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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 11:31:00 GMT
I'm currently writing a new musical. My goal is to one day get it produced in a small London theatre, the so-called Off-West End or Fringe theatres. The main issue is that while many off-west end musicals have a small cast (often between 5 and 10, if not less), my musical will need a rather large cast and ensemble. For starters there are 9 leading and supporting characters (most of them supporting but the roles are big enough for them not to be able to appear in the ensemble much). Apart from those 9 characters, we'll need a decent sized ensemble to play all kinds of little parts, like villagers, soldiers, police officers etc. By my estimation we will need anywhere from 20 to 25 actors for the show. On top of that the show will require quite a few set changes. At the very least, we'll need 6 different "places" in our musical. With different places I mean a pub, a bedroom, a street, an office etc. The show is estimated to run between 2h and 2h30. Does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to pull all of this off?
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Post by talkstageytome on May 16, 2016 12:05:48 GMT
I feel like if you're producing off west end on a shoestring the first thing you might need to think about is cutting down the ensemble size and having people double up (As you probably have seen, this is done all the time, one of the most noticeable examples of this is in Sunny Afternoon, where two actors play two very different, but large, featured roles, one in each act.) as paying all of those actors is going to be a huge cost in itself. And think of cheap ways to represent different locations without having to change the set too much (representative set pieces/ props and lighting). And before you do it in London or at a large venue you'll need to do readings and performances in cheaper studios/venues out of town. These will also cost you a lot of money, and time, but will help get people on board to help with funding if it's got potential.
I'm sure someone else probably has better advice for you. All of mine comes from my involvement with various fringe productions but I'm certainly no expert on the intricacies of the process.
Also, I suspect this may get moved to General Chat?
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 16, 2016 12:06:47 GMT
No idea but the people involved must get paid next to nothing for this type of production. I was trying to work it out for Parade at the new Hope Mill theatre in Manchester which just opened.
100 seats and tickets are £14 to £20. Let's say £20 for the purposes of this.
21 performances which if every one sells out will generate £42,000 in revenue.
They have an orchestra of 9, and let's say the cast is 8 (I think it's more), plus all of the backstage crew, sets, costumes etc. I can't really see how it costs in for these small theatres unless they're getting some sort of grant or significant sponsorship.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 12:14:27 GMT
I feel like if you're producing off west end on a shoestring the first thing you might need to think about is cutting down the ensemble size and having people double up (As you probably have seen, this is done all the time, one of the most noticeable examples of this is in Sunny Afternoon, where two actors play two very different, but large, featured roles, one in each act.) as paying all of those actors is going to be a huge cost in itself. And think of cheap ways to represent different locations without having to change the set too much (representative set pieces/ props and lighting). And before you do it in London or at a large venue you'll need to do readings and performances in cheaper studios/venues out of town. These will also cost you a lot of money, and time, but will help get people on board to help with funding if it's got potential. I'm sure someone else probably has better advice for you. All of mine comes from my involvement with various fringe productions but I'm certainly no expert on the intricacies of the process. Also, I suspect this may get moved to General Chat? Yeah, we'll definitely do readings in small venues beforehand. I was thinking of first doing some kind of concert version first without staging and people just singing the songs, and maybe someone narrating the general story line. If we get a good director he'll definitely be able to come up with some representative set pieces. An off-west end run is my ultimate goal at the moment, but I realise that it will be a long road. I also planned on having one actor play 2 parts, but for the other roles that's impossible because they are often in scenes together. I was in doubt whether I should post this in the General Chat or in Musicals. I figured as it's about making a musical it belonged in Musicals, but Admin can move it to General Chat if they feel like it doesn't belong here |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 12:17:47 GMT
No idea but the people involved must get paid next to nothing for this type of production. I was trying to work it out for Parade at the new Hope Mill theatre in Manchester which just opened. 100 seats and tickets are £14 to £20. Let's say £20 for the purposes of this. 21 performances which if every one sells out will generate £42,000 in revenue. They have an orchestra of 9, and let's say the cast is 8 (I think it's more), plus all of the backstage crew, sets, costumes etc. I can't really see how it costs in for these small theatres unless they're getting some sort of grant or significant sponsorship. Yeah, I'm not sure how they pull it off to get enough funding. I'm not sure whether they all pay their actors. I've heard about profit-share systems where the actors only get paid if the show makes a profit. But I did some research and from what I found it seems you are required to pay your actors at least minimum wage. Not paying the actors is not something I'd like to do, but with a big cast like mine it seems almost impossible to come up with the funds to pay everyone minimum wage |
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Post by partytentdown on May 16, 2016 12:31:23 GMT
A typical London am-dram show has a budget of around £10-15k for a week, without paying actors, although that usually involves paying for rights if it's a musical. If it's a longer run, there aren't really many more costs involved other than hiring a venue. It's the initial outlay that's the pricy bit.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 12:36:11 GMT
A typical London am-dram show has a budget of around £10-15k for a week, without paying actors, although that usually involves paying for rights if it's a musical. If it's a longer run, there aren't really many more costs involved other than hiring a venue. It's the initial outlay that's the pricy bit. £10-15k for just a week? I was expecting something like that for a month. We wouldn't have to pay for rights though as it's a completely original musical. |
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Post by firefingers on May 16, 2016 12:38:29 GMT
To give some rough ideas on money, a 100 seat theatre will cost you about 2 to 2.5 grand a week to hire. You then need to pay your company. Equity state that this should £200, although some producers will only pay half that or eve=n just profit share (although those producers often have a reputation of production good quality work and so people want to work for them). So for 20 actors, a band of say 4, and a crew of 3, you are looking £5400. Then you have the creative fees (director, choreographer, set designer, lighting designer, sound designer etc), which can be up to £750 even in the fringe, then you need to pay for the set and costumes to be built, hire of sound and lighting equipment, and then you have to start spending on marketing to actually get people to come... Essentially, it is massively expensive, and there is a lot of money to loose.
My advice? Don't self produce. Look at what is on in the fringe, see who produces shows similar to yours, and then arrange a meeting to talk about your show and see if you can convince them. There are schemes like From Page to Stage (which you may be too late for the deadline this year, but ample time for next) where you can submit shows and if they are good enough they will be performed in part at a gala or even in full.
As an aside, don't worry about set changes etc. That is the job of the director and designers to "create" those spaces. Oh, and Hope Mill I believe is profit share.
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Post by partytentdown on May 16, 2016 12:40:30 GMT
There's also marketing, which you shouldn't treat lightly if it's an unknown show.
Maybe talk to am-dram groups who may be interested in taking it on - they love shows with big casts that give their members a chance to get involved
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 12:45:35 GMT
To give some rough ideas on money, a 100 seat theatre will cost you about 2 to 2.5 grand a week to hire. You then need to pay your company. Equity state that this should £200, although some producers will only pay half that or eve=n just profit share (although those producers often have a reputation of production good quality work and so people want to work for them). So for 20 actors, a band of say 4, and a crew of 3, you are looking £5400. Then you have the creative fees (director, choreographer, set designer, lighting designer, sound designer etc), which can be up to £750 even in the fringe, then you need to pay for the set and costumes to be built, hire of sound and lighting equipment, and then you have to start spending on marketing to actually get people to come... Essentially, it is massively expensive, and there is a lot of money to loose. My advice? Don't self produce. Look at what is on in the fringe, see who produces shows similar to yours, and then arrange a meeting to talk about your show and see if you can convince them. There are schemes like From Page to Stage (which you may be too late for the deadline this year, but ample time for next) where you can submit shows and if they are good enough they will be performed in part at a gala or even in full. As an aside, don't worry about set changes etc. That is the job of the director and designers to "create" those spaces. Oh, and Hope Mill I believe is profit share. Yeah, I'll probably talk to some fringe producers about the show. Hopefully someone is interested in it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 12:45:57 GMT
There's also marketing, which you shouldn't treat lightly if it's an unknown show. Maybe talk to am-dram groups who may be interested in taking it on - they love shows with big casts that give their members a chance to get involved Yeah I might contact some am dram groups |
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Post by talkstageytome on May 16, 2016 12:52:17 GMT
That's an excellent idea partytentdown, and certainly how I got involved with a lot of new writing. A load of enthusiastic performers (and often resting/retired actors / actors who've moved on to different things but still enjoy performing) and often they'll have their own venue hired too, which is a plus! ;D
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Post by freckles on May 16, 2016 14:09:05 GMT
You could try working with an organisation like Perfect Pitch, who develop new musical writing. www.perfectpitchmusicals.com/Under the "Writers' opportunities" section, there are also links to other organisations that might help. It depends how independent you want to be, but schemes like these can be a help with funding as well as a good source of advice. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 14:11:58 GMT
You could try working with an organisation like Perfect Pitch, who develop new musical writing. www.perfectpitchmusicals.com/Under the "Writers' opportunities" section, there are also links to other organisations that might help. It depends how independent you want to be, but schemes like these can be a help with funding as well as a good source of advice. Thanks  |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 22:57:52 GMT
Sounds like unlikely to get put on with so many people but why not do a Webber and make a recording of the show? You could then get the songs out there maybe someone will take a punt
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 5:17:18 GMT
Sounds like unlikely to get put on with so many people but why not do a Webber and make a recording of the show? You could then get the songs out there maybe someone will take a punt Yeah, we'll find a way to put it on |
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Post by mrcurry on May 17, 2016 14:58:06 GMT
Sounds like unlikely to get put on with so many people but why not do a Webber and make a recording of the show? You could then get the songs out there maybe someone will take a punt Yeah, we'll find a way to put it on You are not planning to sell your house are you ? I agree with the old fashioned way of making a sound recording of the show first. That can be hawked around to the big guys to get some investment. Either that or a very stripped back version to start with with actors playing multiple roles. Should be a good acting challenge. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 17:55:56 GMT
Yeah, we'll find a way to put it on You are not planning to sell your house are you ? I agree with the old fashioned way of making a sound recording of the show first. That can be hawked around to the big guys to get some investment. Either that or a very stripped back version to start with with actors playing multiple roles. Should be a good acting challenge. No I'm not going to sell my house lol  I'm hoping to get a fringe producer on board. And we'll probably start off with a concert and we'll see where it goes from there. But I won't give up very easily |
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Post by joem on May 17, 2016 19:56:50 GMT
Without knowing what the musical is about I can't give specific advice on marketing/sponsorship but try and be creative with this. Does your musical appeal to a particular nationality? Interest group? If so you may be able to approach organisations/clubs/businesses to get sponsorship or at least to help publicise your ork throguh their channels.
I was astonished, for example, that when the Jermyn Street Thteatre did their South African season, the message didn't seem to have got through to the fairly substantial South African community even in London!
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 20:52:30 GMT
Without knowing what the musical is about I can't give specific advice on marketing/sponsorship but try and be creative with this. Does your musical appeal to a particular nationality? Interest group? If so you may be able to approach organisations/clubs/businesses to get sponsorship or at least to help publicise your ork throguh their channels. I was astonished, for example, that when the Jermyn Street Thteatre did their South African season, the message didn't seem to have got through to the fairly substantial South African community even in London! I think that even though it's set in Britain, it's a story that people from all around the world might find interesting. |
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Post by mrcurry on May 17, 2016 21:19:02 GMT
How about posting some snippets for posters here to listen to ? Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 21:22:51 GMT
How about posting some snippets for posters here to listen to ? Good luck. Thanks. I'll post some stuff once we get some demo tracks recorded |
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Post by joem on May 17, 2016 22:27:57 GMT
Without knowing what the musical is about I can't give specific advice on marketing/sponsorship but try and be creative with this. Does your musical appeal to a particular nationality? Interest group? If so you may be able to approach organisations/clubs/businesses to get sponsorship or at least to help publicise your ork throguh their channels. I was astonished, for example, that when the Jermyn Street Thteatre did their South African season, the message didn't seem to have got through to the fairly substantial South African community even in London! I think that even though it's set in Britain, it's a story that people from all around the world might find interesting. No doubt. But to get sponsorship or help from more specific interest groups you'd need to narrow it down a little. |
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