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Post by alwfan on Jul 14, 2021 8:58:29 GMT
I have been a long time ALW fan and have loved all his work from The Likes Of Us to School Of Rock, and there has never been any part or any of his scores that 8 haven't loved from the first listen (Yes, even Stephen Ward)
However, with Cinderella it took me a few listens for the score to really embed itself in my mind. I was initially really disappointed after the the first round, but it slowly grew on me, and while I don't think it will ever be a favourite, it is still pretty good. The 4 songs that were released prior to the recording are the best of the lot, and Only You, Lonely You is probably the greatest/catchiest song that he has written in the last 20 year.
Unbreakable, I Am No Longer Me, Moment of Triumph and Unfair have still not registered themselves in my mind, and I feel they never will. On the other hand, I Know You, Marry For Love, Man's Man, Buns N Roses and So Long more than make up for them. He still has it in him.
I wish there was a bigger reprise of Only You, Lonely You.
I enjoyed spotting the usual 'lifts' and echoes from his previous work. The chorus of Beauty Has A Price is almost the same as Devil Take The Hindmost (with a few additional notes) and has a few echoes from English Girls (the Broadway Song and Dance). So Long has the most brazen lift of all from I Hope You Like It Here and also a bit from Don't Like You (from The Beautiful Game). The Vanquishing sounds a lot like When I Climb To The Top Of Mount Rock, and Only You, Lonely You has bits of If Only You Would Listen.
Any ALW score is better than no score, and the one thing this shows is that ALW still has it in him to write a fabulous musical, and I hope he does many more.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Jul 14, 2021 9:00:48 GMT
Sad to already see reports of terrible behaviour from people in the audience. Have to add the worst I've seen in a long time: Queen walks in at the end of Hunk's Song and says her line 'what's going on?' and someone in the stalls calls out 'yeah, what is going on?' By all means have your opinions, but good god don't share them with the cast, and the rest of the theatre, mid-show?!!
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Post by steve10086 on Jul 14, 2021 9:06:30 GMT
Sad to already see reports of terrible behaviour from people in the audience. Have to add the worst I've seen in a long time: Queen walks in at the end of Hunk's Song and says her line 'what's going on?' and someone in the stalls calls out 'yeah, what is going on?' By all means have your opinions, but good god don't share them with the cast, and the rest of the theatre, mid-show?!! Not condoning the behaviour, but sounds like a fair question  |
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Post by fiyerorocher on Jul 14, 2021 9:10:49 GMT
Sad to already see reports of terrible behaviour from people in the audience. Have to add the worst I've seen in a long time: Queen walks in at the end of Hunk's Song and says her line 'what's going on?' and someone in the stalls calls out 'yeah, what is going on?' By all means have your opinions, but good god don't share them with the cast, and the rest of the theatre, mid-show?!! Not condoning the behaviour, but sounds like a fair question And if that's someone's opinion they can think it to themselves and discuss it with their party in the interval. Or shout about it on social media for all I care, but interrupting the cast like that is entirely out of line. I was sat in the circle and still heard it, so the cast on stage absolutely could. It was possibly the worst theatre etiquette I've ever seen, especially during previews. |
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Post by alece10 on Jul 14, 2021 9:50:55 GMT
Sad to already see reports of terrible behaviour from people in the audience. Have to add the worst I've seen in a long time: Queen walks in at the end of Hunk's Song and says her line 'what's going on?' and someone in the stalls calls out 'yeah, what is going on?' By all means have your opinions, but good god don't share them with the cast, and the rest of the theatre, mid-show?!! Probably as its called Cinderella people think it's a panto and can shout out. In my review last week I mentioned that some people in the audience were a bit "vocal". |
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Post by fiyerorocher on Jul 14, 2021 10:06:18 GMT
Sad to already see reports of terrible behaviour from people in the audience. Have to add the worst I've seen in a long time: Queen walks in at the end of Hunk's Song and says her line 'what's going on?' and someone in the stalls calls out 'yeah, what is going on?' By all means have your opinions, but good god don't share them with the cast, and the rest of the theatre, mid-show?!! Probably as its called Cinderella people think it's a panto and can shout out. In my review last week I mentioned that some people in the audience were a bit "vocal". I think it's pretty clear it isn't a panto once it starts. I've seen people cheer lines of dialogue and the like, but shouting things out like that is a whole different matter. 'Cinderella' is also the name of the R&H musical and it's still not appropriate to heckle the cast there either! There is really no excuse. |
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Post by karloscar on Jul 14, 2021 11:18:22 GMT
"Yeah what is going on?" seems fairly mundane as far as heckles go. You wouldn't have wanted to be around in Shakespeare's time. Polite audience behaviour is a fairly recent, and apparently temporary phenomenon. But people have always made it clear if a performance is not up to standard. ( "She's in the attic!" when the soldiers arrive in the Diary of Anne Frank is my favourite.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Jul 14, 2021 11:41:30 GMT
"Yeah what is going on?" seems fairly mundane as far as heckles go. You wouldn't have wanted to be around in Shakespeare's time. Polite audience behaviour is a fairly recent, and apparently temporary phenomenon. But people have always made it clear if a performance is not up to standard. ( "She's in the attic!" when the soldiers arrive in the Diary of Anne Frank is my favourite. I'm not really sure that suggesting theatre audiences are better-behaved now than in Shakespeare's time is really much of a sensible argument here. Theatre is entirely different on so many levels that the experiences are really not directly compatible. There is, in my opinion, no excuse to shout out rudely at hard-working actors, especially after over a year with no theatre, just because you don't like the show. Don't like it? Leave, or at the very least keep it to yourself until the interval. Don't try to disrupt the performers and the rest of the audience. Smacks of self-centredness. No one paid to hear the opinion of a rude random audience member. There are plenty of shows I've seen and not liked or thought were sub-par. I'm still never going yell at the actors mid-show about it. |
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Post by alece10 on Jul 14, 2021 12:08:05 GMT
Was probably one of the board members who gave it a 1 star rating.
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Post by karloscar on Jul 14, 2021 12:27:45 GMT
"Yeah what is going on?" seems fairly mundane as far as heckles go. You wouldn't have wanted to be around in Shakespeare's time. Polite audience behaviour is a fairly recent, and apparently temporary phenomenon. But people have always made it clear if a performance is not up to standard. ( "She's in the attic!" when the soldiers arrive in the Diary of Anne Frank is my favourite. I'm not really sure that suggesting theatre audiences are better-behaved now than in Shakespeare's time is really much of a sensible argument here. Theatre is entirely different on so many levels that the experiences are really not directly compatible. There is, in my opinion, no excuse to shout out rudely at hard-working actors, especially after over a year with no theatre, just because you don't like the show. Don't like it? Leave, or at the very least keep it to yourself until the interval. Don't try to disrupt the performers and the rest of the audience. Smacks of self-centredness. No one paid to hear the opinion of a rude random audience member. There are plenty of shows I've seen and not liked or thought were sub-par. I'm still never going yell at the actors mid-show about it. I'm not saying I approve of such behaviour, I've been known to tell people to shut up for talking through the overture on occasion. But one of the wonders of theatre is that it's live and an audience affects each performance in different ways. Sometimes a heckle is exactly what's needed, and some performers thrive on that interaction. To say that it's never acceptable is just wrong. |
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Post by inthenose on Jul 14, 2021 12:31:48 GMT
At least it's fairly witty as far as heckles go. Better than "get ya kit off" some drunk woman in a hen do yelled at Sky in "Mamma Mia" when I saw it. And she did it twice.
Not that I condone heckling, except at panto where frankly it makes the work tolerable. Our leading boy in Aladdin got yelled at by a savvy little girl in the front; "wait.. Aladdin is a GIRL!" at a "dramatic" moment. The whole audience erupted with laughter, Jasmine and Aladdin took several minutes to compose themselves. Absolute scenes!
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Post by fiyerorocher on Jul 14, 2021 12:34:11 GMT
I'm not really sure that suggesting theatre audiences are better-behaved now than in Shakespeare's time is really much of a sensible argument here. Theatre is entirely different on so many levels that the experiences are really not directly compatible. There is, in my opinion, no excuse to shout out rudely at hard-working actors, especially after over a year with no theatre, just because you don't like the show. Don't like it? Leave, or at the very least keep it to yourself until the interval. Don't try to disrupt the performers and the rest of the audience. Smacks of self-centredness. No one paid to hear the opinion of a rude random audience member. There are plenty of shows I've seen and not liked or thought were sub-par. I'm still never going yell at the actors mid-show about it. I'm not saying I approve of such behaviour, I've been known to tell people to shut up for talking through the overture on occasion. But one of the wonders of theatre is that it's live and an audience affects each performance in different ways. Sometimes a heckle is exactly what's needed, and some performers thrive on that interaction. To say that it's never acceptable is just wrong. No I'm actually quite happy to state that one quite emphatically: it is always wrong to heckle performers. Unless it's clearly invited (like it might be at a panto), you have no right to try and insert yourself into the performance like that. No one else in the theatre wants to hear you. |
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Post by andrew on Jul 14, 2021 13:40:54 GMT
God 159 pages in and finally I can join the discussion.
I was there last night and had a jolly time. It's a million miles away from anyone's best work, but it's a perfectly serviceable mainstream show that might carve out a living for itself.
As noted we had understudy Sebastian again and I actually really liked the actor, I'd have been perfectly happy with him in the main role, I don't agree he lacked charisma, I just think he was playing Sebastian the way he's written - a normal bloke living in a completely stupid garish world. His "Only You" (which I ended up liking a lot more in context than the bland video performance) was great. Carrie Hope Fletcher reminds us once again that she's a proper musical theatre actress, and puts in a great turn. She has a lot less to do than in Heathers, which probably will remain for a long time the best example of her work, and I think the gothy look of Cinderella is horrendous, but she's still very clearly the star of the show.
The first section to me was the worst, I didn't really enjoy the opening number, and Bad Cinderella in context was truly awful. It was a perfect example of why Lawrence Connor is a dreadful director. You needed a Trevor Nunn or a Nick Hytner or a Hal Prince to say "sorry what on earth is this song?", demand better lyrics, set and then choreograph it in a scenario that isn't cringetacular. He gets away with directing shows that have already been directed by someone else, when he's given something new to do we just end up with these messy shows that are lacking a leader, and certainly a leader who knows how to do anything that isn't obvious and stage-schoolish. Putting big time serious theatrical directors in charge of mainstream musicals has long been a recipe for success, I'm not sure why we're being tortured with this guy every time Cameron or Andrew put on a new production.
The rest of the cast were all good, I'm slightly mystified as to why Victoria Hamilton-Barritt was cast in this, she's not old enough for the old dame role she was playing, and she's so much more talented than any of the material she was given. She creates a good few laughs which is a credit to her, it just doesn't sit like a normal bit of casting for me.
The design of the show seemed to be on the slightly lower end of the budget, from a very normal circle seat I could see a lot of things being pulled on or off when they were supposed to be in darkness, could see a lot of actors taking up marks behind a piece of scenery. The lighting was good, and obviously the act 2 opening special effect was interesting to see, although to be honest I thought could have been done better. Incredibly boring choreography, just a little bit uninspired for what could have been a really awe-inspiring moment. The side effect is as well that the circle can't see 30% of the stage until the ball is over, missing key entrances and bits of scenes at different points. It could be easily fixed with better blocking, just lazy directing once again.
Underneath all of this there is a decent score with some good songs and a good few ideas in terms of story and ideas. All of the big numbers I enjoyed, I knew I was in an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical, and I was happy for it. I was slightly underwhelmed in terms of the feminist aspect of the show, because of Emerald Fennel's involvement and remarks Carrie had made I thought it was be a bit more feminist than it actually was. Ultimately after all the changes it's still a show about women fighting with each other over marrying a man.
I saw a lot of the discourse on here about the midnight aspect of the storyline, and whilst I think there is a clear reason she has to be home by midnight, they might as well have just dumped it. The necklace significance, the godmother, the significance of midnight other than that's just the deadline for the prince to make his choice could all be wiped and the story would probably be clearer. Like did I miss something, she goes to a shop, a character calling herself the Godmother exchanges a nice necklace for a wig, some makeup, a dress and some shoes. By midnight they'll have cut into her feet a bit. Later the Godmother randomly gives the necklace back, at the end it's held up like somehow the necklace did something. But the necklace did nothing? The Godmother was just a woman? The midnight time meaning she'll have sore feet is just odd and misplaced right? They either need to ramp up some kind of magical quality of the necklace and the godmother to make any of it mean anything, or jettison it as a concept.
I'm being very negative here because there are just so many obvious fixes. Andrew Lloyd Webber is too old to be doing this without an incredibly rigorous creative team with him and a director who can drive the ship forward and sort out the issues. They had plenty of time, this wasn't a rush job, but I feel they've slightly squandered what could have been a great show, and have made an alright show instead. I had fun because it's a new musical and there were some good songs, a good cast, some laughs and everyone was having a good time, but the West End deserves better than this. I'm going to hit 3 stars above, I think if I was less of a sourpuss I could have hit 4 on a better day. My companion I think would have given it 2, she really got nothing out of the evening. I really struggle to see the perspective of either the 1 or 5 star reviewers, but of course you are allowed to rate things how you choose.
Do better, Andrew.
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Post by singingbird on Jul 14, 2021 14:07:12 GMT
God 159 pages in and finally I can join the discussion. I was there last night and had a jolly time. It's a million miles away from anyone's best work, but it's a perfectly serviceable mainstream show that might carve out a living for itself. As noted we had understudy Sebastian again and I actually really liked the actor, I'd have been perfectly happy with him in the main role, I don't agree he lacked charisma, I just think he was playing Sebastian the way he's written - a normal bloke living in a completely stupid garish world. His "Only You" (which I ended up liking a lot more in context than the bland video performance) was great. Carrie Hope Fletcher reminds us once again that she's a proper musical theatre actress, and puts in a great turn. She has a lot less to do than in Heathers, which probably will remain for a long time the best example of her work, and I think the gothy look of Cinderella is horrendous, but she's still very clearly the star of the show. The first section to me was the worst, I didn't really enjoy the opening number, and Bad Cinderella in context was truly awful. It was a perfect example of why Lawrence Connor is a dreadful director. You needed a Trevor Nunn or a Nick Hytner or a Hal Prince to say "sorry what on earth is this song?", demand better lyrics, set and then choreograph it in a scenario that isn't cringetacular. He gets away with directing shows that have already been directed by someone else, when he's given something new to do we just end up with these messy shows that are lacking a leader, and certainly a leader who knows how to do anything that isn't obvious and stage-schoolish. Putting big time serious theatrical directors in charge of mainstream musicals has long been a recipe for success, I'm not sure why we're being tortured with this guy every time Cameron or Andrew put on a new production. The rest of the cast were all good, I'm slightly mystified as to why Victoria Hamilton-Barritt was cast in this, she's not old enough for the old dame role she was playing, and she's so much more talented than any of the material she was given. She creates a good few laughs which is a credit to her, it just doesn't sit like a normal bit of casting for me. The design of the show seemed to be on the slightly lower end of the budget, from a very normal circle seat I could see a lot of things being pulled on or off when they were supposed to be in darkness, could see a lot of actors taking up marks behind a piece of scenery. The lighting was good, and obviously the act 2 opening special effect was interesting to see, although to be honest I thought could have been done better. Incredibly boring choreography, just a little bit uninspired for what could have been a really awe-inspiring moment. The side effect is as well that the circle can't see 30% of the stage until the ball is over, missing key entrances and bits of scenes at different points. It could be easily fixed with better blocking, just lazy directing once again. Underneath all of this there is a decent score with some good songs and a good few ideas in terms of story and ideas. All of the big numbers I enjoyed, I knew I was in an Andrew Lloyd Webber musical, and I was happy for it. I was slightly underwhelmed in terms of the feminist aspect of the show, because of Emerald Fennel's involvement and remarks Carrie had made I thought it was be a bit more feminist than it actually was. Ultimately after all the changes it's still a show about women fighting with each other over marrying a man. I saw a lot of the discourse on here about the midnight aspect of the storyline, and whilst I think there is a clear reason she has to be home by midnight, they might as well have just dumped it. The necklace significance, the godmother, the significance of midnight other than that's just the deadline for the prince to make his choice could all be wiped and the story would probably be clearer. Like did I miss something, she goes to a shop, a character calling herself the Godmother exchanges a nice necklace for a wig, some makeup, a dress and some shoes. By midnight they'll have cut into her feet a bit. Later the Godmother randomly gives the necklace back, at the end it's held up like somehow the necklace did something. But the necklace did nothing? The Godmother was just a woman? The midnight time meaning she'll have sore feet is just odd and misplaced right? They either need to ramp up some kind of magical quality of the necklace and the godmother to make any of it mean anything, or jettison it as a concept. I'm being very negative here because there are just so many obvious fixes. Andrew Lloyd Webber is too old to be doing this without an incredibly rigorous creative team with him and a director who can drive the ship forward and sort out the issues. They had plenty of time, this wasn't a rush job, but I feel they've slightly squandered what could have been a great show, and have made an alright show instead. I had fun because it's a new musical and there were some good songs, a good cast, some laughs and everyone was having a good time, but the West End deserves better than this. I'm going to hit 3 stars above, I think if I was less of a sourpuss I could have hit 4 on a better day. My companion I think would have given it 2, she really got nothing out of the evening. I really struggle to see the perspective of either the 1 or 5 star reviewers, but of course you are allowed to rate things how you choose. Do better, Andrew. Seriously good analysis. The more I listen to the cast recording, the more I realise that a lot of the blame lies with Mr Connor. There is actually the basis of a really good score in there - albeit seriously undermined by the programmed keyboards and drums. Unbreakable, I Know You, Man's Man, Three-Headed Sea Witch and So Long (as well as I Know I Have a Heart, Lonely You and Far Too Late) all have potentially really strong music, and there are really interesting things going on rhythmically and harmonically at other points too. Bot, oh boy, this show needed a strong hand at the helm to focus it and walk the difficult line between being knowingly naff (e.g. Hunk's Song) and just plain naff. That's a hard thing to get right and that's a job way beyond this director's talents, unfortunately. |
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Post by fiyerorocher on Jul 14, 2021 14:15:55 GMT
Definitely agree about the necklace. It's a sweet moment when Sebastian returns it, but it really makes no sense as part of the plot. Why is the godmother happy to hand over a dress and one-of-a-kind shoes made out of crystal in exchange for it, just to give it back to Sebastian at the end for no reason?? It would be better if the Godmother had some kind of motivation. Currently it's pitched as Sebastian failing some kind of test ('to remind you of what you lost, because you failed to see'), but the Godmother is the one helping maintain the level of 'beauty' expected in the town with surgery, etc. So why is she trying to make some point about Sebastian not being able to see through Cinderella's new look?
Would be stronger with a rewrite where the Godmother is more like a puppetmaster of the whole town, happy to finally have Cinderella come to her side? (She doesn't seem to know who Cinderella is as it stands? Despite the whole town singing a song about how much everyone hates her...) Then she'd have more of a reason to give the makeover than just for a necklace she clearly cares nothing about. A significant rewrite obviously isn't going to happen, but even a few minor tweaks would help establish the Godmother character a lot more.
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Post by FairyGodmother on Jul 14, 2021 15:12:36 GMT
In an interview, Emerald Fennell described her as "...a sort of terrifying, megalomaniacal plastic surgeon cum couturier who has made everyone in that town look the way they look," and it sounds like that's got a bit lost. I'd have written it as a refund — that she was acknowledging that Cinderella didn't need the make-over, and actually people don't all have to look the same. She could even be upset about it — feel like she's losing her purpose (reprise of Ego Has A Price altered to suit her). Then the townspeople rally around and you could show her with a queue of people outside her salon and they all come out with different hair and styles rather than being identikit for the finale. Admittedly, that doesn't explain why she wanted the necklace in the first place, but do megalomaniacal antagonists have to make sense?  |
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Post by max on Jul 14, 2021 19:21:47 GMT
It would be hard to beat the moment when Beverley Knight took an intake of breath before THAT big note in 'And I Will Always Love You' (The Bodyguard musical):
Lairy shout from the Dress Circle:
"Go for it Bev!"
[True? - not sure, but I think I read it on this board].
I've kept us off topic, soz. On topic: despite being cut, I still need to understand why Sarah Brightman sings that her bird 'bit' her, do birds bite? I thought they peck!
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Post by max on Jul 14, 2021 19:31:37 GMT
Wondering about the band size/orchestrations.
Could this show have been an actor-musician show?
Maybe the natural warmth that usually comes from performers playing on stage would be wrong for the frosty uptight people of Belleville.
It does surprise me that as architecture - and particularly a love of church architecture - is almost on par with ALW's love of music/theatre, the show begins as it does. You'd think he'd be a church bell aficionado and (at the least) would start the show with real chimes. First impressions count, and starting so synthetic is sending what message/image of the show? The pealing bells in The Beautiful Game and The Woman In White were much more believable (real instruments?)
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Post by adeliciaboy on Jul 14, 2021 19:54:09 GMT
It’s now week two of previews and the Sebastian understudy appears to be still doing the role. Has anyone considered the possibility that the creative team might be planning to make the understudy the permanent replacement for Turco, who sounded like his acting chops were lacking on the concept recording. A stronger performer in that key role might help the show’s prospects. I am writing from the U.S. and have not seen the show. So I’m counting on the feedback from what are obviously some very savvy observers writing reports on this site. Opening night is now less than a week away.
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Post by vabbian on Jul 14, 2021 20:31:47 GMT
It’s now week two of previews and the Sebastian understudy appears to be still doing the role. Has anyone considered the possibility that the creative team might be planning to make the understudy the permanent replacement for Turco, who sounded like his acting chops were lacking on the concept recording. A stronger performer in that key role might help the show’s prospects. I am writing from the U.S. and have not seen the show. So I’m counting on the feedback from what are obviously some very savvy observers writing reports on this site. Opening night is now less than a week away. I have seen both performers in the show. Michael is lovely, but his voice is Premier Inn and Ivano's voice is The Ritz. It's night and day, for me anyway. I think they said in a broadcast before the show Ivano is having surgery |
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Post by vabbian on Jul 14, 2021 20:33:51 GMT
It’s now week two of previews and the Sebastian understudy appears to be still doing the role. Has anyone considered the possibility that the creative team might be planning to make the understudy the permanent replacement for Turco, who sounded like his acting chops were lacking on the concept recording. A stronger performer in that key role might help the show’s prospects. I am writing from the U.S. and have not seen the show. So I’m counting on the feedback from what are obviously some very savvy observers writing reports on this site. Opening night is now less than a week away. I have seen both performers in the show. Michael is lovely, but his voice is Premier Inn and Ivano's voice is The Ritz. It's night and day, for me anyway. I think they said in a broadcast before the show Ivano is having surgery Also I don't think the show demands much of Sebastian acting wise. it's all about chemistry and the voice, and I think Ivano has that moreso than Michael |
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Post by max on Jul 14, 2021 20:45:35 GMT
Thanks Kit66. I was wondering if they could have made this more a celebration of music - extending the band within the performing company at points relevant to the story: like church bells, town crier bells, on stage actor-trumpeter for fanfares etc. |
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Post by fiyerorocher on Jul 14, 2021 21:10:52 GMT
It’s now week two of previews and the Sebastian understudy appears to be still doing the role. Has anyone considered the possibility that the creative team might be planning to make the understudy the permanent replacement for Turco, who sounded like his acting chops were lacking on the concept recording. A stronger performer in that key role might help the show’s prospects. I am writing from the U.S. and have not seen the show. So I’m counting on the feedback from what are obviously some very savvy observers writing reports on this site. Opening night is now less than a week away. I have seen both performers in the show. Michael is lovely, but his voice is Premier Inn and Ivano's voice is The Ritz. It's night and day, for me anyway. I think they said in a broadcast before the show Ivano is having surgery He was back in the theatre today on Instagram, so might be on stage again tomorrow! At the very least he appears to be in one piece :') |
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Post by FairyGodmother on Jul 14, 2021 21:10:59 GMT
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Post by fiyerorocher on Jul 14, 2021 21:11:10 GMT
It’s now week two of previews and the Sebastian understudy appears to be still doing the role. Has anyone considered the possibility that the creative team might be planning to make the understudy the permanent replacement for Turco, who sounded like his acting chops were lacking on the concept recording. A stronger performer in that key role might help the show’s prospects. I am writing from the U.S. and have not seen the show. So I’m counting on the feedback from what are obviously some very savvy observers writing reports on this site. Opening night is now less than a week away. I have seen both performers in the show. Michael is lovely, but his voice is Premier Inn and Ivano's voice is The Ritz. It's night and day, for me anyway. I think they said in a broadcast before the show Ivano is having surgery He was back in the theatre today on Instagram, so might be on stage again tomorrow! At the very least he appears to be in one piece :') |
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