The Ongoing Wicked Discussion Thread

[BurlyBeaR]

They should have one of those talking posters like you see in airports next to every stage door. It could be CHF wagging her finger and telling people the correct way to behave.

Or even better... BAN IT.

[sophie92]

I don’t think it’s necessary to be making the assumption that these people aren’t going to wash or shower though. I expect that after buying their tickets, many will head home or to their hotels to do just that.

[martello736]

I think, in the kindest way possible, that I'm pretty done with this thread now. I'm not going to pretend for a moment that I haven't been one of the worst offenders of the very behaviour I'm about to decry - I was the one who first told the Nutella story about 3 years ago after all, but there comes a point where you take a step back and think "what exactly is the point of this?" and that's where I am.

The Wicked discussion thread has to be one of the most cynical and smug places on the internet, that smacks of superiority and a prevailing tone of contempt for the show it claims to be supporting as well as its associated fanbase. I understand there is a large generational divide between the Wicked fans of today and those of us on this board whose eras we would say have mostly "been and gone" for want of a better phrase. There's a lot of original run Rachel Tucker fans - for me my time was Willemijn/Jenny/Emma and Savannah - but there are very few genuine fans of this cast (despite the fact that Twitter, Instagram etc is full of them) and the lack of that voice, or its presence being somewhat overwhelmed when it does appear, has led to a real "old guard" vs "new recruits" feel.

We all were massive Wicked fans once. In fact I'm sure several of us still are. We all experienced that thrill and excitement of OUR Elphaba running out onstage, that guilty pleasure when they cranked out the riff that they probably shouldn't have done but still sounded brilliant anyway, when we got to meet them at stage door and thank them for their performance and feel disbelief that THAT person who had just made 2000 people laugh, weep and cheer themselves into vocal nodules was actually stood right there in front of us talking to us. I'm sure a lot of us, me absolutely included, probably took it a bit too far. In fact I definitely took it a lot too far. Every spare penny I had went into Wicked, I could recite every Elphaba who'd ever played the role in an English speaking production at one point, yes I probably stage doored maybe twice or three times as frequently as I should have done and I bought weird gifts that I imagine (and hope) the performers receiving them threw straight in the bin - but for that glorious period it was the most wonderful feeling. Actually probably the best feeling I've ever experienced to care so passionately, so honestly about something and to derive that much pleasure from its existence.

When I read this thread, I see people who experienced just that, admittedly maybe not in that specific way or to that level of intensity, a few years down the line behaving with a sense of superiority over those who are experiencing it now. We're all different with the benefit of hindsight, but why are we so dismissive, or indeed outright insulting to those who are deriving their pleasure with this cast, or this era? I see those of us who still see the show feeling like they have to repent for or justify going to stage door as if it's a colossal sin, like supporting Alice and her vocal choices is in some way an anti-status quo opinion. I have a friend who once had one of the regulars on this thread give a report on their behaviour at stage door after a show on Theatre Board, and it was soul destroying for them. Their joy and excitement at meeting people they respected and admired was misrepresented as attention seeking and it made them feel ashamed for supporting a show that they love. Even now they feel huge paranoia that every single thing they do to support people they look up to is actually just irritating and self-centred.

I don't think this thread should be us imposing our "been there done that" morals on other people. I don't think we should stereotype and caricature modern Wicked fans as if we weren't the exact same, and make derogatory remarks when we hear a dramatised account of the behaviour that they exhibit, that fails to mention the kindness, passion and love that underpins their actions, as if we're so much better and always have been. I know this is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, but change has to start somewhere. I would just like to say at this point, that there are lovely, wonderful people on this thread who can exempt themselves from everything I've just said, and this is not designed as a personal attack on any one board member, or group of board members, but rather the culture that can manifest itself when lots of like minded people get together and their viewpoint is the prevailing one.

I hope Alice, Sophie and the entirety of the 2018/19 cast have a wonderful last show. I think Alice is an exceptional Elphaba - even if not one of my absolute absolute favourites - and the amount of people that have connected to her performance is a testament to her dedication to the role. Sophie I think has developed incredibly over these past 2 years, I missed Suzie Mathers a lot and didn't quite see what Sophie was going for for the majority of her first year but I think she can comfortably take her place among all of the Glinda greats London has produced. This has been a really strong, solid cast and I look forward to seeing what the next era brings.

[danb]

Jul 20, 2019 8:58:37 GMT sophie92 said:

I don’t think it’s necessary to be making the assumption that these people aren’t going to wash or shower though. I expect that after buying their tickets, many will head home or to their hotels to do just that.

Well done for assuming a positive outcome and not Elphageddon.
🧙‍♀️🧹

[shady23]

Very wise words martello736 and beautifully written.

I guess we all need to take a step back from the madness sometimes and look at the bigger picture because in the general scheme of things and especially when you see what else is going in in the world, it is not that important.


However, we cannot always ignore the "bad behaviour". I assume you are referring to people being upset about comments about fans at the recent tour. I remember seeing a photo of a signed haul from that tour and every ticket, leaflet and everything else was signed. Maybe fifty odd signed things. Which is fine, but I saw that tour maybe ten times and my programme is almost empty. A quick hello, one signature and me being able to say thanks ONCE all tour would have been lovely but that didn't happen. Others have different expectations which is fine but you DO have to be mindful about the effect your behaviour can have on others. I felt very much like I had no right to be at stage door at all and felt like absolute rubbish to put it mildly. I'm sure most performers like to meet their regular fans at stage door, I'm certainly not saying they don't, I don't speak for them or know their thoughts on the matter, but I'm pretty sure they'd like the opportunity to meet less-regular fans too.


It's different in London when the stage door has space, it's not always the case at regional venues. It would have been nice for the super fans to step back sometimes and let others have a moment. That's all.

[ptwest]

Very well put Martello736!

[Deleted]

Jul 20, 2019 8:58:37 GMT sophie92 said:

I don’t think it’s necessary to be making the assumption that these people aren’t going to wash or shower though. I expect that after buying their tickets, many will head home or to their hotels to do just that.

That's absolutely fair, and I haven't once said that. The frequency with which anyone chooses to shower is entirely up to them!

But I am still genuinely astounded that people see no harm at all in the kind of behaviour I was talking about (camping, stage door stalking etc.). Just because it has always happened to one degree or another doesn't mean we should tolerate it. And sometimes it is only with the benefit of hindsight that we can be in a position to highlight the behaviour that shouldn't be encouraged. That isn't hypocrisy, it's learning from mistakes. I was never one of the obsessive fans - the furthest I've gone is going to the stage door a couple of times years apart, though I will freely admit I was that obsessed person for other things - but even if I was, there is nothing wrong in admitting that you did take it too far and that those doing so now should not in any way be encouraged.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with going to a stage door to congratulate a performer and say thank you, and there's nothing wrong with excitement about doing so. But there is a vast difference between that and the sort of behaviour that is actually being called out here.

I think it's a sad indictment of the state of this thread when people are being criticised for having a genuine concern for the welfare of both the performers and the fans, so I'm out too.

[BurlyBeaR]

It is the way of the world, as sure as night follows day, that older generations will criticise the actions of younger despite the fact that they were themselves once guilty of the same or similar behaviour.

If someone chooses to camp out for hours in order to get a ticket they could have purchased weeks ago then that’s up to them. If they can’t recognise that this is not rational behaviour then fine, but one day they will.

It’s not reasonable to expect people not to comment on it. I’m in.

[xanady]

For me that is the post of the year winner so far from martello 736...heartfelt,,emotive and empathetic...I tip my black conical witch’s hat to you for your wise words...Bravo!

[jgblunners]

Wow she really doesn't like Wednesday matinees does she?

[tr252]

Wishing Alice and Sophie and the cast a good send off tonight. I think Alice has been a great Elphaba overall, and I have enjoyed her performance the 3 times that I have seen her. Sophie has grown so much over the past couple of years which I think has been lovely to see.

I haven’t seen Wicked since September but I’m sure I’ll go back again to see the new cast.

[daisy24601]

Sophie's posted a lovely video of herself when she was 18 saying it was her dream role. I love stuff like that.

I'd love to be there tonight, I love a cast change and I'm sure it'll be an emotional one!

[isabel]

Looking forward to tonight, should be good

[martello736]

Thank you everyone for your lovely comments ❤️

Just to clarify as I don’t think I put it across very well, of course I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t call out bad and dangerous behaviour when it happens, there would be nothing worse than a cast member being stalked or harassed while everyone mindlessly twiddles their thumbs saying “well as long as the fan is having a nice time” but I think sometimes we conflate people who actually are just having a nice time in their own way - a different way to how we ourselves might but equally harmless - with the very real and unrelated people who do pose a genuine problem (I think we all know which unnamed YouTube video creator I’m referring to here).

I don’t think a picture of an assortment of things collected over a year of the tour with lots of happy memories attached is inherently a bad thing. I’ve always been someone who likes to get things signed, and on occasion I’d take 4 or 5 tickets from previous visits and ask if the leads would mind signing them, 90% of the time they’d happily oblige and we’d have a 20 second conversation while they did it and then they’d move on and it’d be a nice but not massively inconvenient interaction for them and when someone said they had a train or were busy I’d make a mental note and not ask them to sign things again - and I imagine most people are the same.

I definitely agree though the regulars should always take a step back and let everyone else go first (and accept that if a performer is in a rush that the other people waiting should have said performer’s time) and it’s a shame that that doesn’t always happen.

[shady23]

I may have worded that wrong, I had nothing against the photo, it's more about logistics. There is often limited room at tour stage doors so unless you are right by the door you are not going to see anyone. Yes the two leads might stop and see everyone but ensemble generally won't. They'll say a quick hello to those right by the door and then leg it as they assume nobody else is waiting for them.

Unless you ran to SD after the show that meant that nobody else further back got the chance to have any kind of conversation.

People can get a million things signed and be at stage door 24/7 if they want, I don't care, but if in doing so it means they are depriving others of any kind of experience then I do care. It's just about being mindful to others.

[andrew]

Jul 20, 2019 10:46:49 GMT jgblunners said:

Wow she really doesn't like Wednesday matinees does she?

She really avoided mentioning one principal cast member, huh?

[bengal73]

Jul 20, 2019 8:58:37 GMT sophie92 said:

I don’t think it’s necessary to be making the assumption that these people aren’t going to wash or shower though. I expect that after buying their tickets, many will head home or to their hotels to do just that.

This is very much what used to happen. Probably still does

[isabel]

Interval. Amazing atmosphere. Alice is out of this world. 2 standing ovations for her.
Sophie I can’t warm to, not funny. But has lovely voice

[shady23]

I thought the same about Sophie at first but now I really like her.

[daisy24601]

Any muck up matinee stuff today?

[amp09]

Jul 20, 2019 8:38:24 GMT @posterj said:

Jul 20, 2019 7:42:29 GMT danb said:

But who are we to criticise them, especially if some of our number are going to stage door later? I might take the p!ss quite a lot, but if these kids/grown-ups want to camp to queue for day seats it’s up to the theatre to discourage it and the police to move them on. Not for us to sneer at people enjoying themselves; especially not after #cheerupcharlie. I think it’s a bit of a double standard for a board to champion inclusivity and equality, then slate people for this. I know they aren’t related but positive messages matter.

I see no reason to be positive about something that I think is fundamentally wrong. I find it extremely alarming that anyone would encourage, condone or tolerate that type of behaviour - it isn't healthy, and someone needs to tell them they are obsessive and need help. There's a huge difference between being a fan of a show and going to see it multiple times and being so obsessed you camp out multiple times and effectively stalk the performers either at the stage door, online or both.

It isn't sneering (in fact I find it rather offensive that you have characterised it in that way when no one here has done anything of the sort), it's a genuine concern that unacceptable behaviour is being left unchallenged and people are being allowed to develop unhealthy compulsions that impact on the lives of the cast members who are just trying to do their jobs, as well as on their own personal safety.

It's unnecessary and I see no need to apologise for disagreeing with it. And it has nothing to do with inclusivity or equality, in fact it's the opposite - these obsessive fans are taking up a lot of affordable tickets that could go to others who want to see the show on a budget but have more sense than to camp!

Here, here.

[isabel]

That speech from Alice broke me totally. And I’m not the type to usually cry !

[itsemily]

Jul 20, 2019 21:35:15 GMT isabel said:

That speech from Alice broke me totally. And I’m not the type to usually cry !

Me too! I was not prepared to be that emotional!

[isabel]

Jul 20, 2019 21:52:57 GMT itsemily said:

Jul 20, 2019 21:35:15 GMT isabel said:

That speech from Alice broke me totally. And I’m not the type to usually cry !

Me too! I was not prepared to be that emotional!

Grown men around me were in tears

[isabel]

Also not sure about Fiyero, seemed to have a weak voice. Maybe he was unwell . I’m ALAYM he cracked really badly. He seemed to struggle