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Post by BVM on Sept 30, 2024 11:45:43 GMT
I'm just waiting for a small-scale Stephen Ward reimagining to pop up somewhere... (...and why the f aren't more regional theatres doing By Jeeves?!?) Stephen Ward actually was a passion project for ALW. He was obsessed with the story and the miscarriage of justice at the time. It’s a funny one for me. Really liked act 1. There wasn’t much musically to get one’s teeth into in act 2, other than Hopeless When It Comes To You and Too Close To The Flame. It got very bogged down with plot resolution and the police interview and court melodies didn’t hugely move me. |
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Post by max on Sept 30, 2024 12:14:30 GMT
I'm just waiting for a small-scale Stephen Ward reimagining to pop up somewhere... (...and why the f aren't more regional theatres doing By Jeeves?!?) Is there much to reimagine in Stephen Ward Just imagining it would be good, let along reimagining. I don't think Richard Eyre brought any directorial take. Perhaps he wasn't allowed to though. |
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Post by singingbird on Sept 30, 2024 12:16:52 GMT
I'm just waiting for a small-scale Stephen Ward reimagining to pop up somewhere... (...and why the f aren't more regional theatres doing By Jeeves?!?) Stephen Ward actually was a passion project for ALW. He was obsessed with the story and the miscarriage of justice at the time. It’s a funny one for me. Really liked act 1. There wasn’t much musically to get one’s teeth into in act 2, other than Hopeless When It Comes To You and Too Close To The Flame. It got very bogged down with plot resolution and the police interview and court melodies didn’t hugely move me. Of course it's just an opinion, but Stephen Ward could be an amazing musical, because there is so much interesting raw material to work with. It just needs a radical (and I mean radical) overhaul, a reframing of the pov, and a new title. Most of the main musical material can stay (although it needs fewer ballads and more slinky jazz) but the lyrics are a mess (so many mis-stressed lines, it's embarrassing) and the show needs to be less in love with its leading character. Ward may be a victim of a serious miscarriage of justice, but he was also a dark and complicated man - so show us. The show got bogged down in narrative, but the 'what' of what happened isn't half as interesting as the 'why' and the ‘how it made people feel’. It would work better as a more abstract mood piece, rather than a wannabe political thriller. If it can be as overhauled as seriously as Jeeves was to create By Jeeves, then I really think it could work. In the meantime, I agree it's strange that no smaller theatre company has staged it. Maybe the rights aren't available? I definitely enjoyed it more than LND, Cinderella, School of Rock and The Woman in White. |
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Post by max on Sept 30, 2024 12:17:14 GMT
I'm just waiting for a small-scale Stephen Ward reimagining to pop up somewhere... (...and why the f aren't more regional theatres doing By Jeeves?!?) There's a joy about the music in 'By Jeeves' that had me (for a while) thinking ...is this actually his best score? 'It's A Pig' is just consummate musical theatre writing, of the old school that seems more popular now. Yes, should be more productions of it - I just don't like the jokey 'poor theatre' approach in the USA video, but that's also even more popular now, with the 'Goes Wrong' franchise. |
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Post by thedrowsychaperone on Sept 30, 2024 14:58:53 GMT
I'm just waiting for a small-scale Stephen Ward reimagining to pop up somewhere... (...and why the f aren't more regional theatres doing By Jeeves?!?) There's a joy about the music in 'By Jeeves' that had me (for a while) thinking ...is this actually his best score? 'It's A Pig' is just consummate musical theatre writing, of the old school that seems more popular now. Yes, should be more productions of it - I just don't like the jokey 'poor theatre' approach in the USA video, but that's also even more popular now, with the 'Goes Wrong' franchise. This is why I'm surprised it's not done more... Perfect Nonsense sold incredibly well in town and on tour, as well as shows like 39 Steps and Mischief doing very well too, if I was the New Wolsey or Queen's Theatre Hornchurch then I'd know exactly what my next big actor-muso production would be! |
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Post by mrbarnaby on Sept 30, 2024 16:19:30 GMT
Can’t wait to see how he recycles Live Never Dies/Our Kind of Love for a new show! Praying for some rap too… to make it cool and connect with Gen Z
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Post by magnificentdonkey on Sept 30, 2024 16:54:54 GMT
I'm watching the film now, I've never seen it before.
The scene in the theater with all the police planning to arrest the protagonist (which he, of course, won't allow, vanishing right in front of their eyes) during his performance looks particularly funny in view of the context of this thread.
On a side note, Philip Glass's "The Orange Tree" is sublime.
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Post by max on Sept 30, 2024 17:46:37 GMT
I'm watching the film now, I've never seen it before. The scene in the theater with all the police planning to arrest the protagonist (which he, of course, won't allow, vanishing right in front of their eyes) during his performance looks particularly funny in view of the context of this thread. On a side note, Philip Glass's "The Orange Tree" is sublime. Yes! I'd forgotten this, from reading the original Steven Millhauser short story last night; but get this from the final two paragraphs: "Six officers leapt onto the stage and attempted to seize Eisenheim, who looked at them with an expression of such melancholy that one policeman felt a shadow pass over his heart.....From the crowd rose the sound of a great inrush of breath as Eisenheim began his unthinkable final act....some claimed to see, as he dissolved before their eyes, a look of fearful exaltation. Others said that at the end he raised his face and uttered a cry of icy desolation". They then go ransacking Eisenheim's apartment: "In the Devil's Factory trick mirrors were found, exquisite cabinets with secret panels" In the short story there is a small boy (Elis) that the illusionist conjures up - the description reminiscent of Gustav in 'Love Never Dies': "Many commented on the striking contrast between the angelic boy and the dark, brooding magician". The short story was first published in 1990 (after 'Phantom', before 'Love Never Dies'), it has very few twists and turns of plot - it's more a mood piece. The plot heavy romance and skullduggery belong to the film. But in short story and film it's not impossible to think that the ALW musical of 'The Phantom Of The Opera' had an influence, unwittingly or not - it's been a huge part of popular culture whether you like the piece or not. |
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Post by d'James on Sept 30, 2024 20:21:13 GMT
Just watched Love Never Dies for the first time, and whatever his next musical is, please no children singing like in that show.
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Post by chernjam on Oct 1, 2024 3:50:00 GMT
So much to catch up in a day on this thread  Steven Ward - as an American I didn't know anything about the story and reading the notes and listening to the recording many times I still can't quite figure out what it was about. Take that for what its worth... A pity because "Hopeless when it comes to you" was damn well one of his finest songs that lyrics, music and plot seemed perfectly aligned. But from what I remember, people said it was a waste since the character really was a secondary one to the entire plot (kind of like the Mistress in Evita "Another suitcase in another hall...") By Jeeves - again, speaking as an American who never knew anything about the Jeeves stories this was an incredible amount of fun and such an evening of simple joy post-9/11/01 on broadway. Still love to listen to that recording and its definitely in the enjoying theatre simply for entertainment. Prefer that to any jukebox musical any day. Love Never Dies - its hysterical to think that The illusionist is a similar story. Maybe he will simply recycle the whole score from LND Not sure if Cinderella could be blamed on a bad 2023. He was ready to premiere it in 2020. If anything, the death of his son no doubt - and the subsequent (and unnecessary closing) of POTO were what colored that year for him. Happy that the year ended on a much more positive note with Sunset conquering the West End and now two previews out already lighting up this side of the Atlantic |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Oct 1, 2024 7:13:08 GMT
Talking of recycling has Amigos Para Siempre ever popped up in one his shows?
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Post by singingbird on Oct 1, 2024 10:14:24 GMT
Talking of recycling has Amigos Para Siempre ever popped up in one his shows? I believe not. But according to Tim Rice in his autobiography, the tune was already recycled from an unreleased pop song they wrote together in the sixties! |
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Post by BVM on Oct 1, 2024 10:50:05 GMT
Talking of recycling has Amigos Para Siempre ever popped up in one his shows? I believe not. But according to Tim Rice in his autobiography, the tune was already recycled from an unreleased pop song they wrote together in the sixties! I think it was also in Cricket! (Most of which became Aspects of Love). But indeed, the melody definitely pre-existed Amigos Para Siempre! |
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Post by rosscoe on Oct 1, 2024 10:56:49 GMT
I actually would have loved to have seen Steven Ward on stage, I think parts of that score are some of Webbers best. Pity I don’t think it will ever see the light of day again.
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1,379 posts
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Post by BVM on Oct 1, 2024 11:00:42 GMT
I actually would have loved to have seen Steven Ward on stage, I think parts of that score are some of Webbers best. Pity I don’t think it will ever see the light of day again. Agreed. Feel the same way in that respect about Aspects of Love and Cinderella in that they'll never be seen again. ALW said last year he didn't think Aspects could ever be staged again and I think it's too early/raw for him to even mention the word Cinderella lol. (Which despite it's well documented issues had to my mind some stunning melodies). |
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Post by max on Oct 1, 2024 12:01:04 GMT
I believe not. But according to Tim Rice in his autobiography, the tune was already recycled from an unreleased pop song they wrote together in the sixties! I think it was also in Cricket! (Most of which became Aspects of Love). But indeed, the melody definitely pre-existed Amigos Para Siempre! There's definitely a small section of it in the verse of this song from 'Cricket' (once you've got past the piano intro of 'Anything But Lonely'). |
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Post by BVM on Oct 1, 2024 12:25:24 GMT
I think it was also in Cricket! (Most of which became Aspects of Love). But indeed, the melody definitely pre-existed Amigos Para Siempre! There's definitely a small section of it in the verse of this song from 'Cricket' (once you've got past the piano intro of 'Anything But Lonely'). Yes! That’s what I was thinking of. Thanks Max! I found that track after Tim Rice played it on his podcast but couldn’t quite place it this morning! |
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Post by chernjam on Oct 1, 2024 17:48:41 GMT
I used to have a bootleg (on cassette) of Cricket and it was so cool to hear early versions of stuff that ended up in Sunset and Aspects. Pity in one of those box collections ALW released he never did a Sydmonton Festivals release of all those workshops. I mean its only his hardest core fans who buy those collections, I would imagine there would be a market for that among us for those things.
as for Stephen Ward am I mis-remembering that ALW did a re-staging of a revision of that at The OTher Palace for 4 or 5 performances?
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Post by singingbird on Oct 1, 2024 18:10:41 GMT
I used to have a bootleg (on cassette) of Cricket and it was so cool to hear early versions of stuff that ended up in Sunset and Aspects. Pity in one of those box collections ALW released he never did a Sydmonton Festivals release of all those workshops. I mean its only his hardest core fans who buy those collections, I would imagine there would be a market for that among us for those things. as for Stephen Ward am I mis-remembering that ALW did a re-staging of a revision of that at The OTher Palace for 4 or 5 performances? You're either misremembering, or it was never on sale to the public. But I think it's simply that there was some talk about him doing this (did some performer mention in passing they were working on some revisions with him about 5 years ago?) but nothing actually came of it. Strongly agree re. Sydmonton recordings, though, although we're lucky to be able to view certain things online. I can see why he wouldn't want some of those too widely distributed, but from an academic point of view they are fascinating. Has he completely given up on his Sydmonton Festival now? We never hear it mentioned anymore. |
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Post by magnificentdonkey on Oct 1, 2024 18:28:12 GMT
This is off topic, but I'd love to see a video of Sydmonton's "TWiW", I know there must be one in existence since a tiny clip from it was shown here by none other than the Maestro himself (starting at 1:35):
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Post by blamerobots on Oct 1, 2024 18:30:07 GMT
I used to have a bootleg (on cassette) of Cricket and it was so cool to hear early versions of stuff that ended up in Sunset and Aspects Oh I had one too! I thought I backed it up at some point but alas I can't find the tape nor my backup. I just remember the quality being really dodgy. I'm assuming it's been scrubbed from the internet by the diligent RUG as there's no links to it anywhere. |
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Post by magnificentdonkey on Oct 1, 2024 18:42:37 GMT
I used to have a bootleg (on cassette) of Cricket and it was so cool to hear early versions of stuff that ended up in Sunset and Aspects Oh I had one too! I thought I backed it up at some point but alas I can't find the tape nor my backup. I just remember the quality being really dodgy. I'm assuming it's been scrubbed from the internet by the diligent RUG as there's no links to it anywhere. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I actually happen to have both the bootleg, which is really lousy quality indeed, and the demo, which is actually pretty decent. |
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Post by singingbird on Oct 1, 2024 18:59:52 GMT
The script of Cricket was later published in the book A Breathless Hush, which is an anthology of cricket-related poetry. It's a pretty hefty book, though, if you're only interested in it for the script, which is quite short. While entertainingly written, it is also very inconsequential. I can see why it didn't have a later life. Much of the score works better in the context of Aspects and Sunset, although I get why TR was chagrined!
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Post by magnificentdonkey on Oct 1, 2024 19:17:53 GMT
Also, the last track of the Cricket Demo (the 10th), which is mostly instrumental (apart from the short final choral reprise, that would later become "Anything but Lonely" in AoL), consists of "As If We Never Said Goodbye" theme (but that's no surprise) AND a few bars of the theme that would later become the song from the ending credits of "The Phantom of the Opera"-2004 ("Learn to be Lonely"), as performed by Minnie Driver.
Just a few bars that would later become the "Never dreamed out in the world There are arms to hold you" lines in LtbL, but they are there, without a doubt.
It's really interesting to witness how ALW's musical ideas evolved over time, sometimes taking more than a decade, like in this case (Cricket is 1986 and "Learn to be Lonely" was written, as I've already stated, for the 2004 screen adaptation of PotO).
And also you can hear snippets of "The Ballad of Billy McCaw" theme from 'Cats' (which I really like, btw) all over the Demo. Apart from various themes from SB and AoL, obviously.
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Post by singingbird on Oct 1, 2024 19:30:21 GMT
Also, the last track of the Cricket Demo (the 10th), which is mostly instrumental (apart from the short final choral reprise, that would later become "Anything but Lonely" in AoL), consists of "As If We Never Said Goodbye" theme (but that's no surprise) AND a few bars of the theme that would later become the song from the ending credits of "The Phantom of the Opera"-2004 ("Learn to be Lonely"), as performed by Minnie Driver. Just a few bars, really, and very far away from the complete song, but it's there, without a doubt. You know, I'd never noticed that. You're absolutely right - it's the "never dreamed, out in the world, there are arms to hold you" bit, with the rhythm slightly altered. It feels so different in that context, I don't think I would ever have picked up on it! |
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