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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 16:35:33 GMT
I guess it would be interesting to hear how the writers and director see the Ogie & Dawn relationship, bearing in mind that they're all women. Is 'Waitress' running a Q&A session anytime soon?
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Post by 49thand8th on Feb 13, 2019 16:37:53 GMT
I've never seen it so I can't judge that show. But this kind of messed up thing, we see happen in TV, film and theatre. But I just think, in 2019 (or 2016 when this show went on Broadway), its just so insane to me it was chosen to not handle it with anything other than humour it seems. And again, in 2019, it wasn't reworked or anything. It's such a negative thing too to have the two other women push her into going along with her stalker. It's so wrong. That’s fair enough but then you need to make that criticism of all shows and not just Waitress. Such as the example I gave above about Come From Away. ...no, you don't need to be an encyclopedia on the genre to comment on one thing. Do you only complain about food in a restaurant if you've eaten at every restaurant? |
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Post by Rukaya on Feb 13, 2019 16:43:24 GMT
Ok so I've just started watching Crazy Ex Girlfriend (literally only the first few episodes so can only go off what I've seen so far) but how is what Rebecca does here any different than Ogie? No one's been saying anything about CxG here (I don't watch it either, but I'm familiar with the premise). But its absence from the discussion also doesn't nullify criticism of Ogie/Dawn's storyline in Waitress any. Also considering the arcs in CxG I wouldn't think you can dead compare the two of them, you'll see as you watch it! |
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Feb 13, 2019 16:43:35 GMT
Ok so I've just started watching Crazy Ex Girlfriend (literally only the first few episodes so can only go off what I've seen so far) but how is what Rebecca does here any different than Ogie? She follows her crush across the country and starts turning up at random places where he's going to be even though he's clearly in a relationship. As you continue things will become clearer but even from the start I don't think the show particularly treats Rebecca's actions as anything other than wrong and creepy. |
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Post by stuartmcd on Feb 13, 2019 16:46:09 GMT
Ok so I've just started watching Crazy Ex Girlfriend (literally only the first few episodes so can only go off what I've seen so far) but how is what Rebecca does here any different than Ogie? She follows her crush across the country and starts turning up at random places where he's going to be even though he's clearly in a relationship. As you continue things will become clearer but even from the start I don't think the show particularly treats Rebecca's actions as anything other than wrong and creepy. Yet it is still used as humour and to make us laugh. It is established as creepy but used to entertain us. |
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Post by stuartmcd on Feb 13, 2019 16:48:03 GMT
That’s fair enough but then you need to make that criticism of all shows and not just Waitress. Such as the example I gave above about Come From Away. ...no, you don't need to be an encyclopedia on the genre to comment on one thing. Do you only complain about food in a restaurant if you've eaten at every restaurant? Fair point. I just think with CFA being another big show opening recently we can’t sit here judging Waitress without also bringing that into the conversation to show that this isn’t a problem just for this show. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 16:50:54 GMT
Just remember to be careful about spoilers, especially since we're discussing other shows now.
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Post by eatbigsea on Feb 13, 2019 16:51:31 GMT
The same has to be said of a number of musicals though. I loved Come From Away a lot more than I did Waitress but there’s a line in CFA that makes me way more uncomfortable than I ever was in Waitress. The English guy mentions the fact that it was probably the alcohol talking when Dianne says they should get married. So he goes to buy more alcohol to get her more drunk promoting the use of alcohol to get a woman to like you. {Spoiler - click to view}
But at no point in Come From Away does Diane exhibit anything other than romantic interest in Nick. Yes, it was a bit creepy that he wanted to get her more drunk, thinking that was what was making her like him, but I don't think the two situations are comparable.
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Post by danb on Feb 13, 2019 16:52:10 GMT
I guess it would be interesting to hear how the writers and director see the Ogie & Dawn relationship, bearing in mind that they're all women. Is 'Waitress' running a Q&A session anytime soon? My thoughts entirely Ryan. It’s all well and good getting disproportionately outraged on other peoples behalf, but the show I watched on Saturday was a shallow rom com set in a backwards backwood of the USA. It was hardly a documentary and related to absolutely nobody I knew’s life. I found the Earl storyline far more powerful and well played. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 16:53:09 GMT
Also not forgetting of course that there is a song called You're Never Getting Rid of Me, which after a request to never see him again, a reminder of that request and a request to leave, includes lyrics like "I will never let you let me leave I promise I'm not lying", "I'm not going, If it seems like I did I'm probably waiting outside", "Wherever you go, I won't be far to follow", "you're never, ever, ever getting rid of me, you can try" and "Show you I'm not moving" to name a few. Shall we call the cops now or wait to see her dead in a ditch on the side of the road?
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Post by 49thand8th on Feb 13, 2019 17:01:31 GMT
I guess it would be interesting to hear how the writers and director see the Ogie & Dawn relationship, bearing in mind that they're all women. Is 'Waitress' running a Q&A session anytime soon? My thoughts entirely Ryan. It’s all well and good getting disproportionately outraged on other peoples behalf, For what it's worth, I was angry on my own behalf... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 17:31:27 GMT
she explicitly and unambiguously asks him to leave the diner, so he replies to that by bursting into a song about how he loves her (after a five minute date) Sounds like fairly standard musical theatre?! I jest of course. Stalking = bad. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 19:16:33 GMT
So on coming home and reading through this lot these are my thoughts (not suggesting anyone care) 1. Generally we can agree that stalking is a bad thing, and that in no way is this an example to be held up no matter if you're, to quote Karen Walker 'Gay, Straight, Bi, Thai' 2. The Ogie storyline can certainly be read as a creepy stalker story. I can also see how you might have a less strong reaction and see it all as an awkward idiot, which is no doubt how the writers/producers intend it, BUT on that note if someone says they find it creepy accept that people find it creepy. 3. It's possible to find it creepy, acknowledge that and still very much enjoy Waitress as a whole and that doesn't make you a terrible stalker-supporting human. But most importantly, don't stalk people/behave like that, and don't tell people of any gender/sexuality how they should/shouldn't feel about a thing. Oh and for what it's worth re: Come From Away (spoiler tags for, well spoilers) {Spoiler - click to view}
That is played out as two slightly awkward people who BOTH get drunk at different points and feel more free expressing their emotions. Also there's no insinuation they did anything more than kiss a fish and get royally pissed. Of course the fish didn't consent but I assume it was dead. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 19:52:43 GMT
So on coming home and reading through this lot these are my thoughts (not suggesting anyone care) 1. Generally we can agree that stalking is a bad thing, and that in no way is this an example to be held up no matter if you're, to quote Karen Walker 'Gay, Straight, Bi, Thai' 2. The Ogie storyline can certainly be read as a creepy stalker story. I can also see how you might have a less strong reaction and see it all as an awkward idiot, which is no doubt how the writers/producers intend it, BUT on that note if someone says they find it creepy accept that people find it creepy. 3. It's possible to find it creepy, acknowledge that and still very much enjoy Waitress as a whole and that doesn't make you a terrible stalker-supporting human. But most importantly, don't stalk people/behave like that, and don't tell people of any gender/sexuality how they should/shouldn't feel about a thing. Oh and for what it's worth re: Come From Away (spoiler tags for, well spoilers) {Spoiler - click to view}
That is played out as two slightly awkward people who BOTH get drunk at different points and feel more free expressing their emotions. Also there's no insinuation they did anything more than kiss a fish and get royally pissed. Of course the fish didn't consent but I assume it was dead. Just when I find myself scrambling around on the floor for the right words to respond with, you always seem to have my exact thoughts already covered. Let us not forget that one of the most successful musicals in the history of theatre is about an unhealthy relationship between a murderous loner living in a flooded basement (ooo-er Missus!) and a naive dancing girl - in a nutshell, of course. In comparison to that, Dawn and Ogie’s relationship is extremely tame. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 20:19:32 GMT
Just when I find myself scrambling around on the floor for the right words to respond with, you always seem to have my exact thoughts already covered. Let us not forget that one of the most successful musicals in the history of theatre is about an unhealthy relationship between a murderous loner living in a flooded basement (ooo-er Missus!) and a naive dancing girl - in a nutshell, of course. In comparison to that, Dawn and Ogie’s relationship is extremely tame. Oh thanks! I mean in part they are Karen Walker's words haha! But yes, I agree there are far, far worse examples in musical theatre (and elsewhere as noted) I haven't ever seen the film, but given the nature of Jenna's relationship, it's a shame they didn't choose to re-write drastically and explore the darker side of the romantic relationships more (my main problems with Waitress are all book related and mainly that I'd have liked those darker elements explored a bit more). Still part of being a 'grown up' engaging with culture is being able to decide if you can still love a thing and engage with its problematic elements. And I agree that if I can still warble along with Phantom happily, then I shouldn't judge myself for also loving Waitress despite these issues (but totally respect people who don't/can't like either) |
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Post by danb on Feb 13, 2019 21:02:45 GMT
Also not forgetting of course that there is a song called You're Never Getting Rid of Me, which after a request to never see him again, a reminder of that request and a request to leave, includes lyrics like "I will never let you let me leave I promise I'm not lying", "I'm not going, If it seems like I did I'm probably waiting outside", "Wherever you go, I won't be far to follow", "you're never, ever, ever getting rid of me, you can try" and "Show you I'm not moving" to name a few. Shall we call the cops now or wait to see her dead in a ditch on the side of the road? Yes thank you DJ. I’ve seen the show, I just have a different opinion from you. I realise that you struggle with stuff like that. Maybe don’t go again. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 21:10:24 GMT
Also not forgetting of course that there is a song called You're Never Getting Rid of Me, which after a request to never see him again, a reminder of that request and a request to leave, includes lyrics like "I will never let you let me leave I promise I'm not lying", "I'm not going, If it seems like I did I'm probably waiting outside", "Wherever you go, I won't be far to follow", "you're never, ever, ever getting rid of me, you can try" and "Show you I'm not moving" to name a few. Shall we call the cops now or wait to see her dead in a ditch on the side of the road? Yes thank you DJ. I’ve seen the show, I just have a different opinion from you. I realise that you struggle with stuff like that. Maybe don’t go again. There's no reason to get snappy about it. That comment wasn't even aimed at you, it was a general comment because the lyrics of that song hadn't been mentioned on this thread. If it was aimed at you solely, I would have quoted you. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 21:24:13 GMT
There's no reason to get snappy about it. That comment wasn't even aimed at you, it was a general comment because the lyrics of that song hadn't been mentioned on this thread. If it was aimed at you solely, I would have quoted you. I’m not really bothered who it is aimed at. I’m just fed up of your latest crusade to destroy a new musical for a bit of attention. Did I say I hated the musical? No. Did I say I hated the cast? No. Did I say I hated the music? No. Did I say at any point that I hated this show being on the West End? No. The only thing I did, in hindsight, was comment on the Come From Away board saying that show was better. I maybe shouldn't of done that, but at no point have I said this is a bad show. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 21:31:23 GMT
There's no reason to get snappy about it. That comment wasn't even aimed at you, it was a general comment because the lyrics of that song hadn't been mentioned on this thread. If it was aimed at you solely, I would have quoted you. I’m not really bothered who it is aimed at. I’m just fed up of your latest crusade to destroy a new musical for a bit of attention. I think that's a little unfair. Dan was actually rather complimentary about lots of parts of the show but there was one part that stuck out for him and it clearly struck a chord with other people too. I really don't think he's on any kind of "crusade" at all to be fair. In my experience Dan is someone who, more often than not, tends to embrace musicals new and old rather fervently. In fact, he'll often love any old bit of rubbish and there are box offices all over London's glitzy West End who are probably sick to the sight of him. If they gave out loyalty cards, he'd have a wallet stuffed full of them. |
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Post by Being Alive on Feb 13, 2019 21:32:03 GMT
For what it’s worth, danieljohnson14 has a point (as has already been pointed out by others). And I don’t see this as a crusade to trash a new musical? I hate this show way more than he does from what I can gather, and have said so, but didnt really get picked up on it. So, let’s be less harsh to each other, please? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 21:34:44 GMT
He gave the show 3 stars... He's just discussing a certain aspect of the show, cause this is, you know, a discussion thread.
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Post by danb on Feb 13, 2019 21:42:13 GMT
He gave the show 3 stars... He's just discussing a certain aspect of the show, cause this is, you know, a discussion thread. He isn’t discussing it. He is overwhelmingly stating his opinion over and over like a child does. It’s fine. I don’t need the approval. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 21:44:45 GMT
He gave the show 3 stars... He's just discussing a certain aspect of the show, cause this is, you know, a discussion thread. He isn’t discussing it. He is overwhelmingly stating his opinion over and over like a child does. It’s fine. I don’t need the approval. Because this is an important issue in today's society and should be discussed. If I'm passionate about an issue like this, no one has a right to tell me I'm wrong to feel that or to stop voicing an opinion on a DISCUSSION board? And there are plenty on here who were happily discussing these issues. It's not a cut and dry "it's messed up" or its not kinda thing, it's OK to have a back and fourth dialogue, that's fine. But no one is making any of this discussion personal except for you. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 21:52:58 GMT
For what it’s worth, danieljohnson14 has a point (as has already been pointed out by others). And I don’t see this as a crusade to trash a new musical? I hate this show way more than he does from what I can gather, and have said so, but didnt really get picked up on it. So, let’s be less harsh to each other, please? In fairness to everyone you’ve trashed this show and KMP to me more than anyone and I still love you 😂😂😂 |
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Post by Being Alive on Feb 13, 2019 21:53:51 GMT
For what it’s worth, danieljohnson14 has a point (as has already been pointed out by others). And I don’t see this as a crusade to trash a new musical? I hate this show way more than he does from what I can gather, and have said so, but didnt really get picked up on it. So, let’s be less harsh to each other, please? In fairness to everyone you’ve trashed this show and KMP to me more than anyone and I still love you 😂😂😂 LITERALLY I’m a waaay bigger problem than Dan when it comes to this show! |
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