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Post by anthony on Aug 21, 2023 12:41:49 GMT
"Mrs de Winter bin ich" (or Mrs de Winter is here!) has just been released: This is actually one of my favourite songs from the show. It feels really slow and the translation a little bit clunky. Interesting the title is "Mrs de Winter is here" when I actually sings "Mrs de Winter is me". It's somewhat of an odd decision to release this song, to be honest. They should have went with either She's Invincible or Rebecca - genuinely think those two would have sparked some interest. My boyfriend: "It sounds like one of those YouTube songs that has been put through Google translate 10 times before being translated back to English". Oh I dunno, funnily enough this is my fave song from the show. The camp was off the charts in Vienna and on both the CDs from there! But yes I do think you're right that it might have limited appeal and is perhaps not a stand alone banger for advertising purposes. Also given how much they've been banging on about the orchestra, wonder if it might have been an idea to wait until sitzprobe to be releasing song vids. Guess they wanna generate interest/an advance now. It's a hard sell. Glorious though this musical is to me, it couldn't be further from the trend in musicals in the UK in 2023. (Sadly). The translation has me *very* nervous. It genuinely feels like they've just translated the German lyrics and then tried to shove them in like-for-like and a lot of the time it doesn't work. You can see it a bit in Help Me Face the Night, but it's awful here. "the windows should be opened every now and then" "I will not use stationary from someone who is dead and gone" (What a line!) "It's handy to have the writing paper and the envelopes" "Mrs de Winter acquired it in the auction house" It just sounds... childish? |
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Post by BVM on Aug 21, 2023 13:06:37 GMT
Oh I dunno, funnily enough this is my fave song from the show. The camp was off the charts in Vienna and on both the CDs from there! But yes I do think you're right that it might have limited appeal and is perhaps not a stand alone banger for advertising purposes. Also given how much they've been banging on about the orchestra, wonder if it might have been an idea to wait until sitzprobe to be releasing song vids. Guess they wanna generate interest/an advance now. It's a hard sell. Glorious though this musical is to me, it couldn't be further from the trend in musicals in the UK in 2023. (Sadly). The translation has me *very* nervous. It genuinely feels like they've just translated the German lyrics and then tried to shove them in like-for-like and a lot of the time it doesn't work. You can see it a bit in Help Me Face the Night, but it's awful here. "the windows should be opened every now and then" "I will not use stationary from someone who is dead and gone" (What a line!) "It's handy to have the writing paper and the envelopes" It just sounds... childish? I don't think it's too bad! I am probably the wrong person to get into lyrics analysis with though, I confess. Whilst I do like clever lyrics I also genuinely like camp and cheesy as well and am amused by much that others really don't feel. (I genuinely liked the Bad Cinderella lyrics). But yes you're right. My German isn't great (can't speak it at all bit can often follow/get the gist and can hear where words start/end) but it does sound like a pretty direct translation. In Vienna I followed along via the English subtitles and certainly did find them cheesy/camp. It's poss where I got the idea that that was part of what this show served as my Austrian friends certainly don't view it as camp (though come on - Willemijn's Danvers?!?! - maybe it's my gay Britishness but could not have been more camp lol). Anyway there we are. Wasn't a lot of the criticism of the Broadway production that never made it that people that heard the bootlegs etc didn't like the lyrics? I don't think this production would live or die on lyrics though - suspect there's a long list the GBP would have not to buy tickets to this that wouldn't get as far as the libretto. I guess it could affect repeat visits from die hard fans - a teeny proportion of the grosses. |
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Post by BVM on Aug 21, 2023 13:08:46 GMT
Oh and just to add - their voices are sensational! Really looking fwd to this, think they've cast it brilliantly!
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Post by anthony on Aug 21, 2023 13:28:37 GMT
The translation has me *very* nervous. It genuinely feels like they've just translated the German lyrics and then tried to shove them in like-for-like and a lot of the time it doesn't work. You can see it a bit in Help Me Face the Night, but it's awful here. "the windows should be opened every now and then" "I will not use stationary from someone who is dead and gone" (What a line!) "It's handy to have the writing paper and the envelopes" It just sounds... childish? I don't think it's too bad! I am probably the wrong person to get into lyrics analysis with though, I confess. Whilst I do like clever lyrics I also genuinely like camp and cheesy as well and am amused by much that others really don't feel. (I genuinely liked the Bad Cinderella lyrics). But yes you're right. My German isn't great (can't speak it at all bit can often follow/get the gist and can hear where words start/end) but it does sound like a pretty direct translation. In Vienna I followed along via the English subtitles and certainly did find them cheesy/camp. It's poss where I got the idea that that was part of what this show served as my Austrian friends certainly don't view it as camp (though come on - Willemijn's Danvers?!?! - maybe it's my gay Britishness but could not have been more camp lol). Anyway there we are. Wasn't a lot of the criticism of the Broadway production that never made it that people that heard the bootlegs etc didn't like the lyrics? I don't think this production would live or die on lyrics though - suspect there's a long list the GBP would have not to buy tickets to this that wouldn't get as far as the libretto. I guess it could affect repeat visits from die hard fans - a teeny proportion of the grosses. I guess semantically words probably have different weightings/understandings in German. Personally, I think that they need to be moving as far away from camp as possible with the show - we saw the damage it did with Dance of the Vampires (although that is extreme - they thought the lyrics were camp so upped it by 1000%) I don't think the British public are nuanced enough to appreciate this if it comes across as camp at all. Look at Aspects of Love - many genuinely didn't seem the get that the show itself is serious but some bits are genuinely funny (if you look back at the thread just after it opened, many were critically because they thought the audience were laughing because it was bad, or awkward, not because it was genuinely meant to be funny at that moment, but then serious moments later!) Agree with voices - Lauren Jones is wonderful! Haven't heard enough for Kara Lane, but she was Alice in Addams Family, which is vocally the most demanding role in that show, so I'm sure she'll be great. Edit: was wrong about Kara's age - seems that she just shoves '90' on the end of everything - assumed it was reference to birth year! |
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Post by viserys on Aug 21, 2023 14:04:10 GMT
Well, since I'm on the other side of the fence, I DO think lyrics play a big part in how a show is perceived and received.
Forever my favourite/foremost example: Les Miserables. A show that has been a huge success worldwide wherever it was shown - except in Austria and Germany where it floundered three times in Vienna, Duisburg and Berlin. I'm purposely saying "floundered" because none of the three was a terrible flop, but none did very well either, certainly not compared to how beloved this show is virtually everywhere else.
And why? I personally still blame the godawful translation that sounded stilted and unnatural, often had the characters sing rubbish (making the audience go "what now?!" instead of being moved by a song) or simply changed vowels so that the songs sounded screechy. For example "On my own" with its low O's was changed to "Ganz allein" with its high A's and it changes the contemplative feel of the song to something that just doesn't sound half as pleasant.
The first translation of Rent (by the same guy who fancied himself a rock star and didn't care for musical theatre at all) was so godawfully bad they binned it later and did a new one.
So I wouldn't underestimate the effect clunky unnatural lyrics have on an audience that keeps wondering "what did she just say?" rather than immerse themselves into the plot. But I would agree that it's a secondary problem to getting people to buy tickets in the first place.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Aug 21, 2023 14:33:11 GMT
Regarding the "clunky lyrics", I would argue that is why Aspects didn't set the world alight. You can't stage those themes with a hybrid of lyrics from Acorn Antiques and a Hallmark greeting card anthony |
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Post by max on Aug 21, 2023 15:04:29 GMT
Re. the Video of "Mrs De Winter is me" - if you know you're going to have to lipsync to a very cleanly recorded track, trying to look as if you're live at the mic, then any possibility of finessing the lyrics with naturalism, a bit of back singing, or other 'in the moment' playfulness is lost, due to being:
"riggid -ly - on - four - four - beats, ma - king sure it's safe to sync, scared you'll give the game a - way".
Or is that not how these are done? Either the video's just out of sync in its YouTube upload, or much of this is lip synced. Far better to properly act it, and not make these lyrics sound as terrible.
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Post by hadeswasking on Aug 21, 2023 15:13:45 GMT
I find it interesting a production of this scale this can afford a 18 piece orchestra. The Charing Cross is not that big of a venue meanwhile other shows are in thousand seat houses with significantly less. Looking at you phantom. The problem is... They didn't realise they actually had to pay them. |
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Post by mrdanvers on Aug 21, 2023 15:33:38 GMT
Interesting. Agree that the scansion/cadences on the lyrics aren't always great, and the idiomatic usage - needs a more 'Downtown Abbey' feel. You'd wonder why that hasn't been put right after 15 years of effort with the English version. Tempo a little slow. Lovely singing, though Mrs dW excessively on the beat, I thought. Mrs D terrific. OK, I'm now moderately excited. Its quite a crucial moment in the show, so hopefully one will simply have been swept away by this point!
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Post by Scswp on Aug 21, 2023 15:34:25 GMT
Re. the Video of "Mrs De Winter is me" - if you know you're going to have to lipsync to a very cleanly recorded track, trying to look as if you're live at the mic, then any possibility of finessing the lyrics with naturalism, a bit of back singing, or other 'in the moment' playfulness is lost, due to being: "riggid -ly - on - four - four - beats, ma - king sure it's safe to sync, scared you'll give the game a - way". Or is that not how these are done? Either the video's just out of sync in its YouTube upload, or much of this is lip synced. Far better to properly act it, and not make these lyrics sound as terrible. I quite like the vocals (whether lip-synched or not) and I like Danver’s subtle mannerisms and expressions. However, whilst I have no issues with Lauren Jones’s singing, I don’t like the way she smiles after each delivery of the line ‘Mrs. De Winter is me’. She smiles in a way that is obviously gloating towards Danvers (slightly taunting her) and I don’t think this is in-keeping with the character (plus it’s a bit like Joan Collins smiling/gloating at Linda Evans or John Forsythe in a 1980s episode of Dynasty!) I understand that Danvers has treated her very badly, but I think the song should convey that ‘I’ has changed and become stronger; when she sings ‘I am Mrs. de Winter’, it should be firm, showing her newly-discovered authority and show Danvers ‘she means business’ when she says this. To me, that is her arc. She doesn’t need the ‘bitchy’ smirk; this is not her character (despite destroying Rebecca’s cherished ornament during the song - another part of the show I’m not so keen on. Does she actually do this in the novel?) She needs ‘polite assertiveness’ to show the changed dynamic in the relationship. I think this is a truer reflection of the character. I’m not sure if I’ve made my point very clear here. I can ‘see’ what I mean in my head, but apologise if it hasn’t come across in my explanation. I’m probably being too critical. Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing it in October. Hope it’s selling better than it was a few months ago. |
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Post by BVM on Aug 21, 2023 15:43:51 GMT
I find it interesting a production of this scale this can afford a 18 piece orchestra. The Charing Cross is not that big of a venue meanwhile other shows are in thousand seat houses with significantly less. Looking at you phantom. Well. Phantom’s in it’s third year since reopening with (still) one of the largest orchestras of a sit down West End musical. And is close to sold out most nights. I guess when Rebecca’s in its third year we can compare the relative merits of their business models. (I rather suspect Rebecca isn’t gonna make a profit IDK 🤷🏻♂️). |
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Post by Oobi on Aug 21, 2023 15:55:12 GMT
I understand that Danvers has treated her very badly, but I think the song should convey that ‘I’ has changed and become stronger; when she sings ‘I am Mrs. de Winter’, it should be firm, showing her newly-discovered authority and show Danvers ‘she means business’ when she says this. To me, that is her arc. She doesn’t need the ‘bitchy’ smirk; this is not her character (despite destroying Rebecca’s cherished ornament during the song - another part of the show I’m not so keen on - does she actually do this in the novel?) She needs ‘polite assertiveness’ to show the changed dynamic in the relationship. I think this is a truer reflection of the character. True, it's not accurate to the book or film. But this is musical theatre, so I'm open to some exaggerated emotion. Earlier in the show Mrs. Danvers pretty explicitly tries to get Ich to kill herself, so I think all bets are off. In the version I saw (Vienna 2022), Ich actually pretended to drop the ornament, took a moment to gloat at Mrs. Danver's panic, then really dropped it. |
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Post by BVM on Aug 21, 2023 15:59:15 GMT
I understand that Danvers has treated her very badly, but I think the song should convey that ‘I’ has changed and become stronger; when she sings ‘I am Mrs. de Winter’, it should be firm, showing her newly-discovered authority and show Danvers ‘she means business’ when she says this. To me, that is her arc. She doesn’t need the ‘bitchy’ smirk; this is not her character (despite destroying Rebecca’s cherished ornament during the song - another part of the show I’m not so keen on - does she actually do this in the novel?) She needs ‘polite assertiveness’ to show the changed dynamic in the relationship. I think this is a truer reflection of the character. True, it's not accurate to the book or film. But this is musical theatre, so I'm open to some exaggerated emotion. Earlier in the show Mrs. Danvers pretty explicitly tries to get Ich to kill herself, so I think all bets are off. In the version I saw (Vienna 2022), Ich actually pretended to drop the ornament, took a moment to gloat at Mrs. Danver's panic, then really dropped it. I said it was serving high camp. Iconic. Also saw this! Nienke Latten was sublime as Ich :-) (More seriously lol, her voice is wonderful. So happy they made a recording of this cast). |
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Post by Scswp on Aug 21, 2023 16:20:35 GMT
I understand that Danvers has treated her very badly, but I think the song should convey that ‘I’ has changed and become stronger; when she sings ‘I am Mrs. de Winter’, it should be firm, showing her newly-discovered authority and show Danvers ‘she means business’ when she says this. To me, that is her arc. She doesn’t need the ‘bitchy’ smirk; this is not her character (despite destroying Rebecca’s cherished ornament during the song - another part of the show I’m not so keen on - does she actually do this in the novel?) She needs ‘polite assertiveness’ to show the changed dynamic in the relationship. I think this is a truer reflection of the character. True, it's not accurate to the book or film. But this is musical theatre, so I'm open to some exaggerated emotion. Earlier in the show Mrs. Danvers pretty explicitly tries to get Ich to kill herself, so I think all bets are off. In the version I saw (Vienna 2022), Ich actually pretended to drop the ornament, took a moment to gloat at Mrs. Danver's panic, then really dropped it. Yes, I saw that production too. I enjoyed it very much, especially Willemijn as Danvers, and I appreciated the mega-musical, if dated, style of it. I, too, noticed the taunting of Danvers before dropping the ornament. I agree it adds to the ‘melodrama’ of it all, but I still think that scene is not true to the character. To me, she needs to show that she has become a stronger version of herself, with the idea that she is still a woman of integrity and kindness, but with the new-found ability to be assertive. In the scene as shown, ‘I’ actively and deliberately becomes spiteful. I get that a modern audience may want to see it this way, but it verges on camp when, in actual fact, it could be such a powerful (and still in-character) moment. Anyway, it is what it is. The London version won’t compare to the Vienna version we both saw, but hopefully, it will still be as enjoyable - even if in a different way! |
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Post by Dawnstar on Aug 21, 2023 21:22:26 GMT
I quite like the vocals (whether lip-synched or not) and I like Danver’s subtle mannerisms and expressions. However, whilst I have no issues with Lauren Jones’s singing, I don’t like the way she smiles after each delivery of the line ‘Mrs. De Winter is me’. She smiles in a way that is obviously gloating towards Danvers (slightly taunting her) and I don’t think this is in-keeping with the character (plus it’s a bit like Joan Collins smiling/gloating at Linda Evans or John Forsythe in a 1980s episode of Dynasty!) I've not seen the musical but based on reading the novel & seeing a straight play adaptation (admittedly both some years ago) I found Lauren Jones' acting to be rather jarring. I assume, unless the plot's been significantly changed from the novel, that we're supposed to be sympathising with the second Mrs de Winter's struggles against the malign Mrs Danvers. Instead when watching the song I found myself more taking Mrs Danvers' side because the second Mrs de Winter came over as annoyingly smug. |
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Post by originalconceptlive on Aug 21, 2023 21:35:34 GMT
I actually always thought, from the novel, that "I" proved herself not to be a very nice person at a certain point in the story. I appreciated it as another of the novel's dark twists, to show a different side to "I" after it had got the reader on side with her for so long. I don't think that means that she has to do things like smashing ornaments or smirking necessarily, but I'm okay with her being unsympathetic, or at least generating an ambivalent response from the reader/audience, in the last section of the story. That's just how I interpret it though.
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Post by Oobi on Aug 21, 2023 22:43:40 GMT
Well, since I'm on the other side of the fence, I DO think lyrics play a big part in how a show is perceived and received. Agree 100%! Over time, I find myself increasingly believing that while strong lyrics can redeem a boring melody, it takes really incredible music to save boring lyrics. And while "Mrs. de Winter Bin Ich" is a fine song, I imagine if I'd heard the English translation in the theatre it for the first time I'd cringe pretty hard. I'm by no means e xperienced but I have dabbled with lyric-writing, so here's my attempt at a rough retranslation: | Original translation | My version | Orchids never were my style
Azaleas are far more versatile
Empty these flowerpots
On the compost pile
Those are the orchid pots of Mrs. de Winter
It smells stuffy here
The windows should be
Opened every now and then
Mrs. de Winter won't agree
She will, I think you'll see
Mrs. de Winter is me!
I will not use stationary
Left over by someone who's dead and gone
It's no good to me
Throw it all away
And this address book with the numbers of her cronies
But its place is here
It's handy to have
Writing paper and the envelopes
Mrs. de Winter won't agree
She will, I think you'll see
Mrs. de Winter is me!
And this china ornament, I always found it vulgar
(Mrs. de Winter's favorite piece)
You would need a certain kind of bad taste to enjoy it
(Mrs. de Winter acquired it in the auction rooms)
Anyway, the cupid is all chipped
(Mrs. de Winter told me)
So I think I'd best destroy it
(No... NO!)
I want to feel that I'm at home
(She's invincible)
Not tolerated like a guest
(She's unsinkable)
I want to live the way I like
(She will never be defeated, it's unthinkable)
Don't care if you're impressed
I have denied myself for far too long
(But I feel she's still real all around me)
But that's all over now
I was surrounded by shadows
(She's watching, she's listening)
But now they're all gone
(She's invincible)
Let the light in, let us be
(She is stronger)
I'm beginning to feel free
(She's invincible)
Mrs. de Winter is me
(She's unsinkable)
I will come into my name
(You won't conquer her)
Nothing here will stay the same
(She won't change)
| This room needs a makeover
Orchids never really were my style
Let's consign these pots
To the compost pile
Those plants were raised from seed by Mrs. de Winter
And this stuffy air
My throat is bare
Please open up that window there
Mrs. de Winter won't agree
She will, I think you'll see
Mrs. de Winter is me!
I don't want my private room
Laden with a perished woman's things
Throw them all away
See the peace it brings
Like this address book with the numbers of her lovers
But its place is here
Year after year
And if it were to disappear
Mrs. de Winter would object
She would? But last I checked
Mrs. de Winter is me!
And this china ornament, I always found it vulgar
(Mrs. de Winter's favorite piece)
Ever since you fixed it up, its ugliness increases
(Mrs. de Winter took care to clean it each day)
Looking at it, I can't help but think
(Mrs. de Winter always)
Yes, I think that I preferred it in pieces
(No... NO!)
I'm the lady of this house
(She's invincible)
Not merely some overstaying guest
(She's unsinkable)
I want to live a life that's mine
(She will never be defeated, it's unthinkable)
Don't care if you're impressed
I have bit my lip and bowed my head
(But I feel she's still real all around me)
But now I stand with pride
This empty house was a tomb
(She's watching, she's listening)
But now it's purified
(She's invincible)
Let the light in, let us be
(She is stronger)
From this moment, I am free
(She's invincible)
Mrs. de Winter is me
(She's unsinkable)
And I swear upon my name
(You won't conquer her)
Nothing here will stay the same
(She'll remain)
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I made the rhyming scheme consistent, tidied up some of the stilted/rushed phrasing, and hopefully made the prose stronger and more evocative. By no means perfect (I struggled with the final verse) but if I can make these improvements in a few hours then a professional lyricist has no excuse. |
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Post by bobbievanhusen on Aug 22, 2023 3:36:09 GMT
'This room needs a makeover' doesn't exactly sing...
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Post by Oobi on Aug 22, 2023 12:10:59 GMT
'This room needs a makeover' doesn't exactly sing... True. I kinda rushed that line in my desperation to get rid of “Azaleas are far more versatile”, which doesn’t even fit the music. I like “This room needs a lady’s touch”. Subtle digs at Rebecca FTW. |
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42ndBlvd
Swing
I'll be back where I was born to be
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Post by 42ndBlvd on Aug 22, 2023 15:41:01 GMT
I find it interesting a production of this scale this can afford a 18 piece orchestra. The Charing Cross is not that big of a venue meanwhile other shows are in thousand seat houses with significantly less. Looking at you phantom. Well. Phantom’s in it’s third year since reopening with (still) one of the largest orchestras of a sit down West End musical. And is close to sold out most nights. I guess when Rebecca’s in its third year we can compare the relative merits of their business models. (I rather suspect Rebecca isn’t gonna make a profit IDK 🤷🏻♂️). Which really proves the point that it never needed to substantially decrease it's orchestra. It recouped years decades ago, way before I was even born and is constantly selling out each night. Phantom is the last show on the West End that needs to worry about making money. BTW Lion King has 17 musicals, still the same number from when it first opened. Wicked has 17 as well I believe. |
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Post by BVM on Aug 22, 2023 15:59:51 GMT
Well. Phantom’s in it’s third year since reopening with (still) one of the largest orchestras of a sit down West End musical. And is close to sold out most nights. I guess when Rebecca’s in its third year we can compare the relative merits of their business models. (I rather suspect Rebecca isn’t gonna make a profit IDK 🤷🏻♂️). Which really proves the point that it never needed to substantially decrease it's orchestra. It recouped years decades ago, way before I was even born and is constantly selling out each night. Phantom is the last show on the West End that needs to worry about making money. BTW Lion King has 17 musicals, still the same number from when it first opened. Wicked has 17 as well I believe. The only point it proves is that it hasn’t harmed it’s position in the West End as the Phans predicted. Shows have to be profitable day to day. When it recouped is irrelevant. You’re confusing two financial facts. In fact the reduction is probably responsible for its survival through the stormy post coronavirus 18 months. Wicked and Lion King I imagine take more money than Phantom. Look what happened to Phantom on Broadway. It wasn’t financially viable with those overheads post covid. |
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Post by anthony on Aug 22, 2023 16:45:34 GMT
Well. Phantom’s in it’s third year since reopening with (still) one of the largest orchestras of a sit down West End musical. And is close to sold out most nights. I guess when Rebecca’s in its third year we can compare the relative merits of their business models. (I rather suspect Rebecca isn’t gonna make a profit IDK 🤷🏻♂️). Which really proves the point that it never needed to substantially decrease it's orchestra. It recouped years decades ago, way before I was even born and is constantly selling out each night. Phantom is the last show on the West End that needs to worry about making money. BTW Lion King has 17 musicals, still the same number from when it first opened. Wicked has 17 as well I believe. To be fair, it's only in the last few months that Phantom ticket sales have increased so much - genuinely was looking like closing notices would be imminent around 6 months ago... Performing at literally around 60% capacity... |
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Post by anthony on Aug 25, 2023 12:11:47 GMT
Theatre Cafe have an "exclusive look".
It's actually quite funny. The lead actress: "The acting is phenomenal" (Could come back to haunt her when the reviews come in!). The lead actor: "The music is... very good" haha
I am so excited!
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Post by mrdanvers on Sept 4, 2023 8:15:39 GMT
Hi I can't go to the first to the first preview tonight, I have 2 premium tickets F4 and 5 worth £55 each, woulds sell for £70 the pair.
Thanks
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