Anything Goes - Barbican / U.K.Tour

[BurlyBeaR]

Seriously looking at booking this. I asked before about the stalls front row and a member was kind enough to respond but can I just double check… if I choose front row is there legroom and will I miss any tapping feet?

[alece10]

Jun 12, 2021 18:24:22 GMT BurlyBeaR said:

Seriously looking at booking this. I asked before about the stalls front row and a member was kind enough to respond but can I just double check… if I choose front row is there legroom and will I miss any tapping feet?

I made enquiries from the access team at the Barbican and was told that there was legroom but that the stage was quite high so they recommended that I book Row B end of aisle which I did.

[BurlyBeaR]

Cheers Alec

[buckybear]

Some people on here need to fill their own lives with purpose and stop nosing into other peoples and becoming their unofficial spokesperson. Faux outrage about something they’ve read on SM and know nothing about is just vacuous attention seeking. There’re enough problems in the world without ‘inventing’ something out of nothing. Go back to sleep, we’re not interested in your misguided moral outrage.

[originalconceptlive]

I don't know if Jennifer Holliday has responded to the Sutton Foster matter (I can't be bothered diving into the social media around this), but it's interesting that she herself was 'cancelled' for a while back in 2017. She originally signed up to sing at Trump's inauguration. Her initial response to the ensuing backlash was defensive, and critical of cancel culture (without naming it as such).

www.aol.com/article/entertainment/2017/01/13/jennifer-holliday-explains-inauguration-decision/21654745/

Later, she withdrew from the inauguration and issued an apology statement.

www.thewrap.com/jennifer-holliday-trump-inauguration-lgbt/

That incident could be (and was) a whole other debate. But maybe at some stage we'll just reach cancellation saturation and everyone will be willing to give others a bit of leeway, due to having experienced cancellation themselves already. (Then the pendulum will swing too far in the other direction for a while, and no one will be able to thoughtfully critique anyone else's words or actions...)

[sph]

It seems that by maintaining a silence regarding the matter (of which the producers and Sutton Foster must have been made aware), the incident seems to have blown over, so they did the right thing. I think raising her hands up and admitting "guilt" would have led to people asking for her to pay some sort of reparation or experience some sort of "punishment" such as pulling out of the show, which would have been a shame all around.

The angry mob will move on next week to someone who makes sushi but isn't actually Japanese or something.

[justsaying113]

This is pathetic! We really are turning into a humourless, virtue signalling little world. Can people no longer make mistakes or have lapses in judgement (or however you want to categorise Ms Sutton) without calling for a lynch mob like we live in the Middle Ages or under Stalin!

[danb]

I guess the big difference these days is that nothing is judged on it’s intent rather how it is viewed and interpreted. If someone has been offended the creator is guilty regardless.

[anthem]

The responses to the issue on this board makes for very uncomfortable reading. The lack of any type of reflection is troubling. I suspect all of the posters defending Sutton are white? Step out of your privilege for a moment and you might see what the problem is.

[sph]

No one is saying that you should make fun of black performers. What is being said is that a decade-old video clip taken out of context is not really a strong enough piece of evidence to denounce someone as a born and bred racist and have them "cancelled".

And was it necessary to say "nicest" in air quotes?

[craig]

Jun 13, 2021 14:02:46 GMT anthem said:

The responses to the issue on this board makes for very uncomfortable reading. The lack of any type of reflection is troubling. I suspect all of the posters defending Sutton are white? Step out of your privilege for a moment and you might see what the problem is.

Genuinely sorry you feel that way. I can only speak for me personally but it is something I have reflected on a great deal. I am always so interested to listen and to learn and to reflect on my own opinions and my own actions. There are very many instances where my outlook has changed in response to issues like these being raised.

That said, it must also be possible to draw different conclusions than those who have taken offence and I do very much reserve my right to do so. Those taking offence are, of course, entitled to feel that way. Suggesting that all those who don’t agree are white people who don’t understand / don’t care enough is oversimplification. There will be many black voices who are not engaged in this conversation who feel differently.

I belong to a marginalised minority who all have different opinions as individuals, just as any other minority has. The idea that we all must all draw the same conclusions as a vocal minority on social media is absurd.

[David J]

Jun 13, 2021 14:02:46 GMT anthem said:

I suspect all of the posters defending Sutton are white? Step out of your privilege for a moment and you might see what the problem is.

And thank you sir for assuming what I am and telling me what I should or shouldn’t think

Just like people are jumping to conclusions and telling Sutton what she should and shouldn’t sing based on what she did 10 years ago. Except they are taking the next step and demanding her to be cancelled

I agree the lack of reflection is troubling

You’ve just exemplified this culture that has been bred over the years. All this white privilege labelling and demanding we rethink our attitudes (‘or else’ in some cases), is very tiring when all we’re doing is having a conversation about the issue at hand

Would you be surprised that there might be minorities who have concerns about this whole situation as well? Should they check their white privilege?

This isn’t going to solve the problem of racism any sooner. It’s making things worse and dividing people further and further

[mrbarnaby]

Jun 13, 2021 17:19:09 GMT David J said:

Jun 13, 2021 14:02:46 GMT anthem said:

I suspect all of the posters defending Sutton are white? Step out of your privilege for a moment and you might see what the problem is.

And thank you sir for assuming what I am and telling me what I should or shouldn’t think

Just like people are jumping to conclusions and telling Sutton what she should and shouldn’t sing based on what she did 10 years ago. Except they are taking the next step and demanding her to be cancelled

I agree the lack of reflection is troubling

You’ve just exemplified this culture that has been bred over the years. All this white privilege labelling and demanding we rethink our attitudes (‘or else’ in some cases), is very tiring when all we’re doing is having a conversation about the issue at hand

Would you be surprised that there might be minorities who have concerns about this whole situation as well? Should they check their white privilege?

This isn’t going to solve the problem of racism any sooner. It’s making things worse and dividing people further and further

Like that truly dreadful ‘Dear White American Theatre’ rubbish. That was a low point.

[jakobo]

Any idea how bad is the restricted view on the side in row B/C/D? I'm really tempted by the price.

[alece10]

Jun 13, 2021 20:42:24 GMT jakobo said:

Any idea how bad is the restricted view on the side in row B/C/D? I'm really tempted by the price.

Hopefully not too bad. I've booked one of those seats in Row B but mainly because of the legroom

[Deleted]

Putting air quotes around "nicest" implies he thinks she is anything but.

He's calling out Mark publicly, but nothing for Sutton?

[southstreet]

Jun 13, 2021 22:42:31 GMT @tbfl said:

Putting air quotes around "nicest" implies he thinks she is anything but.

I didn't read it as that. I read it more like, just because she is nice or seen as nice (I don't know her personally), doesn't mean that she can't do anything wrong or dish out microaggressions. 

As someone who is in this particular marginalized group, most people aren't calling for her to be cancelled and I don't believe in overzealous cancel culture, though I do think some people definitely do deserve to be cancelledl!!!
But I do believe that taking accountability for ones actions is important, even if they were in the past. It's not like this is just a video, the recording of this is still streaming right now on Spotify, so she clearly still thinks there is nothing wrong with it.

And in most cases when I have experienced racism, it wasn't meant with malice and was 'just a joke' or just plain ignorance. Doesn't mean it isn't racism. I think that is what some people struggle to get their head around. It's easy to pinpoint people marching around in KKK gear or having white supremacy tattooed on their foreheads, but this is not what people of colour are up against on a daily basis. It's the constant, seemingly small microaggressions that add up. however 'unintentional' they are. And if this kind of stuff keeps getting normalised and excused ("But Sutton is the nicest person in the business", to paraphrase Mr Shenton's now deleted post), then we will not be getting anywhere. 

Once again, I am not calling for Sutton to be cancelled based on this video (or the track that she is still streaming on Spotify) but I do find the silence a bit disappointing. There will also be black people who will want to cancel her based on this and there will be black people that don't think she did anything wrong, this is just the opinion of this particular black individual.

[ceebee]

What I find sad about all of this is that our ability to debate and discuss things rationally as humans seems to have been diminished by the need to have an immediate position, soundbite, stance or opinion. These days, I half-expect to be shot down as a hetero white guy in his forties for simply offering my perspective on a particular topic. I would much rather discuss, consider, acknowledge and change, than be pressganged or humiliated into a public retraction or shift in position. THIS is where I think people are getting it wrong. Everybody has a voice whether we like it or not, and the constant suppression of views or badging of people is often as offensive and divisive as whatever the hot subject matter of the day happens to be.

We should not be cancelling anything. We should be learning, developing, improving. We should have enough confidence in ourselves irrespective of colour, identity, sexuality to be able to have coherent and progressive discussions about really important subject matters. Cancelling history, dredging twitter, or furiously looking for faults in archive materials placed in a 2021 context, can only lead to universal dissatisfaction where every person feels like the victim of some kind of retrospective cleansing of social ideology. This is where social media is still in its infancy and needs to grow up. For adults to have adult conversations requires patience, tolerance, acceptance and a willingness to live, learn and hopefully be a better person.

Too many decent people are degrading (sometimes shaming) themselves and the ideals they stand for by placing greater value on social media virtue signalling and posturing rather than instigating proper dialogue and meaningful debate. For this reason, Trevor Dion Nicholas both wins and loses in this instance, for although Shenton has removed his post, it has also shut down any kind of healthy debate. Shutting down the conversation does not progress it, and for this reason the better person is the one that champions the opportunity to discuss perspectives through the lens of as many different people as possible, so that white/privileged/hetero/middle-aged/boomer/gammon/out-of-touch folk like myself can truly understand what is at the heart of such issues, rather than get deafened by the empty-barrel of noise that is the social media echo chamber. I'm willing to learn, and to be taught, but a thousand different views crossing before my eyes often leaves me bewildered and frustrated by the frenetic process and speed of social media interaction.

When it threatens to destroy careers or even people, then we all need to take a look at ourselves and ask how the whole evolutionary process is going.

[southstreet]

I completely agree with ceebee that conversations are absolutely vital in this situation. And people are not going to be open to learn if they just get shot down, rather than being explained why what they are thinking or saying might actually be harmful or offensive.

But people also need to stop being so defensive (and I include myself in that cos it's hard and there are many subjects I am nowhere near as well informed about as I would hope to be) and if someone is explaining to them that whilst what they said wasn't meant to cause offense, that it actually has to just take that on board rather than going into a 'BUT' defensive mode. All I would expect in that situation is a simple, I am sorry, I didn't realise and then that is all that is needed. But I only want this if it is actually meant that way, I very much felt with Mark, that he apologised more because he felt he had to rather than actually believing it, because in his posts on subsequent days he very much framed himself as the victim, rather than saying, sh*t I messed up, it happens, I am human or simply not further commenting on it at all.

And when I say that I do think certain people deserve to be 'cancelled', to maybe elaborate on this, is for them not to be allowed to spew hatred and misinformation or abuse people, without being challenged or for it to be seen an completely inconsequential by letting them continue in high profile main stream positions. So by this I don't mean people like Sutton Foster at all. I am talking more of people of the Katie Hopkins, Harvey Weinstein or Jeffrey Epstein calibre, I don't believe they should be given a platform. But then that is my opinion. :-)

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2021 11:35:05 GMT southstreet said:

Once again, I am not calling for Sutton to be cancelled based on this video (or the track that she is still streaming on Spotify) but I do find the silence a bit disappointing. There will also be black people who will want to cancel her based on this and there will be black people that don't think she did anything wrong, this is just the opinion of this particular black individual.

In my case the silence is because I want to know what people who are affected by this think and what they want me to do. It is not for me to prejudge that and give an opinion where frankly I don't think my opinion matters or is warranted. It is not for me to say people should or shouldn't be affected by or "cancelled" for something like this.

Please tell allies what you would prefer us to do so we know how to react in a way that will help move things forward in the right way, not cause the circular debate that this thread seems to have become. I'm not asking to be spoon fed, just conscious that a white person jumping in can inadvertently make things worse, so I'd rather take direction from those whose views on this actually matter.

[alece10]

I'm waiting for someone to call out all the drag Queens who have done "And I am telling you", Lily Savage for her impersonation of Marlene Deitrich and Basil Fawlty impersonating a German.

[juicy_but_terribly_drab]

Jun 14, 2021 14:52:28 GMT alece10 said:

I'm waiting for someone to call out all the drag Queens who have done "And I am telling you", Lily Savage for her impersonation of Marlene Deitrich and Basil Fawlty impersonating a German.

I'm waiting for you to understand that these things aren't comparable. If Sutton had just sang the song there'd have been nothing wrong for most people. She'd be singing it outside of the context of the show, there's nothing explicitly about being black in the song, it's all subtextual, and pretty much no one would bat an eye. The issue was the impersonation - the lowering of the voice, the mimicry of the vocal infections - Holliday's way of singing is distinctive but also rooted deeply in African American culture and to mimic and mock it as a white woman is racist and is basically what minstrels did but without the black face. There is not that history of extreme oppression behind an impersonation of a French or German accent that would make such an impression remotely comparable to what Sutton did. Maybe if you were talking about someone putting on an exaggerative Indian or Chinese accent for laughs then you might say they're comparable and I think most people would find that offensive, and the same is true for what Sutton did whether she realised it at the time or not.

[alece10]

Jun 14, 2021 15:37:47 GMT juicy_but_terribly_drab said:

Jun 14, 2021 14:52:28 GMT alece10 said:

I'm waiting for someone to call out all the drag Queens who have done "And I am telling you", Lily Savage for her impersonation of Marlene Deitrich and Basil Fawlty impersonating a German.

I'm waiting for you to understand that these things aren't comparable. If Sutton had just sang the song there'd have been nothing wrong for most people. She'd be singing it outside of the context of the show, there's nothing explicitly about being black in the song, it's all subtextual, and pretty much no one would bat an eye. The issue was the impersonation - the lowering of the voice, the mimicry of the vocal infections - Holliday's way of singing is distinctive but also rooted deeply in African American culture and to mimic and mock it as a white woman is racist and is basically what minstrels did but without the black face. There is not that history of extreme oppression behind an impersonation of a French or German accent that would make such an impression remotely comparable to what Sutton did. Maybe if you were talking about someone putting on an exaggerative Indian or Chinese accent for laughs then you might say they're comparable and I think most people would find that offensive, and the same is true for what Sutton did whether she realised it at the time or not.

Well I believe they are comparable but I'm not getting into a debate about it as we all have our views and opinions which we are entitled to.
So let's all just look forward to seeing the show WITH Sutton Foster making her debut in London and enjoying, what is going to be, a memorable performance.
As long as BoJo doesn't throw anymore spanners in the works.

[Someone in a tree]

Jun 14, 2021 15:37:47 GMT juicy_but_terribly_drab said:

Jun 14, 2021 14:52:28 GMT alece10 said:

I'm waiting for someone to call out all the drag Queens who have done "And I am telling you", Lily Savage for her impersonation of Marlene Deitrich and Basil Fawlty impersonating a German.

I'm waiting for you to understand that these things aren't comparable. If Sutton had just sang the song there'd have been nothing wrong for most people. She'd be singing it outside of the context of the show, there's nothing explicitly about being black in the song, it's all subtextual, and pretty much no one would bat an eye. The issue was the impersonation - the lowering of the voice, the mimicry of the vocal infections - Holliday's way of singing is distinctive but also rooted deeply in African American culture and to mimic and mock it as a white woman is racist and is basically what minstrels did but without the black face. There is not that history of extreme oppression behind an impersonation of a French or German accent that would make such an impression remotely comparable to what Sutton did. Maybe if you were talking about someone putting on an exaggerative Indian or Chinese accent for laughs then you might say they're comparable and I think most people would find that offensive, and the same is true for what Sutton did whether she realised it at the time or not.

But is she doing for laughs? Or perhaps an imporsonation / tribute?

[juicy_but_terribly_drab]

Jun 14, 2021 16:01:03 GMT Someone in a tree said:

Jun 14, 2021 15:37:47 GMT juicy_but_terribly_drab said:

I'm waiting for you to understand that these things aren't comparable. If Sutton had just sang the song there'd have been nothing wrong for most people. She'd be singing it outside of the context of the show, there's nothing explicitly about being black in the song, it's all subtextual, and pretty much no one would bat an eye. The issue was the impersonation - the lowering of the voice, the mimicry of the vocal infections - Holliday's way of singing is distinctive but also rooted deeply in African American culture and to mimic and mock it as a white woman is racist and is basically what minstrels did but without the black face. There is not that history of extreme oppression behind an impersonation of a French or German accent that would make such an impression remotely comparable to what Sutton did. Maybe if you were talking about someone putting on an exaggerative Indian or Chinese accent for laughs then you might say they're comparable and I think most people would find that offensive, and the same is true for what Sutton did whether she realised it at the time or not.

But is she doing for laughs? Or perhaps an imporsonation / tribute?

Well everyone was laughing so... As has repeatedly been said she may not have intended to be racist but what she did was nevertheless so. If you kill someone without intending to you might not be guilty of murder but you'll probably be guilty of manslaughter.