19,670 posts
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 23, 2023 20:09:24 GMT
In the know or not in the know? The plot thickens! 🙂
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Post by toomasj on Aug 23, 2023 20:21:03 GMT
This transfer is already signed. It’s definitely happening regardless of middling reviews. The big question is Caissie. This isn’t true. Sorry. Check your sources again. I will when I see them again, but I bow to your reputation on here and habit of being right 99% of the time. Hoping my contact is correct above all else, I suppose. For now at least, I’m hoping everyone enjoys this brilliant show which is finally on our shores. |
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5,811 posts
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Post by mrbarnaby on Aug 23, 2023 20:24:39 GMT
This isn’t true. Sorry. Check your sources again. I will when I see them again, but I bow to your reputation on here and habit of being right 99% of the time. Hoping my contact is correct above all else, I suppose. For now at least, I’m hoping everyone enjoys this brilliant show which is finally on our shores. 99% is too much. Let’s say 97% |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2023 14:36:46 GMT
I thought one rounds down from 96.35%. Interesting.
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Post by bobbievanhusen on Aug 24, 2023 15:29:36 GMT
Loved the show last night. I have to say that I dont get any of the comments made about Jamie Parker. I thought he was superb and gave one of the best performances I have seen in a very long time. He is the MVP of this production. He might not have a big clean belt that some expect, but his singing is full of emotion and you can't not be pulled in by it. Dan has probably the biggest story arc in the show and it was his character that made me emotional watching it. Diana might be the main character, but the story is also equally about how her illness affects her family and those around her, no more so than Dan. I was sat in the stalls, D24, front facing and in the second half when Dan starts to break down, as someone above had highlighted above, he was sat in front of me and to watch it all play out on his face, was heartbreaking. If you can't see it from the low numbered seats, you are missing out.
The direction was also excellent. There are lots of very small moments that you might miss. {Spoiler - click to view}
Dan doesn't see Gabe, but Diana's mental illness gives her that connection to him. Towards the end of the second act, there is a brief moment when Gabe is singing and Dan's head just slightly turns because he can now hear him, it's a very small acknowledgement that he's there. You know it's all downhill for Dan from there.
Eleanor Worthington-Cox was excellent and has a big future ahead of her. Great voice, and acting, but i felt that Natalie was a bit 1 note. At the start it felt a bit like she had more issues than Diana did and that didn't really give her much more to go on.
Caissie Levy sang it really well, but Jamie Parker acted her off the stage.
Both Jacks were great and thankfully Henry isn't as annoying as he is on the recording.
I was pleasantly surprised by Trevor Dion Nichols, his voice was good, but was he miming his 'rock star' moments?
I can see this transferring, but it would have to be to one of the smaller houses. There's no name recognition with the title, creatives, or cast and without the flatout rave reviews, it will be a hard sell.
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1,485 posts
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Post by Steve on Aug 24, 2023 23:33:08 GMT
Saw this tonight and it's absolutely brilliant. Best thing I've seen in the Donmar in ages! 6 rounded human characters of real complexity, undergoing emotional journeys with twists and turns that are difficult to predict, yet make sense and are poignant. Towering performances by all, musically and dramatically, especially the principals, Caissie Levy, Jamie Parker and Eleanor Worthington-Cox. I voted 5 stars in the poll. Some spoilers follow. . . I'm new to this show. I've long been aware people love this show, but I didn't know it. Now I do, and I think it's fantastic, and this production is immensely moving, and at times, very funny too. It's like a symphony of human emotions, with characters bouncing off each other movingly and believably, and expressing all this, together with an incredible bunch of musicians, in sensitive and impassioned singing and music. As an aside, I gather certain critics think this musical is a medical manual, and are consulting the show for psychiatric advice, instead of Doctors and psychiatric professionals, and downgrading the show for giving advice that isn't current. Perhaps they feel the show's book (aka medical manual) should be updated every six months to keep up with the latest Psychiatric Gazette. Applied to works of art, this is absurd. On this thinking, Jane Austen is garbage because she assumes women are dependent on men, Star Wars is garbage because light sabers don't work, and this show is garbage because the advice hasn't been updated to reflect the latest issue of the Lancet. Not only don't I buy that it's the business of art to do the work of Doctors, I don't even buy that Trevor Dion Nicholas's Doctor is necessarily wrong in this case, because life is messy, and what works for one person may not work for another. For example, one anti-biotic may cure something for me, but for another person, it may not work, and Doctors will try another. And if that doesn't work, they'll try something else. So I feel in this case about a key characters's mental illness. This doctor has plainly tried a lot of things, and the things he tries subsequently will obviously be changed up continuously if previous things didn't work. Anyway, I agree with the above poster that Jamie Parker gives a magnificent performance of a man living an uncontrollably messy life, of his love, his compassion, his despair, his attempts to ignore unpleasant realities and his attempts to deal with them. I was very moved. Parker found the gallows humour in despair, but also the poignant tragedy of not being able to help when that's all he wants to do. So funny. So moving. I was equally moved by Caissie Levy's portrayal of a woman living an unconventional life, through no choice of her own, and her feelings about that, and her connections to everyone around her. Again, another magnificent performance, and Levy's ability to project emotions into her singing is exceptional and brilliant. Equally, Eleanor Worthington-Cox, who remains the best Matilda I ever saw, is equally wonderful in this, her character trapped between the above characters, and the fears of what in them she may find in herself. Sometimes, I could see the vulnerable but feisty Matilda she once was in the adult she now projects, a childlike vulnerability bubbling fearfully beneath teen terror antics, resonating and realising a multi-dimensional human being on stage, just like Parker and Levy. And put them together with the stupendous support of Trevor Dion Nicholas (his excitable genie from Aladdin seemed to jump right out of him like a jack in the box at one perfect point lol), of Jack Wolfe, who's brother character is so effective as a catalyst and judge of his family's behaviour, and of Jack Ofrecio's boyfriend character, so effectively demonstrating the outsider looking in, and connecting the family to the whole messy universe of the wider world. This is a wonderful ensemble of six, working in concert, like a symphony, bouncing off each other beautifully, performing a thrilling and warm work about how vulnerable people are. I predict that critics may upgrade their reviews if and when this transfers, as I suspect it will linger with them longer than they thought it would. I like to think so, anyway lol. Regardless, 5 stars from me.  |
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1,133 posts
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Post by Stephen on Aug 24, 2023 23:48:47 GMT
Please could someone who has seen this give some insight on... {Spoiler - click to view}
How graphic the 'post suicide attempt' moments are/is? The is a trigger warning on the Donmar site about it saying there is blood cleanup involved too?
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195 posts
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Post by tal on Aug 25, 2023 0:00:28 GMT
Please could someone who has seen this give some insight on... {Spoiler - click to view}
How graphic the 'post suicide attempt' moments are/is? The is a trigger warning on the Donmar site about it saying there is blood cleanup involved too?
The suicide attempt is depicted by Diana leaving the stage dancing, and then a large pool of blood slowly appearing on the floor, while the doctor describes that she was found there. It is a shocking image and a strong moment, but we don’t see Diana on the floor at all. In the following scene, her husband uses towels to clean the blood while he sings. Shortly after, her daughter arrives and finds her father rushing to finish the cleaning.
Hope that helps! |
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Post by lolli on Aug 25, 2023 7:08:07 GMT
I thought Jamie Parker was totally heartbreaking in this. Such vulnerability. I hope his work here is recognised.
There seems to be a real divide between critics and audiences on the material which is interesting.
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Post by apubleed on Aug 25, 2023 7:24:00 GMT
The thing I’d say about mental health having worked in the profession is that it is VERY messy, and problematic - yes including and especially the medical diagnosis and treatment aspect. There is not a single united front and I think many professionals would agree with many of the ideas in the show, while others disagree (and that’s fine). Similarly, we live in a world right now that is more empowering of those who suffer from mental illness and place a lot of importance on ‘lived experience’. That’s good/nice but as alluded to before the world is messy and everyone experience is different, so people should not feel if the show does not accurately represent their story that there is a problem with it. Except for a couple of head scratching moments that I might describe as creative licence, in general the show has obviously been informed by professional consultation because many of the ideas and even some lines sound like they were taking directly from university textbooks. The show obviously is not the Wild West west and has a very respectful and serious approach to the issues it deals with.
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Post by toomasj on Aug 25, 2023 13:55:37 GMT
Spoilers follow for the plot
Sorry if what I’m saying seems obvious to many, but some of the key parts of the plot seem to go over some people’s heads - including some professional critics! A friend I went with on Broadway didn’t even realise there are two doctors - because the role is played by the same actor!
I think the show (the text and staging in the original production, at least) makes it very clear that there is no hard-and-fast solution to “fix” serious mental illness.
Doctor Fine’s approach, is to make everything, well, fine. With cocktails of drugs, he’ll keep prescribing pills until the outcome he wants is achieved. “Patient stable”. As depicted in “My Psychopharmacologist and I”, he talks solely in terms of symptoms. When Diana hints at problems with her marriage, he awkwardly brushes it off. He is old-school medicine, put simply.
“Is medicine magic, you know that it’s not. We know it’s not perfect but it's what we've got. It's all that we've got.”
Diana doesn’t want to feel half-alive, numbed by Valium (even though it’s her favourite colour!) so the events of “I Miss the Mountains” take place.
Dr. Madden (another pun name, based on his treatment techniques) has a completely different approach, using hypnotherapy and more “modern” treatments to try and retain Diana’s personality, but help her address her grief. He is the new breed (“a real rockstar”).
The two roles sharing an actor (aside from keeping the cast intimate and claustrophobic) also works to show that essentially both doctors are good people, who care about their patient and are trying their best within their own fields of expertise to use their techniques to help Diana. They are two sides of the same coin.
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Post by theatre2023 on Aug 25, 2023 14:12:42 GMT
Seems a cast recording could be on its way ... Donmar just posted a clip of them in a recording studio.
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Post by apubleed on Aug 25, 2023 14:30:26 GMT
Spoilers follow for the plotSorry if what I’m saying seems obvious to many, but some of the key parts of the plot seem to go over some people’s heads - including some professional critics! A friend I went with on Broadway didn’t even realise there are two doctors - because the role is played by the same actor! I think the show (the text and staging in the original production, at least) makes it very clear that there is no hard-and-fast solution to “fix” serious mental illness. Doctor Fine’s approach, is to make everything, well, fine. With cocktails of drugs, he’ll keep prescribing pills until the outcome he wants is achieved. “Patient stable”. As depicted in “My Psychopharmacologist and I”, he talks solely in terms of symptoms. When Diana hints at problems with her marriage, he awkwardly brushes it off. He is old-school medicine, put simply. “Is medicine magic, you know that it’s not. We know it’s not perfect but it's what we've got. It's all that we've got.” Diana doesn’t want to feel half-alive, numbed by Valium (even though it’s her favourite colour!) so the events of “I Miss the Mountains” take place. Dr. Madden (another pun name, based on his treatment techniques) has a completely different approach, using hypnotherapy and more “modern” treatments to try and retain Diana’s personality, but help her address her grief. He is the new breed (“a real rockstar”). The two roles sharing an actor (aside from keeping the cast intimate and claustrophobic) also works to show that essentially both doctors are good people, who care about their patient and are trying their best within their own fields of expertise to use their techniques to help Diana. They are two sides of the same coin. Plus the lines in "Light" make it clear that the show is not necessarily trying to suggest that people should follow Diana and not seek professional help (Dan's acceptance of going when offered; the Doctor saying that Diana is aware of the risks etc.). Even back in the original production the show some people used to wonder/complain if the show had a dangerous message. I would say it has a complex nuanced message, not a dangerous message. And one that is ultimately hopeful and pro-therapy/medication. |
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Post by vickyg on Aug 25, 2023 14:36:15 GMT
Seems a cast recording could be on its way ... Donmar just posted a clip of them in a recording studio. Sadly I think this was just from the sitzprobe but I would love a cast recording! |
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Post by Oobi on Aug 25, 2023 14:45:18 GMT
I normally try to avoid whining about individual reviews - opinions are opinions, everyone's unique, yada yada - but this paragraph in the Timeout review really raised my eyebrows:
... Can someone help me understand what the writer's trying to say here? Sure, Diana and Natalie have senses of humor, but beyond that, there's really nothing "kooky" about their personalities. Even if I interpret the paragraph incredibly generously and accept that their mental health problems broadly fit under the stereotype of "female hysteria", it's not accurate at all to describe them as "manic pixie". I can't believe I have to point this out to a supposedly professional critic, but manic pixie dream girls aren't actually defined by their mania. From Wikipedia:
MPDG as a trope is less about the female character herself and more about her role in the story. But Diana and Natalie spend more or less the entire show being doted on by their respective love interests; the two of them are, like, the exact opposite of the trope.
If anything, the closest thing N2N has to a "manic pixie dream character" is Henry; he's defined solely by his relation to Natalie, existing as an idealized embodiment of unconditional love. (And Natalie even calls him "the girl", so... cue X-Files theme.)
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Post by toomasj on Aug 25, 2023 14:49:36 GMT
I normally try to avoid whining about individual reviews - opinions are opinions, everyone's unique, yada yada - but this paragraph in the Timeout review really raised my eyebrows: ... Can someone help me understand what the writer's trying to say here? Sure, Diana and Natalie have senses of humor, but beyond that, there's really nothing "kooky" about their personalities. Even if I interpret the paragraph incredibly generously and accept that their mental health problems broadly fit under the stereotype of "female hysteria", it's not accurate at all to describe them as "manic pixie". I can't believe I have to point this out to a supposedly professional critic, but manic pixie dream girls aren't actually defined by their mania. From Wikipedia: MPDG as a trope is less about the female character herself and more about her role in the story. But Diana and Natalie spend more or less the entire show being doted on by their respective love interests; the two of them are, like, the exact opposite of the trope. If anything, the closest thing N2N has to a "manic pixie dream character" is Henry; he's defined solely by his relation to Natalie, existing as an idealized embodiment of unconditional love. This reeks of the author of the review having discovered a new term from tvtropes.com and attempting to shoehorn it in at the earliest opportunity, regardless of accuracy. I like my reviews straightforward, honest and as unpretentious as possible. KISS - keep it simple, stupid! |
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Post by danb on Aug 25, 2023 15:05:45 GMT
Agreed that it’s a load of word salad, but there’s definitely an interesting discussion to be had about formalism in MT; stock characters, events & story rules etc.
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Post by curiouskc on Aug 25, 2023 15:54:05 GMT
MPDG as a trope is less about the female character herself and more about her role in the story. But Diana and Natalie spend more or less the entire show being doted on by their respective love interests; the two of them are, like, the exact opposite of the trope. If anything, the closest thing N2N has to a "manic pixie dream character" is Henry; he's defined solely by his relation to Natalie, existing as an idealized embodiment of unconditional love. (And Natalie even calls him "the girl", so... cue X-Files theme.) I agree, it's a lazy careless misuse of the term. Diane and Natalie are the primary and secondary protagonists of the show, both with narratives that centre entirely on their personal wants, needs and struggles. Dan and Henry's arcs are almost entirely centred on them being support systems for their wife/girlfriend, the only exception to this being that one scene near the end when Dan finally confronts his own grief and trauma over losing his first child, something he has long suppressed because his sole focus until that point has been supporting Diane. Gabe and Dr Fine/Madden are more abstract characters, one an imaginary son/manifestation grief and the other a pair of mental health doctors blurred together, but both function largely as foils to Diane in her journey battling her illness. The Time Out reviewer seems to be - very lamely and vaguely - trying to suggest that two men aren't capable of writing a feminist play with strong complex female protagonists. I couldn't disagree more. They can and they have. |
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Post by apubleed on Aug 25, 2023 15:58:28 GMT
That Time Out review is awful, awful woke virtue signalling parody of someone who wants to appear intelligent but is widely misinformed. And the problem is that these claims go unscrutinised and even probably resonate to some naieve readers. But it's bordering on slander of the creatives, and I think it's a bit gross that the creatives' gender is being twisted to make them seem unable to tell this story. The Time Out review is more appropriate as a reddit comment or forum post than a professional critical review that should be taken seriously. Feels so unfair not just to the creatives, but to potential audience members who now might turn away from the show and miss out on a great piece of art and ideas that are certainly not as 'problematic' as the person claims them to be.
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Post by intoanewlife on Aug 25, 2023 16:13:54 GMT
That Time Out review is awful, awful woke virtue signalling parody of someone who wants to appear intelligent but is widely misinformed. Agreed, what a load of utter rubbish. |
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Post by lucy on Aug 25, 2023 20:25:42 GMT
Seems a cast recording could be on its way ... Donmar just posted a clip of them in a recording studio. Where was this posted? |
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Post by mattnyc on Aug 25, 2023 20:31:06 GMT
Seems a cast recording could be on its way ... Donmar just posted a clip of them in a recording studio. Where was this posted? It wasn’t. It was a clip of their sitzprobe a while ago. |
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1,470 posts
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Post by mkb on Aug 25, 2023 21:53:23 GMT
I love that we're reviewing the professional reviewers and finding them wanting. More please. It's good for them to get a taste of their own medicine.
The votes for a show on theatreboard are immeasurably more useful than anything written with the sole purpose of selling copy.
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Post by intoanewlife on Aug 25, 2023 22:14:23 GMT
Well I had a pretty fair idea going in that I was going to hate this and I did, every single second of it.
As I am not one for pissing on peoples parades I won't list everything I loathed about it and I'm glad everyone who has been waiting to see it for years is finally getting to see it and is loving it.
But yeah this was just not for me and it will forever be sitting in my Room 101 alongside Falsettos, Caroline or Change and Fun House for eternity.
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Post by c4ndyc4ne on Aug 25, 2023 22:35:30 GMT
That Time Out review is awful, awful woke virtue signalling parody of someone who wants to appear intelligent but is widely misinformed. And the problem is that these claims go unscrutinised and even probably resonate to some naieve readers. But it's bordering on slander of the creatives, and I think it's a bit gross that the creatives' gender is being twisted to make them seem unable to tell this story. The Time Out review is more appropriate as a reddit comment or forum post than a professional critical review that should be taken seriously. Feels so unfair not just to the creatives, but to potential audience members who now might turn away from the show and miss out on a great piece of art and ideas that are certainly not as 'problematic' as the person claims them to be. It is definitely a flawed review but I also think this is a wildly inaccurate use of the word woke 😂 |
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