the world went on around them. It would need real control if it were to be decriminalised over here.

[aspieandy]

A, perhaps diminishing, problem for the UK is it's been progandised half to death against legalisation for decades. At least we can still gain significant tax benefits from alcohol, tobacco and opioid use/harm/addiction. Hey, at least it's a contributon to the price society pays for use/harm/addiction of that triple sandwich.

Of course, you don't legalise everything all at once for all purposes, current policy is just that. The experience in Germany, Denmark and several other countries in the EU, together with the majority of US states, is going to be helpful if Newish Labour want to expand their revenue base, while reducing the prison populaton and even small boat crossings. Looked at that way, Rachel Reeves could be popping into the corner shop for large skins within a year or so:

In the United States, cannabis is legal in 38 of 50 states for medical use and 24 states for recreational use

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_U.S._jurisdiction

[jojo]

Aug 13, 2024 17:30:03 GMT Phantom of London said:

Okay thanks for that.

I have two separate mates who are police officers, they don’t know each other but they say the same same thing being that the police have never lost the war on drugs, to lose a war, you have to fight it in the first place. You can ban alcohol, the problem wouldn’t disappear, you would have a lot of people going blind, so legalising cannabis you can also control the quality, therefore not having people having schizophrenia, which is a horrific condition - which cannabis is linked to. Or any other condition

A lot of youth are doing nitrous oxide now, I wouldn’t want to do this myself though, but I would say it is a sensible lifestyle choice compared to other alternatives, I just with the youth were more responsible with there litter though!

BIB - I think that's the bit that fully persuaded me of the problem of the current ban. When alcohol was prohibited in the US, the bootleggers weren't making low alcohol beer. They were making strong spirits that too often contained dangerous levels of methanol.

If cannabis were to be legalised AND REGULATED, then just as we require labelling that shows the percentage alcohol, and a requirement that the end product doesn't include anti-freeze. It seems that there has been a bit of an arms war when it comes to the strength of cannabis that comes via criminal gangs, which isn't just about it being stronger, but about using strains that contain more of the chemicals that are linked to psychosis. And that's before we even consider the impurities.

It's not that a regulated market eliminates all health risks associated with cannabis use, but it would definitely reduce them, while also reducing the power of criminal gangs to inflict misery.

Nitrous oxide use isn't without health (and littering) problems, but I have enormous sympathy for the public health professionals trying to communicate this to a society that gave up believing public health advice on recreational drug use several decades ago.

[freedomrights]

It just shows the authorities can act when they want to do, the same as when they threw the book at the 2011 rioters. Also the inconsistencies in how the government and police react to things like JSO they can let them disrupt ordinary people's lives for days. But if they were blocking the route a Govt Minister or working royal were taking I guess they would be moved on.

Also if these people from both sides can be charged why didn't the powers that be act as fast after the assaults at Manchester Airport. Charge the two Asian guys who punched the policewomen and the policeman who kicked one of the guys in the head - all should have been charged with assault and it made public.

[lynette]

Someone has been put in prison for knocking down a policeperson at one of the riots but we all saw on the video the guy knock down that policewoman at Manchester airport and he isn’t even on remand. When the discrepancies are there for all to see, then how can we support the system? 

[n1david]

Aug 15, 2024 19:56:18 GMT freedomrights said:

It just shows the authorities can act when they want to do, the same as when they threw the book at the 2011 rioters. Also the inconsistencies in how the government and police react to things like JSO they can let them disrupt ordinary people's lives for days. But if they were blocking the route a Govt Minister or working royal were taking I guess they would be moved on.

Also if these people from both sides can be charged why didn't the powers that be act as fast after the assaults at Manchester Airport. Charge the two Asian guys who punched the policewomen and the policeman who kicked one of the guys in the head - all should have been charged with assault and it made public.

The difference, as I understand it, is that the people on which they are moving quickly, are pleading guilty and therefore they do not need a full trial. If someone pleads not guilty, or the situation is perceived as being more complex, then the process needs to move to a full trial, which under current court conditions can take over a year thanks to years of disinvestment in the court system. The only cases which can be dealt with quickly are those that are very straightforward.

[aspieandy]

Aug 15, 2024 21:53:13 GMT n1david said:

Aug 15, 2024 19:56:18 GMT freedomrights said:

It just shows the authorities can act when they want to do, the same as when they threw the book at the 2011 rioters. Also the inconsistencies in how the government and police react to things like JSO they can let them disrupt ordinary people's lives for days. But if they were blocking the route a Govt Minister or working royal were taking I guess they would be moved on.

Also if these people from both sides can be charged why didn't the powers that be act as fast after the assaults at Manchester Airport. Charge the two Asian guys who punched the policewomen and the policeman who kicked one of the guys in the head - all should have been charged with assault and it made public.

The difference, as I understand it, is that the people on which they are moving quickly, are pleading guilty and therefore they do not need a full trial. If someone pleads not guilty, or the situation is perceived as being more complex, then the process needs to move to a full trial, which under current court conditions can take over a year thanks to years of disinvestment in the court system. The only cases which can be dealt with quickly are those that are very straightforward.

Plus, some of this will (very) likely be performative; long sentences followed by (very) early release.

[hannechalk]

Aug 16, 2024 9:01:42 GMT aspieandy said:

Aug 15, 2024 21:53:13 GMT n1david said:

The difference, as I understand it, is that the people on which they are moving quickly, are pleading guilty and therefore they do not need a full trial. If someone pleads not guilty, or the situation is perceived as being more complex, then the process needs to move to a full trial, which under current court conditions can take over a year thanks to years of disinvestment in the court system. The only cases which can be dealt with quickly are those that are very straightforward.

Plus, some of this will (very) likely be performative; long sentences followed by (very) early release.

We can only hope that even with early release it will have scared them enough not to do anything like it again.

Even with early release it will remain on their record - it will affect their lives for years to come with jobs etc. Most companies Google prospective employees now.

[aspieandy]

Kids still get wiped at 18 or 3 years after conviction, depending.

[lichtie]

This page - www.gov.uk/government/publications/dbs-filtering-guidance/dbs-filtering-guide - would seem to indicate that even under 18s still carry any custodial convictions on a DBS record.

[aspieandy]

Aug 16, 2024 13:36:56 GMT lichtie said:

This page - www.gov.uk/government/publications/dbs-filtering-guidance/dbs-filtering-guide - would seem to indicate that even under 18s still carry any custodial convictions on a DBS record.

That's not my reading.