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Post by andrew on Jun 14, 2023 20:24:25 GMT
I'm glad others have found Lily Allen as disappointing as I did, I wondered if I was necessarily harsh on her performance, it's always tempting to hate on a celebrity nudging into acting. I hated 2:22 and she was just one cog in that, in this she's the real centrepiece and she just... lacks. Her whole performance is very flat, you don't really build up any sympathy for her, you don't really care about her, she's not that funny. I wonder what happened behind the scenes that led to her casting, given it was a male in the role previously. Is it that the director had a Covid-related brainwave and suddenly saw Katurian as a female and searched for the perfect vessel for that idea and Lily Allen provided that in an audition? Or is it that when searching about for a new celebrity cast member when Aaron Taylor Johnson dropped out in the reschedule Lily Allen's agent was the most persuasive? She isn't right for the role, her casting was a mistake, and to be honest I think she should find a different avenue for her creative juices than theatre acting. What's the other common factor connecting Lily Allen with Ghost Story 2:22 and The Pillowman? Director Matthew Dunster. I believe it's as simple as that. Ah, didn't spot that. He obviously likes her! Might've preferred Cheryl Cole as Katurian. |
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jun 14, 2023 22:03:06 GMT
I’ve never understood the Lily Allen suddenly being considered an actress thing. She’s been absolutely unconvincing in everything so far.
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Post by Steve on Jun 14, 2023 23:01:54 GMT
Saw this tonight and really enjoyed it. Some spoilers follow. . . Matthew Tennyson and Paul Kaye are both on fire, breathing the kind of zany oddball internal lives into their characters, that makes for excellent dark comedy. It's still early days in the previews, so the fact that Lily Allen and Steve Pemberton are not really self-starting emotionally, and are only sparking when the above two light matches under them (ie when Allen is reacting to Tennyson, and when Pemberton is reacting to Kaye) doesn't mean they won't get there later in the run. The play can be seen a dark comedy about 4 "storytellers," who base their identities and egos on the stories they tell themselves and about themselves. The original cast was nigh on perfect, with all cast members in touch with their dark obsessions, and the way those dark obsessions and egos bounced off and conflicted with each other, brought out the funny. If Pemberton and Allen find their centres, and stoke the fire of those centres (both need to be less placid in their aspects in their obsessional conceptions of their worlds, like Kaye and Tennyson are), then the humour of the production will increase exponentially. The play is a gem (albeit a passage where Pemberton's character is racist plays as more Tarantino gratuitous than it once did), and despite some flat moments in this early preview, I felt a full 4 stars of theatrical excitement overall. Unlike Blair's government, this really can only get better, as all 4 actors have a solid foundation to build on.  PS: There was one 5 minute production stop between the two scenes of the first half, and the show finished at 10:20pm. |
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Post by Mark on Jun 14, 2023 23:04:31 GMT
BurlyBeaR could we get a poll on this one please
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Post by alessia on Jun 15, 2023 9:11:03 GMT
I'm curious to see this after the comments, if I get the chance of a cheap ticket - frankly I'm quite glad I didn't shell out months ago. Will be interesting to see the press reviews.
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Post by Steve on Jun 15, 2023 10:22:44 GMT
I'm curious to see this after the comments, if I get the chance of a cheap ticket - frankly I'm quite glad I didn't shell out months ago. Will be interesting to see the press reviews. If you want to see it, I suggest letting it bed in, and book further down the line than even press night. It will get funnier as the actors push their characters' agendas harder and butt heads more. At the moment, Lily Allen and Steve Pemberton are still finding their feet, and are a bit too tentative. It will get much better, I think. |
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Post by theatrefan77 on Jun 15, 2023 23:34:49 GMT
I'm curious to see this after the comments, if I get the chance of a cheap ticket - frankly I'm quite glad I didn't shell out months ago. Will be interesting to see the press reviews. If you want to see it, I suggest letting it bed in, and book further down the line than even press night. It will get funnier as the actors push their characters' agendas harder and butt heads more. At the moment, Lily Allen and Steve Pemberton are still finding their feet, and are a bit too tentative. It will get much better, I think. Thanks for your suggestion. I was going to try for a day seat this week, but I've decided to wait a bit longer |
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Post by Marwood on Jun 16, 2023 19:19:51 GMT
This is the first production of a Martin McDonagh play since I saw the Beauty Queen of Leenane at the Young Vic that I’m not tempted to see, it just sounds like expensive rubbish: ‘Hold on, let them settle in, give them a chance’ : for the prices they’re charging everyone involved should have settled in weeks, if not months ago.
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Post by wiggymess on Jun 16, 2023 21:00:57 GMT
This is the first production of a Martin McDonagh play since I saw the Beauty Queen of Leenane at the Young Vic that I’m not tempted to see, it just sounds like expensive rubbish: ‘Hold on, let them settle in, give them a chance’ : for the prices they’re charging everyone involved should have settled in weeks, if not months ago. The actors should have settled into performing their roles months before performing their roles?? That'll be a relief for actors performing in shows at cheaper theatres, knowing they're allowed longer to settle in. |
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Post by Marwood on Jun 17, 2023 14:28:57 GMT
This is the first production of a Martin McDonagh play since I saw the Beauty Queen of Leenane at the Young Vic that I’m not tempted to see, it just sounds like expensive rubbish: ‘Hold on, let them settle in, give them a chance’ : for the prices they’re charging everyone involved should have settled in weeks, if not months ago. The actors should have settled into performing their roles months before performing their roles?? That'll be a relief for actors performing in shows at cheaper theatres, knowing they're allowed longer to settle in. They should have been in rehearsals for several weeks and the producer should have been taking notes and trying to push the actors in the right direction: while it’s not all of the original actors that were supposed to be in it, this production has been in the works for ages, so it’s not like it came together in a ‘let’s put on a show!’ concept in a theatrical club last week. I’m sure productions at ‘cheaper’ theatres workshop their productions prior to starting a run. |
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Post by wiggymess on Jun 17, 2023 17:52:44 GMT
The actors should have settled into performing their roles months before performing their roles?? That'll be a relief for actors performing in shows at cheaper theatres, knowing they're allowed longer to settle in. They should have been in rehearsals for several weeks and the producer should have been taking notes and trying to push the actors in the right direction: while it’s not all of the original actors that were supposed to be in it, this production has been in the works for ages, so it’s not like it came together in a ‘let’s put on a show!’ concept in a theatrical club last week. I’m sure productions at ‘cheaper’ theatres workshop their productions prior to starting a run. I know all that, but it's pretty obvious performing in front of a packed theatre is a completely different kettle of fish, suggesting otherwise is just strange. Might take time to settle into that. Although I'm aware that doesn't fit into the entitled modern narrative. |
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Post by david on Jun 18, 2023 9:48:39 GMT
A few thought’s from yesterday’s viewing. I was sat in F10 of the upper circle and was a decent seat. Nothing was missed from the stage. We had no technical issues with the moving sets. As a fan of Neil Mcdonagh’s dark comedy writing there was much to enjoy in this production.
From the cast, Pemberton and Kaye have got some good on stage chemistry developing (the dark comedy landed for me when these two got going) and Tennyson as the young brother is also a good watch. Now with Lilly, I’m sorry I couldn’t buy into her performance at all. For me I found it a very monotone performance and any humour in the writing was diluted by her acting. If you are telling a story, try and bring some energy and life to it to make it interesting and fun. The laughs came from the material rather than a combination of her performance and text. Now in contrast Pemberton tells a story in Act 2 that when watching it unfold is both engaging and funny.
For those interested, there is one loud bang and some very bright lights in Act 2 which from my seat certainly blinded me for a few moments.
An interesting watch but came out thinking it was ok rather than being a piece of great theatre.
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Post by Stephen on Jun 18, 2023 17:34:36 GMT
A few thought’s from yesterday’s viewing. I was sat in F10 of the upper circle and was a decent seat. Nothing was missed from the stage. We had no technical issues with the moving sets. As a fan of Neil Mcdonagh’s dark comedy writing there was much to enjoy in this production. From the cast, Pemberton and Kaye have got some good on stage chemistry developing (the dark comedy landed for me when these two got going) and Tennyson as the young brother is also a good watch. Now with Lilly, I’m sorry I couldn’t buy into her performance at all. For me I found it a very monotone performance and any humour in the writing was diluted by her acting. If you are telling a story, try and bring some energy and life to it to make it interesting and fun. The laughs came from the material rather than a combination of her performance and text. Now in contrast Pemberton tells a story in Act 2 that when watching it unfold is both engaging and funny. For those interested, there is one loud bang and some very bright lights in Act 2 which from my seat certainly blinded me for a few moments. An interesting watch but came out thinking it was ok rather than being a piece of great theatre. May I ask - big spoiler in the question... {Spoiler - click to view}
Is the loud bang just the gunshot towards the end? |
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Post by david on Jun 18, 2023 17:49:13 GMT
A few thought’s from yesterday’s viewing. I was sat in F10 of the upper circle and was a decent seat. Nothing was missed from the stage. We had no technical issues with the moving sets. As a fan of Neil Mcdonagh’s dark comedy writing there was much to enjoy in this production. From the cast, Pemberton and Kaye have got some good on stage chemistry developing (the dark comedy landed for me when these two got going) and Tennyson as the young brother is also a good watch. Now with Lilly, I’m sorry I couldn’t buy into her performance at all. For me I found it a very monotone performance and any humour in the writing was diluted by her acting. If you are telling a story, try and bring some energy and life to it to make it interesting and fun. The laughs came from the material rather than a combination of her performance and text. Now in contrast Pemberton tells a story in Act 2 that when watching it unfold is both engaging and funny. For those interested, there is one loud bang and some very bright lights in Act 2 which from my seat certainly blinded me for a few moments. An interesting watch but came out thinking it was ok rather than being a piece of great theatre. May I ask - big spoiler in the question... {Spoiler - click to view}
Is the loud bang just the gunshot towards the end? Yeah that’s it Stephen. |
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Post by Stephen on Jun 21, 2023 22:14:46 GMT
A few thought’s from yesterday’s viewing. I was sat in F10 of the upper circle and was a decent seat. Nothing was missed from the stage. We had no technical issues with the moving sets. As a fan of Neil Mcdonagh’s dark comedy writing there was much to enjoy in this production. From the cast, Pemberton and Kaye have got some good on stage chemistry developing (the dark comedy landed for me when these two got going) and Tennyson as the young brother is also a good watch. Now with Lilly, I’m sorry I couldn’t buy into her performance at all. For me I found it a very monotone performance and any humour in the writing was diluted by her acting. If you are telling a story, try and bring some energy and life to it to make it interesting and fun. The laughs came from the material rather than a combination of her performance and text. Now in contrast Pemberton tells a story in Act 2 that when watching it unfold is both engaging and funny. For those interested, there is one loud bang and some very bright lights in Act 2 which from my seat certainly blinded me for a few moments. An interesting watch but came out thinking it was ok rather than being a piece of great theatre. I agree with your thoughts about Pemberton and Kaye with Kaye being the standout in this for me. However I can't say the same about the play as a whole. Overall it was very poor. Miscast. The humour didn't land which made it feel bleak and long. There were no stakes. A real miss. Pity because I enjoyed reading this play years ago. Oh, and this one comes without really any warnings that I could see about content. Be reassured, it's not one for the kids. Some of the content is so bleak and graphic in description that seeing it onstage made me squirm a bit. 2 Stars. |
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Post by couldileaveyou on Jun 22, 2023 9:21:20 GMT
Reviews are okayish but nobody seems particularly sold on Allen
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Post by harry on Jun 22, 2023 10:25:13 GMT
Reviews are okayish but nobody seems particularly sold on Allen It’s a real shame. When you see the play and quite how much the whole thing revolves around this character (she’s only offstage for about 1 minute of the entire show) it just seems so obvious that it would be incredibly risky to cast an untrained actor with one stage credit in that part. And that risk has completely backfired. The two reviews I was able to read so far not behind a paywall (Evening Standard and WOS) both also mentioned the ablism and racism in the play which as I said previously struck me as old fashioned. It’s not just that the horrible cops use the language but also that Katurian (Lily Allen’s character) firstly protests that her brother isn’t a *ablist slur* - something that strikes me as making her character complicit in the idea that being disabled is a bad thing to be ashamed of - and then later uses another ablist slur directly to her brother when she’s angry. And I just don’t think the writing is nuanced or careful enough for either of these things to be justified in the mouth of the heroine. Maybe the Gen Z wokeness is rubbing off on me (maybe that’s a good thing!), but I know that, as a gay person, if those slurs had been homophobic rather than ablist, and I felt the audience had been invited to laugh in the way they are, I’d have struggled to find the play anything other than meritless-ly offensive. |
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Post by lynette on Jun 22, 2023 11:37:00 GMT
I’ll never understand why people loved this first time round.
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Post by mkb on Jun 22, 2023 11:38:25 GMT
... as a gay person, if those slurs had been homophobic rather than ablist, and I felt the audience had been invited to laugh in the way they are, I’d have struggled to find the play anything other than meritless-ly offensive. I'm gay, but I'm the opposite. I squirm when I see dramas set in past decades and the characters are all so gay-friendly or using nuanced 2023-speak to refer to gay people. I hate that historical revisionism. I just want to scream: "it wasn't like that!". People need to see how homophobic most of their parents, grand-parents, etc. really were. When older plays are performed, I'm very much in favour of not updating any of the dialogue for reasons of offending modern sensibilities. We must not airbrush our history. |
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Post by harry on Jun 22, 2023 12:04:22 GMT
... as a gay person, if those slurs had been homophobic rather than ablist, and I felt the audience had been invited to laugh in the way they are, I’d have struggled to find the play anything other than meritless-ly offensive. I'm gay, but I'm the opposite. I squirm when I see dramas set in past decades and the characters are all so gay-friendly or using nuanced 2023-speak to refer to gay people. I hate that historical revisionism. I just want to scream: "it wasn't like that!". People need to see how homophobic most of their parents, grand-parents, etc. really were. When older plays are performed, I'm very much in favour of not updating any of the dialogue for reasons of offending modern sensibilities. We must not airbrush our history. I don’t think I disagree with you in a broad sense. I’m not asking for the characters to be rewritten as kinder or more thoughtful than they are. But one thing that I love about theatre is the dialogue between writer, production, and contemporary audience. A play can of course be “of its time” but we can’t ignore the fact an audience is of its own time too and that any production should aim to speak to its audience while honouring the writer. For me there’s no one size fits all rule, it’s all about context. In this instance fir the most part I don’t see what purpose the language serves other than to try and raise a laugh, and without contextualising that somehow (that’s up to the director) it just felt like the play is asking us to be in on that “joke” and that made me a bit queasy. e.g. I guess I just don’t find a white guy putting on a cod-Chinese accent and that being the extent of the joke something funny or something that I feel comfortable being implicitly asked to laugh at. |
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Post by mkb on Jun 22, 2023 12:08:47 GMT
The Chinese accent thing is not meant to be funny. It's meant to make you squirm. It tells you a lot about the character.
27/06/23: Sorry, I only just spotted that I missed the crucial word "not" out of the first sentence.
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Post by harry on Jun 22, 2023 12:19:38 GMT
The Chinese accent thing is meant to be funny. It's meant to make you squirm. It tells you a lot about the character. Except for me it told me nothing that wasn’t already patently clear about the character from the previous 2 hours of the play, and wasn’t funny, so was just racist. 🤷🏻♂️ |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2023 1:44:22 GMT
I don't think that words should really be changed in historic plays set in a certain time periods when that sort of language was used. West Side Story has words which would be considered racist now but productions of that cannot make any changes I believe.
I'd have a new play set say in 1970's if it used racist or offensive language for laughs. If it was for drama then that is showing what people especially of colour had had to put up with.
Apparently imbecile and dumb are listed as ablist slurs so have we really go that PC but I guess the words in Pillowman were much stronger.
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Post by teamyali on Jun 23, 2023 15:32:56 GMT
Review round up of The Pillowman (paywall article from The Stage) - www.thestage.co.uk/review-round-ups/the-pillowman-at-the-duke-of-yorks-starring-lily-allen--review-round-upEven the 4 star reviews some publications gave the show agree with the others that Lily Allen is not up to the role, which is a shame because the play is regarded as one of the contemporary British classics and its themes are topical. I can’t help but think that her Olivier nomination for 2:22 was a fluke. Somebody mentioned here that Cheryl could have been a better choice for Katurian. If not Lily, whose actress could be more suited to the role? |
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Post by andrew on Jun 23, 2023 15:51:09 GMT
If not Lily, whose actress could be more suited to the role? Literally any trained stage-actress. |
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