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Post by theatremadness on May 1, 2016 17:20:44 GMT
Listen to this, very emotional performance. What she does is taking the listener on a journey. I could write 5 pages about what is so great about this, and her notes and acting through them, from the warm round timbre she gives a note when she sings about a longing from the past, to the way she intonates the first "I can make your sad heart sing", to the marvelous transition between "with one look you know, all you need to know", where the word "all" feels very hopeful and "need" gets a touch of melancholy because of her magnificent intonation. Etc, etc, etc. She completely masters the craft. It's that great you have such knowledge and passion of the voice, and you've demonstrated that knowledge to us all many times, but I personally feel that on this occasion, the examples you are posting are so extreme that whilst the passion is great, the reality is that probably no-one else in the theatre will be sat there asking themselves the same questions. I highly doubt that many in the audience are sat there concerned what Glenn will be doing with her soft palette, where she's placing the notes and how much vibrato she's using. I don't think we will over hear comments of "I thought Glenn was OK, if only she sounded more hopeful when she sang the world 'all'". I would prefer to be slightly ignorant of all of those details and let myself be taken in by what the show has to offer, than being so knowledgeable about something that I can never turn off and enjoy something, always critiquing to the very highest level and nth degree. Surely you understand that many Joe Bloggs' who have booked to see Glenn Close have already made up their minds that she will be incredible, as demonstrated by applauding her very appearance. Then there are others who are taken on the exact same journey by Glenn as you are by the youtube video you posted, and it's simply impossible to tell someone that one is better than the other as that journey belongs to that person and that person only!! You talk about "acting through song" - and I thought Glenn was simply the epitome of that phrase. For you, the magic comes from the intricate details of the vocal workings, and that is 100% your prerogative and the joy that a good vocal performance obviously gives you is fantastic, but it's also OK to prefer Glenn's vocal styling matched with her incredible acting. Out of interest, how do you feel about Judi Dench in Cabaret and A Little Night Music? |
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Post by crabtree on May 1, 2016 18:16:30 GMT
the matinee audience yesterday were respectful and applauding at the end of numbers not interrupting them, and not jumping to their feet every second.
It's an interesting piece isn't it, as everyone loses out one way or another. Norma loses, Betty loses, Joe loses as does Max. Yes it is Norma who is the overbearing character but it is essentially Joe's tragedy. he is the one caught up and destroyed by Hollywood. He has the most complex journey and is on stage more than Norma. Just a thought.
it's not unlike Doctor Faustus......
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 18:41:15 GMT
And both appear in pants. Apparently.
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Post by ali973 on May 1, 2016 18:46:32 GMT
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Post by mallardo on May 1, 2016 18:56:54 GMT
The Joe Gillis of the musical seems more complex than he turns out to be. He's pretty much one note for a long time in the first act - variations on sneering self-pity. Things improve in the second act with a little self-realization and a minute and a half of being in love. But it's hard to find anything very positive about the guy. For a leading man he's not an attractive proposition which, I suppose, is why so few established leading men want to play him. Michael Xavier is more established than most, in fact.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 1, 2016 20:14:08 GMT
A friend and his husband went last night, I got them the tickets with my presale access (which turned out to be a waste of money Grrr!) Anyway here's what he just texted:
Saw Glenn Close last night. Seats were amazing thanks to you. We thought it was a superior production to the original west end. Bigger orchestra filling out the music. Great chap playing Joe Gillis. Glenn Close was amazing - chills, chills and chills. Huge star. Super-skilled actress. A proper hurricane atrength tour-de-force.
Very happy xx
Superior production to original West End!? Discuss!
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Post by crabtree on May 1, 2016 20:32:42 GMT
As a drama I enjoyed the ENO more than the original West End, that was so full of spectacle and gimmicks (the original car chase montage for example); so full that it was almost distracting. With ENO it flowed beautifully and even music written to fill scene changes were used effectively. With ENO I could concentrate on the words and characters, and the use of space was great. I didn't miss the sets at all.
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Post by Dave25 on May 1, 2016 20:37:24 GMT
It's that great you have such knowledge and passion of the voice, and you've demonstrated that knowledge to us all many times, but I personally feel that on this occasion, the examples you are posting are so extreme that whilst the passion is great, the reality is that probably no-one else in the theatre will be sat there asking themselves the same questions. I highly doubt that many in the audience are sat there concerned what Glenn will be doing with her soft palette, where she's placing the notes and how much vibrato she's using. I don't think we will over hear comments of "I thought Glenn was OK, if only she sounded more hopeful when she sang the world 'all'". I would prefer to be slightly ignorant of all of those details and let myself be taken in by what the show has to offer, than being so knowledgeable about something that I can never turn off and enjoy something, always critiquing to the very highest level and nth degree. Surely you understand that many Joe Bloggs' who have booked to see Glenn Close have already made up their minds that she will be incredible, as demonstrated by applauding her very appearance. Then there are others who are taken on the exact same journey by Glenn as you are by the youtube video you posted, and it's simply impossible to tell someone that one is better than the other as that journey belongs to that person and that person only!! You talk about "acting through song" - and I thought Glenn was simply the epitome of that phrase. For you, the magic comes from the intricate details of the vocal workings, and that is 100% your prerogative and the joy that a good vocal performance obviously gives you is fantastic, but it's also OK to prefer Glenn's vocal styling matched with her incredible acting. Out of interest, how do you feel about Judi Dench in Cabaret and A Little Night Music? Thanks for your reply! It's not something to turn off, because with great performances/performers (of which there are too many to mention) I don't even think about it at all. It just feels natural and often I'm taken on a journey because of all the musical details and nuances and emotion it evokes. I don't think about "why does this line make me emotional", I just did that for the post because I wanted to explain the importancy and finesse of the art. The problem is when I see people who don't master it. Within the first moments I am taken out of what they are trying to do. I'm distracted by the inability. I see a person struggling with singing. Nothing takes me out of the acting more than that. I see unnatural choices, a note that should be a bit longer to lift a certain moment because the situation and music ask for it, is suddenly kept short, like a slap in the face, simply because the person isn't up to it. Bam, out of the acting again. Now, someone like Glenn Close could (arguably, I personally think she is too cartoon-esque and drag-queen like) be a fine actress. But I think she should focus on straight plays or movies that require that kind of exaggerated acting). In any case, stay away from singing. Too many moments go to waste because of the lack of mastering this craft. Sure, she has a few good acting moments in spite of the singing, but it's a fight nonetheless. Because fact is that the audience is still exposed to every note, syllable, line, breath and intonation of every word. There is a reason she is singing. I never want to ask myself: why the hell is she singing? After hearing one unnatural, strained note after another. Then just skip the song. This "faking your way through a song" only tends to work in scenes where the character is crying, because then it's easier to get away with it, and crying evokes emotion per definition and some people might mistake the "inability of singing" with "too thwarted by emotions to be able to sing". I still see a person struggling, but with singing. If Glenn is the epitome of one thing, it is "acting in spite of the singing". This is the exact issue why I can't stand most of the Les Mis film and to answer your question, why I find Judi Dench performances you mention (including her other stuff) just sad and irritating. Completely not believable. Almost laughable when she sings. Nothing to be taken seriously. I just sit there with my head shaking from left to right. Lady, what did you get yourself into? One big exhibition of "look how moved I am by myself, I can't even sing one note, isn't it extra raw this way? Don't I look like a good actress now?" No. You don't. Now, clearly there are Joe Bloggs' who have made up their minds that she will be incredible, and have completely different visions about what singing/this artform is etc. But as a counterpart, there are many people who are not satisfied at all, while I think if it was both good, many people would take this artform more seriously. But you are right when you say that there are different people. And you are also right when you say that someone who has only ever heard rap, can be astonished by the melody of a Katy perry song. So to speak. Anyway, feel free to disagree and like what you like. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 1, 2016 20:46:18 GMT
So, you HAVE seen Glenn Close in this Dave, right? I asked you the other day and you didn't reply.
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Post by Michael on May 1, 2016 20:48:04 GMT
The problem is when I see people who don't master it. Within the first moments I am taken out of what they are trying to do. I'm distracted by the inability. I see a person struggling with singing. Nothing takes me out of the acting more than that. I see unnatural choices, a note that should be a bit longer to lift a certain moment because the situation and music ask for it, is suddenly kept short, like a slap in the face, simply because the person isn't up to it. Bam, out of the acting again. Now, someone like Glenn Close could (arguably, I personally think she is too cartoon-esque and drag-queen like) be a fine actress. But I think she should focus on straight plays or movies that require that kind of exaggerated acting). In any case, stay away from singing. Too many moments go to waste because of the lack of mastering this craft. Sure, she has a few good acting moments in spite of the singing, but it's a fight nonetheless. Because fact is that the audience is still exposed to every note, syllable, line, breath and intonation of every word. There is a reason she is singing. I never want to ask myself: why the hell is she singing? After hearing one unnatural, strained note after another. Then just skip the song. This is how I felt, just said much more eloquently than I ever could. |
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Post by Dave25 on May 1, 2016 20:48:27 GMT
Oh sorry Burly, yes I have and I was not pleased. To say it politely.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 1, 2016 20:55:11 GMT
Oh sorry Burly, yes I have and I was not pleased. To say it politely. Ahh right. I only ask because none of your posts on this subject have referred to your personal experience of her performance  Why did you go if you dislike her so much? |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 21:07:16 GMT
A friend and his husband went last night, I got them the tickets with my presale access (which turned out to be a waste of money Grrr!) Anyway here's what he just texted: Saw Glenn Close last night. Seats were amazing thanks to you. We thought it was a superior production to the original west end. Bigger orchestra filling out the music. Great chap playing Joe Gillis. Glenn Close was amazing - chills, chills and chills. Huge star. Super-skilled actress. A proper hurricane atrength tour-de-force.
Very happy xx
Superior production to original West End!? Discuss! Will let you know as soon as I've seen it. (Can still remember the excitement of another big ALW show opening in the WE...) Ah, those were the days... |
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Post by Dave25 on May 1, 2016 21:08:25 GMT
Because I really love the show, the grandeur and the music. I thought all other roles were cast quite well, and loved the orchestra and overall production and still had a fine night, I just think the production deserved a better Norma. I saw someone acting in an unnatural way and struggling, and avoiding every little detail in the role and music that is important to me. The natural thing I described above.
I kept thinking: "how can she get away with this"? Any other person would be invited to the production office immediately. And even weirder was to see the person sitting next to me hyperventilating with joy, at every completely failed note/wasted moment. I thought: "what is this person's reference"?
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Post by couldileaveyou on May 1, 2016 21:59:14 GMT
Funny to think that Kander considers Dench the best Sally and Sondheim said that her rendition of send in the clowns is the most emotional he has ever heard.
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Post by Dave25 on May 1, 2016 22:44:24 GMT
Sondheim thinks "Into the woods" is good too. I thought it was horrific.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 1, 2016 22:55:04 GMT
Because I really love the show, the grandeur and the music. I thought all other roles were cast quite well, and loved the orchestra and overall production and still had a fine night, I just think the production deserved a better Norma. I saw someone acting in an unnatural way and struggling, and avoiding every little detail in the role and music that is important to me. The natural thing I described above. I kept thinking: "how can she get away with this"? Any other person would be invited to the production office immediately. And even weirder was to see the person sitting next to me hyperventilating with joy, at every completely failed note/moment. I thought "what is this person's reference"? Lol ok |
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Post by d'James on May 1, 2016 22:58:20 GMT
Yes I hated Into the Woods, but loved Glenn Close. Go figure!
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Post by max on May 1, 2016 23:01:26 GMT
Sondheim thinks "Into the woods" is good too. I thought it was horrific. Do you mean his opinion of the film of ITW or his own writing of the musical? I'm not keen on either. "Withers wither with her". Oh dear. Can't wait to see for myself at Sunset re this debate on playing through singing. |
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Post by anthony40 on May 2, 2016 9:26:52 GMT
Sondheim thinks "Into the woods" is good too. I thought it was horrific. I don't know you and whilst I appreciate everyone has differing opinions,with respect I'm gonna make Sondheim's opinion over yours any day. |
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Post by distantcousin on May 2, 2016 16:22:48 GMT
Michael Xavier weak? Not one bit. The naked scene unnecessary? Now you are just being silly.... It was a particular favourite of mine and a lot of the audiences I suspect. Was at the matinee today and left definitely feeling I had witnessed something special. He isn't a weak performer by any stretch, but in my opinion he was not that suited to the part, and even worse he was directed wrongly. Most of my friends who've seen it agree. |
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Post by distantcousin on May 2, 2016 16:25:22 GMT
I'm with Joe on this. Xavier is serviceable, but really not a match to his Norma, Max and Betty. He's of course vocally very capable, but.. He lacks the self-hate and the grit Joe should embody. In the title song he just whizzes through it without much depth. And I agree with Joe that it's all very jazz-hands with him (though I also think that he's been directed this way). TOTALLY. He "plays the gallery" for most of the duration, trying to get the audience "on side" in a way that is wholly untrue to the character. A combination of the actor and director has made him a far too likeable Joe. He is not the "hero" of the piece, for god's sake. Too much big gesturing too (like you say "jazz hands") |
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Post by distantcousin on May 2, 2016 16:26:53 GMT
Yeah it could be a direction thing. It just seemed very basic acting, oh I need to emphasise an emotion I better throw my arms and hands out. I've liked michael xavier until this, but I'd be put off seeing him in another dramatic role now. Shame as I think joe is one of the better male roles in musical theatre My suspicion is that he is too lightweight a performer to do anything beyond musical comedy convincingly. (sorry to all those on here who adore him through rose tinted specs) |
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Post by distantcousin on May 2, 2016 16:31:32 GMT
the matinee audience yesterday were respectful and applauding at the end of numbers not interrupting them, and not jumping to their feet every second. It's an interesting piece isn't it, as everyone loses out one way or another. Norma loses, Betty loses, Joe loses as does Max. Yes it is Norma who is the overbearing character but it is essentially Joe's tragedy. he is the one caught up and destroyed by Hollywood. He has the most complex journey and is on stage more than Norma. Just a thought. it's not unlike Doctor Faustus...... You've hit the nail on the head. I read a similar observation in quite a detail review only yesterday (of a production in the USA). SB really is Joe's story/journey, but Norma - especially in the musical version - steals the glory. |
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Post by crabtree on May 2, 2016 16:41:06 GMT
So, am I right in assuming that Norma is expecting the funeral director for the monkey on her first appearance, and mistake Joe for him. Now there's a side story....what happened to the funeral director
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