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Post by Jan on Aug 6, 2024 8:07:14 GMT
So we have the answer. He made things worse. What he's doing, his actions, aren't the problem. It's what he's saying and the way he's framing things that is. He either lacks the skill or the advice to present things in such a way that it deescalates the problem. I mean just on a side issue in that first address to the nation why mention bringing in facial recognition technology as a response ? Immediately he alienates the civil liberties supporters who are numerous and span the political spectrum and it's even banned in the EU. Why even mention it ? Why fight that battle ? He really seems disappointingly inept. Intrigued to know what you would do differently if it were you? There is a massive issue to address and the answers seem few & far between. The far right have seen an opportunity to attack, and are testing the waters to see how far they can go. The easily manipulated are triggered by the ‘right’ buttons that they press and voila they get the scenes they need to put Starmer in a difficult position. Do what they would do if it were a load of ‘lefties’ causing trouble (water cannons, rubber bullets, civil right removal etc) or just let it play out? I probably wouldn't "do" anything different - the heavy policing, the emergency courts etc. Starmer's response on that makes him sound no different to a right-wing Conservative Home Secretary. But he should have "presented" it in the same way he did for BLM - condemn the violence but say he understood there was an underlying issue around immigration that people were concerned about, that the Conservatives had screwed up on that, that it would take time to fix, but as per his manifesto he was committed to stopping the boats. So you try to calm things and detach some of the peaceful protestors from the lunatics. As it is he gave the impression he regarded everyone involved as "far right" and that he had chosen a side (especially in an interview he gave). So his opposition is much bigger than it might have been and people with genuine concerns have been alienated by him and feel allied with the actual far right. There is a wider issue due to years of relentless identity politics promoted by the left. In the Manchester Airport incident there were white policeman in conflict with Asians. This is automatically interpreted by that community as a racist incident and it set off protests. The truth which emerged later was somewhat more complicated. What is emerging now for the first time is white identity politics where any attack on white people by non-whites will be interpreted as racist too, whether it actually is or not, and sections of the white community will protest as a group. That, I think, you'll just have to get used to. Having said that the numbers actually involved in the actual violence are very small in terms of the population - a few hundred of far right and a lesser number of MDL. Each incident gets massively amplified by the press so it seems a bigger than it is. We've had riots before, we'll have them again, when the weather gets cooler and the football season starts they'll stop. |
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Post by punxsutawney on Aug 6, 2024 8:32:21 GMT
Intrigued to know what you would do differently if it were you? There is a massive issue to address and the answers seem few & far between. The far right have seen an opportunity to attack, and are testing the waters to see how far they can go. The easily manipulated are triggered by the ‘right’ buttons that they press and voila they get the scenes they need to put Starmer in a difficult position. Do what they would do if it were a load of ‘lefties’ causing trouble (water cannons, rubber bullets, civil right removal etc) or just let it play out? As it is he gave the impression he regarded everyone involved as "far right" and that he had chosen a side (especially in an interview he gave). So his opposition is much bigger than it might have been and people with genuine concerns have been alienated by him and feel allied with the actual far right. Everyone involved in these protests *is* far-right. They are led by Tommy Robinson, and the event that triggered them didn't even involve an immigrant. Nobody who is out on the streets even peacefully cheering for "our country back" etc has "legitimate concerns" or the like, they are people whose sole concern is ending migration and driving out refugees and legal immigrants just as much as they are illegal immigrants. |
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Post by Jan on Aug 6, 2024 8:46:30 GMT
As it is he gave the impression he regarded everyone involved as "far right" and that he had chosen a side (especially in an interview he gave). So his opposition is much bigger than it might have been and people with genuine concerns have been alienated by him and feel allied with the actual far right. Everyone involved in these protests *is* far-right. They are led by Tommy Robinson, and the event that triggered them didn't even involve an immigrant. Nobody who is out on the streets even peacefully cheering for "our country back" etc has "legitimate concerns" or the like, they are people whose sole concern is ending migration and driving out refugees and legal immigrants just as much as they are illegal immigrants. I have explained why they could have been triggered by an event that (as it turned out) didn't involve an immigrant by referring to what happened at Manchester Airport. You asserting that an entire group of people who are "out on the streets" have a single viewpoint is no more correct than ascribing a single viewpoint to any other racial or religious group or more relevantly to the Gaza protestors - not all of them are anti-Semites are they ?. Saying people peacefully protesting (not rioting) in Hartlepool in particular don't have legitimate concerns is a stretch. Stopping illegal immigration by stopping the boats is Labour policy. It is literally there in their manifesto. You voted for it. |
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Post by punxsutawney on Aug 6, 2024 8:47:59 GMT
Everyone involved in these protests *is* far-right. They are led by Tommy Robinson, and the event that triggered them didn't even involve an immigrant. Nobody who is out on the streets even peacefully cheering for "our country back" etc has "legitimate concerns" or the like, they are people whose sole concern is ending migration and driving out refugees and legal immigrants just as much as they are illegal immigrants. I have explained why they were triggered by an event that (as it turned out) didn't involve an immigrant by referring to what happened at Manchester Airport. Stopping illegal immigration by stopping the boats is Labour policy. It is literally there in their manifesto. You voted for it. I didn't vote for it, it's one of many reasons I didn't vote Labour, but thank you for that oddly presumptuous response. |
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Post by Jan on Aug 6, 2024 9:02:37 GMT
I have explained why they were triggered by an event that (as it turned out) didn't involve an immigrant by referring to what happened at Manchester Airport. Stopping illegal immigration by stopping the boats is Labour policy. It is literally there in their manifesto. You voted for it. I didn't vote for it, it's one of many reasons I didn't vote Labour, but thank you for that oddly presumptuous response. And thank you for your oddly presumptuous opinion that everyone out on the streets protesting is far right which is akin to saying that everyone on the Gaza protests are anti-Semites. Some are, some aren't. |
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Post by punxsutawney on Aug 6, 2024 9:22:33 GMT
I didn't vote for it, it's one of many reasons I didn't vote Labour, but thank you for that oddly presumptuous response. And thank you for your oddly presumptuous opinion that everyone out on the streets protesting is far right which is akin to saying that everyone on the Gaza protests are anti-Semites. Some are, some aren't. You stated something that was objectively untrue as a fact, not really comparable to me stating something which can't be proven either way as my opinion. This entire situation comes from a place of the political establishment failing for decades, we just disagree how. I think that there has been a systematic failure to address how migration is a net positive to this country and to attack the stigmas and misconceptions put forward by figures such as Farage, Robinson, et al. The individuals out protesting have been failed by this, I am sure many are not fundamentally rotten people, but they have been misled and manipulated by conmen into supporting and promoting what is often far-right rhetoric, because nobody has ever presented them with a progressive patriotic alternative that focuses on our strengths, including migration. |
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Post by anthony40 on Aug 6, 2024 9:34:41 GMT
For various reasons I haven't had the opportunity to see much news of later so what I know of what has occurred I have seen on Twitter (X).
Personally, I find this very unsettling and upsetting.
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Post by aspieandy on Aug 6, 2024 10:16:29 GMT
These aren’t protests. They’re barely even riots. It’s domestic terrorism being carried out by white supremacists. I don't see much media. Has there been many bad injures and deaths since the little girls were murdered, or since Axel Rudakubana was charged? |
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Post by parsley1 on Aug 6, 2024 12:19:29 GMT
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Post by punxsutawney on Aug 6, 2024 12:31:43 GMT
While this is obviously an incorrect target and they should be condemned, the protest was ultimately peaceful and it should not be the police's place to intervene. The far-right riots of the last few days have been violent, including attacks of minorities, acts of arson, and looting amongst other things, which inevitably warrants a totally different police response. When we see clips of the police standing aside and watching these thugs setting hotels alight and burning cars, how is it an even slightly believable accusation that the police are treating them harsher than peaceful protesters who mostly simply march and hold placards? |
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Post by parsley1 on Aug 6, 2024 12:36:44 GMT
While this is obviously an incorrect target and they should be condemned, the protest was ultimately peaceful and it should not be the police's place to intervene. The far-right riots of the last few days have been violent, including attacks of minorities, acts of arson, and looting amongst other things, which inevitably warrants a totally different police response. When we see clips of the police standing aside and watching these thugs setting hotels alight and burning cars, how is it an even slightly believable accusation that the police are treating them harsher than peaceful protesters who mostly simply march and hold placards? Ask a Jewish person in London How they feel about many of the aforementioned protests You make the error of comparing I am not comparing protests Setting fire to things and rioting is illegal and should be punished The point some people are making is that different protests need different approaches Instead certain demonstrations have a blind eye approach taken to them Being made to feel unsafe in a verbal or loudly confrontational way Might not be overtly breaking the law But it leads to clear divisions in the London community and beyond And it is that sort of insidious attitude which leads to breakdown and disorder when taken out of context and to the extreme by those intent on breaking the law |
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Protests
Aug 6, 2024 12:40:58 GMT
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Post by parsley1 on Aug 6, 2024 12:40:58 GMT
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Protests
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Post by parsley1 on Aug 6, 2024 12:49:34 GMT
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Post by aspieandy on Aug 6, 2024 12:52:48 GMT
Fwiw, I saw the Gaza ceasefire march on Saturday - hard to miss as I was going to a matinee on Haymarket.
I was suprised the slices of the snaking mass I saw were majority female - equally groups of friends and groups of mothers with kids. Surprisingly young. Obv. many men as well. This was mostly along the Piccadilly section.
There is definitely anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist sentiment. I'd be surprised at anti-Semitism given the Jewish blocs also on these marches. They seem to see the enemy only as (radical) Zionism.
They seem to have a more nuanced, less malleable grasp of the politics of Israeli society than many in the West have. Including knowledge of the scale of anti-Netanyahu and anti-coalition/Gov protests in Tel Aviv. And, of course, anti-Zionism.
Kids were so cute, behaving so well in the sun on a long walk. I found it rather dignified.
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Post by punxsutawney on Aug 6, 2024 12:53:53 GMT
While this is obviously an incorrect target and they should be condemned, the protest was ultimately peaceful and it should not be the police's place to intervene. The far-right riots of the last few days have been violent, including attacks of minorities, acts of arson, and looting amongst other things, which inevitably warrants a totally different police response. When we see clips of the police standing aside and watching these thugs setting hotels alight and burning cars, how is it an even slightly believable accusation that the police are treating them harsher than peaceful protesters who mostly simply march and hold placards? Ask a Jewish person in London How they feel about many of the aforementioned protests You make the error of comparing I am not comparing protests Setting fire to things and rioting is illegal and should be punished The point some people are making is that different protests need different approaches Instead certain demonstrations have a blind eye approach taken to them Being made to feel unsafe in a verbal or loudly confrontational way Might not be overtly breaking the law But it leads to clear divisions in the London community and beyond And it is that sort of insidious attitude which leads to breakdown and disorder when taken out of context and to the extreme by those intent on breaking the law The discussion is about "two-tier policing", that innately compares protests. What is punishable about the pro-Palestine protests at present? Any anti-Semitic remarks should of course be punished accordingly, but how will hands-on policing achieve that any differently to what is the current strategy? There's certainly nothing like the recent events that would require more severe policing. Criminalising peaceful protest because some people don't agree with the topic at hand will lead to breakdown and disorder, and that appears to be the only real suggestion to "solve" so-called two-tier policing. |
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Post by punxsutawney on Aug 6, 2024 12:55:07 GMT
Fwiw, I saw the Gaza ceasefire march on Saturday - hard to miss as I was going to a matinee on Haymarket. I was suprised the slices of the snaking mass I saw were majority female - equally groups of friends and groups of mothers with kids. Surprisingly young. Obv. many men as well. There is definitely anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist sentiment. I'd be surprised at anti-Semitism given the Jewish blocs also on these marches. They seem to see the enemy only as (radical) Zionism. These seems to have a more subtle, less malleable grasp of the politics of Israeli society than many in the West have. Including knowledge of the scale of anti-Netanyahu and anti-coalition/Gov protests in Tel Aviv. Kids were so cute. I found it rather dignified. This is often the case, obviously occasional bad actors do exist but even they rarely reach the sort of violent behaviour of the weekend which causes a threat at large to passersby. |
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Post by aspieandy on Aug 6, 2024 13:02:17 GMT
From what I saw, it is almost entirely self-policing. Not that it was needed.
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Post by apubleed on Aug 6, 2024 15:43:29 GMT
And thank you for your oddly presumptuous opinion that everyone out on the streets protesting is far right which is akin to saying that everyone on the Gaza protests are anti-Semites. Some are, some aren't. You stated something that was objectively untrue as a fact, not really comparable to me stating something which can't be proven either way as my opinion. This entire situation comes from a place of the political establishment failing for decades, we just disagree how. I think that there has been a systematic failure to address how migration is a net positive to this country and to attack the stigmas and misconceptions put forward by figures such as Farage, Robinson, et al. The individuals out protesting have been failed by this, I am sure many are not fundamentally rotten people, but they have been misled and manipulated by conmen into supporting and promoting what is often far-right rhetoric, because nobody has ever presented them with a progressive patriotic alternative that focuses on our strengths, including migration. I think the key phrase you've used here is net positive because it implies there are both positive and negative aspects of migration, but on overall balance it's positive. This could be a reasonable and uncontroversial opinion to hold, although I would ask what are you implying the negative aspects of migration are then and to whom do they effect? |
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Post by jojo on Aug 6, 2024 15:52:09 GMT
Xenophobia and the desire to blame the 'other' for our own dissatisfaction is as old as time. This particular bout, IMO, has been brewing, by design by certain groups, for a few years. Almost no-one was bothered about immigration or Turkey joining the EU until the Brexit referendum and all of the money and energy that went into getting that particular tax dodge for the super-rich off-shore tax dodgers over the line. Eight years on and Turkey still are no-where near joining the EU, we've relinquished our ability to return channel migrants to France, and it made us poorer.
Instead of showing some humility, the charlatans that wrote cheques they knew could not be cashed double-down. We're told our bad fortunes are not the consequences of our own actions, but actually the fault of immigrants and the solutions offered are progressively more mad, expensive and right-wing. And they would have worked if it weren't for those treacherous lefty lawyers (and cyclists). "Just one more heave to the right" shout the headlines from newspapers owned by foreign nationals, as the government panders more and more to the right wing press and alienates a large chunk of their own supporters to the point they lose the general election to a more moderate/left-wing party.
All might seem lost, but no - there's a leadership election for the Conservatives. What's needed to solve our woes (according to certain vocal commentators) is a proper conservative who will call in the Royal Navy to sink the small boats, ban the RNLI from saving foreign lives at sea, and finally - a proper Brexit.
In the midst of this tragedy strikes. Normal people are upset, but for some it's an opportunity. They don't care about the feelings of the victims and their families, or a small matter like the truth.
So here we are. Tommy Robinson is sharing his suggestions on locations to express 'legitimate concern'. People's homes are being trashed so that bricks can be lobbed at Mosques, rioters had to be chased out of a church graveyard to stop them from breaking-up headstones to use as weapons in their sincerely held defence of Christianity, and groups of angry men are dragging people from cars if they fail their ethnicity checks. They are setting fire to hotels with staff and residents still inside, destroying the Citizen's Advice Bureau and a library and smashing windows of the remaining businesses struggling to cling on in the high street - all in the name of preserving our way of life.
In large parts of the country anyone with an accent or darker skin is terrified to leave home. In some cases staying at home is not an option because they are being terrorised there. It's a disgrace and anyone thinking of excusing it deserves contempt. Maybe on the first day a few people could be excused for not understanding what they were getting into, but not now.
I've been reading reports from the courts. I think as word gets out that the magistrates are not messing about (or granting bail to anyone over 18 as far as I can tell) then things should peter out. It seems at least one online agitator has been arrested, so it will be interesting to see how many more of them they get in the coming weeks. Unfortunately the harm to communities will linger.
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Protests
Aug 6, 2024 16:12:46 GMT
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Post by parsley1 on Aug 6, 2024 16:12:46 GMT
You stated something that was objectively untrue as a fact, not really comparable to me stating something which can't be proven either way as my opinion. This entire situation comes from a place of the political establishment failing for decades, we just disagree how. I think that there has been a systematic failure to address how migration is a net positive to this country and to attack the stigmas and misconceptions put forward by figures such as Farage, Robinson, et al. The individuals out protesting have been failed by this, I am sure many are not fundamentally rotten people, but they have been misled and manipulated by conmen into supporting and promoting what is often far-right rhetoric, because nobody has ever presented them with a progressive patriotic alternative that focuses on our strengths, including migration. I think the key phrase you've used here is net positive because it implies there are both positive and negative aspects of migration, but on overall balance it's positive. This could be a reasonable and uncontroversial opinion to hold, although I would ask what are you implying the negative aspects of migration are then and to whom do they effect? |
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Post by punxsutawney on Aug 6, 2024 17:19:43 GMT
You stated something that was objectively untrue as a fact, not really comparable to me stating something which can't be proven either way as my opinion. This entire situation comes from a place of the political establishment failing for decades, we just disagree how. I think that there has been a systematic failure to address how migration is a net positive to this country and to attack the stigmas and misconceptions put forward by figures such as Farage, Robinson, et al. The individuals out protesting have been failed by this, I am sure many are not fundamentally rotten people, but they have been misled and manipulated by conmen into supporting and promoting what is often far-right rhetoric, because nobody has ever presented them with a progressive patriotic alternative that focuses on our strengths, including migration. I think the key phrase you've used here is net positive because it implies there are both positive and negative aspects of migration, but on overall balance it's positive. This could be a reasonable and uncontroversial opinion to hold, although I would ask what are you implying the negative aspects of migration are then and to whom do they effect? To me, on a personal level, I don't think the most common talking points against migration hold much water. But it's far easier to win an argument by acknowledging what others might think, rightly or wrongly, and convincing them the other side of the coin outweighs it rather than directly telling them "you are entirely wrong and I am entirely right". |
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Post by Latecomer on Aug 6, 2024 20:15:38 GMT
I have deleted Twitter (X) as I cannot now stomach being on a forum which amplifies misinformation and helps cause this unrest. Probably should have left some time ago, but I like all the quirky stuff on there, and also knowing news you don’t see on MSM, and it is addictive, but I will not support Musk.
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Post by danb on Aug 6, 2024 21:37:19 GMT
I think the key phrase you've used here is net positive because it implies there are both positive and negative aspects of migration, but on overall balance it's positive. This could be a reasonable and uncontroversial opinion to hold, although I would ask what are you implying the negative aspects of migration are then and to whom do they effect? To me, on a personal level, I don't think the most common talking points against migration hold much water. But it's far easier to win an argument by acknowledging what others might think, rightly or wrongly, and convincing them the other side of the coin outweighs it rather than directly telling them "you are entirely wrong and I am entirely right". As a manager of both catering & retail outlets over the past twenty five years or so, it was abundantly clear how reliant both areas were on foreign talent, both in work ethic and physical presence. Such a pathetic act of self sabotage as Brexit I doubt I will ever see again. I just couldn’t understand why you wouldn’t want more friends, or a wider talent pool? (edit) Obviously I understand why those at the top of a business probably looked at what they would no longer pay out to the EU, and thought it might net them more money, but long term with increased costs of, well, everything, and a far weaker talent pool, it clearly has not. |
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Post by Phantom of London on Aug 7, 2024 9:19:09 GMT
I have deleted Twitter (X) as I cannot now stomach being on a forum which amplifies misinformation and helps cause this unrest. Probably should have left some time ago, but I like all the quirky stuff on there, and also knowing news you don’t see on MSM, and it is addictive, but I will not support Musk. Free speech is a great thing - it is the bastion of great civilised societies such as ours, Unfortunately there is a small element of our society that isn't civilised. So what was market square chatter many years ago, where propaganda was spread, this has now moved to social media and not confined to the market square but goes national/worldwide with a touch of a button. On social media up to 50 riots are being organised for tonight Elon Musk (An American Immigrant) who is wholly unsuitable to run a social media platform, Twitter is a open sewer, as are other social networks. Whilst a risk of rioting is at large - Twitter, Telegram, Instagram etc should be taken down and only allowed to function again, when they can prove to be responsible and not a danger to public security. So what I am saying people who spew bile and propaganda as hyperbole as clickbait, that can endanger life should be banned from posting. The people who should be banned can be authorised by the Director of Public Prosecutions, Director of MI5 and 3 judges on the advice of Cheltenham GCHQ as an example, this would make the process politically impartial. Free speech is important, but comes with responsibilities. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 7, 2024 9:26:59 GMT
Sorry but the idea they you should shut down all social media is authoritarianism gone too far.
It is repressive and regressive. It would only fuel the frustration and anger that feeds violence.
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