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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 23, 2021 22:02:50 GMT
Cis is "not trans"... or living as the same gender as the sex you were assigned at birth
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Post by inthenose on Apr 23, 2021 22:03:37 GMT
Cis is "not trans"... or living as the same gender as the sex you were assigned at birth Thanks. |
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Post by Phantom of London on Apr 24, 2021 1:22:40 GMT
Douglas Hodge (straight), John Barrowman (Gay), Roger Allam (straight) and Graham Norton (Gay).
I saw all 4 play Albin in the Menier Chocolate Factory production of La Cage Aux Folles. I know what 2 I would pay to see again.
Conversely when I saw Billie Porter who is Gay and BAME in Kinky Boots on Broadway, I was all over social media saying that “Billie needs to reprise his role in the West End,” he was excellent, but who knew we had the talent who is Matt Henry over here, who is BAME and could be Gay, I don’t know and I don’t particularly care, the man was an utter sensation and was breathtaking in the role. You could argue that a Trans actor should’ve been fast tracked to play the role of Lola/Simon.
Tony Sheldon was a tour de force when he originated the role of Bernadette in Priscilla, he was possible the one good thing in Priscilla.
Breaking News: When I see a performer I want to see the best possible for that role.
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Post by southstreet on Apr 24, 2021 9:22:24 GMT
]Conversely when I saw Billie Porter who is Gay and BAME in Kinky Boots on Broadway, I was all over social media saying that “Billie needs to reprise his role in the West End,” he was excellent, but who knew we had the talent who is Matt Henry over here, who is BAME and could be Gay, I don’t know and I don’t particularly care, the man was an utter sensation and was breathtaking in the role. You could argue that a Trans actor should’ve been fast tracked to play the role of Lola/Simon. Just FYI, Lola is a drag queen, not a trans woman!!! Again, trans women aren’t just guys who like to wear women’s clothing and/or shoes!!!!! |
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Post by robertb213 on Apr 24, 2021 10:02:51 GMT
Douglas Hodge (straight), John Barrowman (Gay), Roger Allam (straight) and Graham Norton (Gay). I saw all 4 play Albin in the Menier Chocolate Factory production of La Cage Aux Folles. I know what 2 I would pay to see again. Conversely when I saw Billie Porter who is Gay and BAME in Kinky Boots on Broadway, I was all over social media saying that “Billie needs to reprise his role in the West End,” he was excellent, but who knew we had the talent who is Matt Henry over here, who is BAME and could be Gay, I don’t know and I don’t particularly care, the man was an utter sensation and was breathtaking in the role. You could argue that a Trans actor should’ve been fast tracked to play the role of Lola/Simon. Tony Sheldon was a tour de force when he originated the role of Bernadette in Priscilla, he was possible the one good thing in Priscilla. Breaking News: When I see a performer I want to see the best possible for that role. Matt Henry is straight I believe. Such a great performance. |
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Post by stagebyte on Apr 24, 2021 12:33:04 GMT
Douglas Hodge (straight), John Barrowman (Gay), Roger Allam (straight) and Graham Norton (Gay). I saw all 4 play Albin in the Menier Chocolate Factory production of La Cage Aux Folles. I know what 2 I would pay to see again. Conversely when I saw Billie Porter who is Gay and BAME in Kinky Boots on Broadway, I was all over social media saying that “Billie needs to reprise his role in the West End,” he was excellent, but who knew we had the talent who is Matt Henry over here, who is BAME and could be Gay, I don’t know and I don’t particularly care, the man was an utter sensation and was breathtaking in the role. You could argue that a Trans actor should’ve been fast tracked to play the role of Lola/Simon. Tony Sheldon was a tour de force when he originated the role of Bernadette in Priscilla, he was possible the one good thing in Priscilla. Breaking News: When I see a performer I want to see the best possible for that role. Matt Henry is straight I believe. Such a great performance. Agree. Matt was brilliant. And when I went to see it the audience would’ve had no way of knowing whether he was gay or not. And why would we? I have no interest in his sexuality. I have no interest in talking about mine so why should we dwell on actors? They are paid to portray a role. It’s a job not a crusade. Sexuality/gender has somehow become everyone’s business whereas it’s really the least interesting aspect of a person. I’m interested in an actor and their skill as an actor without needing to know about their private life. The casting in Kinky is open to all male identifying actors including trans, gay, straight and all who identify other ways (it’s still illegal in this country to ask anyone about sexuality or gender when recruiting for jobs and is the same for casting) The casting process is in place to find the top actor for the job so please let the casting director do their job. The day when a casting notice says you CAN’T have a gay, straight, trans actor in a show is the time to campaign |
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Post by sph on Apr 24, 2021 12:58:59 GMT
The thing is, whilst I do believe in casting as authentically as possible, it isn't ALWAYS possible. When you search for a cast member in any minority group, you're searching in a very small pool and may not find exactly what you want who also has the experience, name recognition, physical "look" (the physical look of a character is about more than just being the right race/gender don't @ me) etc.
There is also an element of fluidity to gender and sexuality which you don't have with race for example. A twenty year old who identifies as cis or straight might discover that they are gay or trans by the time they reach thirty. A good example is The Inheritance in the West End, around which there were a few discontented murmurs that the three young leads were all straight. Well... last year one of them came out as queer on twitter, so... how do you pin people down as to their identity at the time of casting when they may not know yet themselves.
And remember, being trans for many includes a period of transitioning. I watched the excellent Amazon series Transparent where the lead was played by (an unfortunately now disgraced) Jeffrey Tambor, a cis-gender male. As the series begins, Tambor's character is only just beginning to acknowledge she is trans, quite late in life, and up until that point has been living as a man with a wife and children and career, as a man. Tambor had to play both the "man" she was in her former years AND the woman she came to realise she was. Many scenes were flashbacks to earlier events in the character's life.
I read a comment, possibly on twitter, about the casting of Nessarose in Wicked recently, questioning why a disabled actress who genuinely is in a wheelchair is never cast in the role? A perfectly sensible question, until you remember that Elphaba "heals" her in Act 2 and she stands up and walks. So how does that factor into the current casting minefield?
It is a complicated world, and the more we think about it, the more complicated it becomes. Until you go outside the M25 that is.
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Post by Phantom of London on Apr 24, 2021 13:00:59 GMT
Douglas Hodge (straight), John Barrowman (Gay), Roger Allam (straight) and Graham Norton (Gay). I saw all 4 play Albin in the Menier Chocolate Factory production of La Cage Aux Folles. I know what 2 I would pay to see again. Conversely when I saw Billie Porter who is Gay and BAME in Kinky Boots on Broadway, I was all over social media saying that “Billie needs to reprise his role in the West End,” he was excellent, but who knew we had the talent who is Matt Henry over here, who is BAME and could be Gay, I don’t know and I don’t particularly care, the man was an utter sensation and was breathtaking in the role. You could argue that a Trans actor should’ve been fast tracked to play the role of Lola/Simon. Tony Sheldon was a tour de force when he originated the role of Bernadette in Priscilla, he was possible the one good thing in Priscilla. Breaking News: When I see a performer I want to see the best possible for that role. Matt Henry is straight I believe. Such a great performance. There you go I had no clue that Matt was straight, but if you asked me to hedge my bets I would have said he was gay, that is testimony to how great he was on stage and how well he played Lola. In a nutshell he was superb and one of the best performances I have seen on stage in musical theatre. |
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Post by hannechalk on Apr 24, 2021 13:32:30 GMT
When I go to the theatre, I'm not interested in the actors' personal lives, sexual orientation, political affiliation etc.
I want to see the best possible actor for each role.
Yeah,sure, sometimes I choose s show because a certain actor is in it, and it's all built around this actor. And I've come away somewhat disappointed.
Sometimes the actors are right, but that particular production let's them down (Flashdance - Selladoor Productions anyone?).
But overall I want to see the best actor in a role, even if their real life doesn't represent the character they're playing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 13:49:19 GMT
I don’t think it’s a question of whether or not the audience are happy with who is on stage. In this instance and others like it, it is often problematic because trans performers are pigeon holed by casting directors for one reason or another. Therefore resulting in them being overlooked because they don’t vocally or aesthetically fit with the vision for the character.
So when the very few trans roles are up for grabs and trans performers are still sidelined, it makes it frustrating for an actor who just wants to showcase their skills but can’t catch that opportunity. I’m not suggesting this is the only problem, but it certainly is one of them.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 24, 2021 14:05:29 GMT
It is the vocal side of things that will remain a significant barrier for many.
The music written for a given character is not a matter of 'vision' it is more integral to the creation of the piece than that.
Many scores can be adapted to suit individual voices but that doesn't apply to all shows.
Harmonies and the overall shaping of the keys within a score do matter to the music of many shows.
Transposition will not always be possible with a significant percentage of existing scores.
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Post by stagebyte on Apr 24, 2021 14:13:36 GMT
I don’t think it’s a question of whether or not the audience are happy with who is on stage. In this instance and others like it, it is often problematic because trans performers are pigeon holed by casting directors for one reason or another. Therefore resulting in them being overlooked because they don’t vocally or aesthetically fit with the vision for the character. So when the very few trans roles are up for grabs and trans performers are still sidelined, it makes it frustrating for an actor who just wants to showcase their skills but can’t catch that opportunity. I’m not suggesting this is the only problem, but it certainly is one of them. Even if the trans actor is auditioning for a trans role it doesn’t necessarily mean the actor is right for the role. And why only go for roles where the role is written as trans. Surely equality will only come when trans actors can audition for any role? I think the issue here is hopes were raised when it was made explicitly clear on open casting that trans actors were welcome to audition. No one ever said they couldn’t in the first place? Now some are annoyed and frustrated that one of the SEVEN who did were not suitable. I mean what are the chances? In a minuscule minority group the odds were in favour of this happening. I don’t think it was performative action - they just didn’t find a suitable actor?. Casting directors are moving in the right direction. I know it’s not quick enough for some but unless the amount of people transitioning IN THE RIGHT AGE RANGE for this role suddenly runs into the hundreds (obviously allowing for the fact they have acting and singing ability) allowing for a breadth of talent to compete then campaigners are going to be disappointed. If you start down this road casting only trans actors for Bernadette it becomes a precedent. Should this person play Bernadette forever in subsequent productions? Is there a never ending pool of fifty something trans actors ready to take her place? I think not. Asking for the cancellation of a feel good musical which does much to promote tolerance and love and shine a spotlight on ignorance is not the answer if they can’t cast Bernadette trans. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 14:56:02 GMT
It is the vocal side of things that will remain a significant barrier for many. The music written for a given character is not a matter of 'vision' it is more integral to the creation of the piece than that. Many scores can be adapted to suit individual voices but that doesn't apply to all shows. Harmonies and the overall shaping of the keys within a score do matter to the music of many shows. Transposition will not always be possible with a significant percentage of existing scores. I’m sure I don’t know as much about the nitty gritty of a musical’s makeup than yourself, and as such I consider myself very much schooled after your response. As you say, it is possible to adapt a character from its original writing in many shows without creating a huge detriment otherwise we wouldn’t see roles such as Bobby in Company flipped to a different gender and consequently, different vocal style. It also doesn’t account for the plays, films and dramas either. In my original post I was trying to illustrate a point that it could be more difficult for a performer who is trans to break into the industry and be in receipt of regular work than their cisgendered counterparts. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 24, 2021 15:07:04 GMT
Personally the swapping of Company didn't work for me. I only heard the audio so can't say how it worked live.
But Being Alive didn't sit right in the voice for me and Drive A Person Crazy was weaker for being a male trio.
Very much a personal reaction I acknowledge.
There are far fewer (if any) reasons for trans performers to be denied roles in non singing productions. The same is probably true for ensemble roles.
But lead/supporting roles in existing musicals will be harder challenges to overcome.
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Post by princeton on Apr 24, 2021 15:14:51 GMT
It's a gnarly one this - isn't it? (and apologies for the long post).
On one hand - I guess that the main issues with Priscilla in particular is that the part was created for and always been played by a male actor - indeed I believe on the licensing site it's listed as a male part. This current production started almost two years ago - and the cast may have been contracted for a run of the show - which is still ongoing. It could also be argued that casting a twenty-something trans woman to understudy the part of Bernadette, a middle-aged widow, is also wrong - though obviously for different reasons.
On the other hand - two things from the original open letter stood out to me: Firstly the powerful point that: "The casting of cisgender people, often cis men as trans women, is an insensitive choice that, even without intention to, gives further credit to harmful allegations, and reinforces the ideology that trans women are simply "men in dresses".
Secondly, the original open letter also states that "There are only four (widely recognised) major Broadway musicals with trans roles explicitly referenced in their libretto". Given the John Cameron Mitchell has explicitly stated that Hedwig is not a trans character, I can only think of Priscilla and Bring It On which have trans roles referenced (though have never been played by trans actors as far as I know) Whatever - I think it can be agreed that that's not a huge amount from the entire musical theatre catalogue.
Since the original production of Priscilla - and even in the two years since this tour began - trans visibility has become much greater as has the awareness of the issues which trans men and women face in their day-to-day lives. I've seen Priscilla many times, with some great male actors giving great performances, and not really given it a thought. However, now seems to be the time to give it a thought - or at least have a conversation which acknowledges that it might not be right. I have no idea what it is to be trans (though I've witnessed overt transphobia whilst in a supermarket queue "look there's a bloke in a dress") but I think it's incumbent on us all to listen to those who are - and not dismiss criticism as over-reaction.
It's too pat to simply say the best person should get the role - and roles should be open to anyone. They simply aren't - particularly with regard to gender. To take Kinky, which was cited earlier in this thread as anyone can be considered for a part, why haven't Beverly Knight or Alexandra Burke played Lola? Whilst I know this is a seeming ludicrous suggestion and I'm not seriously suggesting that they should - it's because they are women and it's a male character, albeit one who spends quite a lot of time in a dress. Yet the character of Bernadette is a woman - but in that case the general consensus seems to be that it's fine to cast a man in the part. Last year theatrical twitter was full of the phrase "transwomen are women" - should that be caveated with - except in a musical?
I don't know enough about how many trans actors (and I use that word in a non-gendered way) there are in the UK - and in particular how many are of the right age, or experience, to play Bernadette. Nor do I know how wide the search was during the initial casting, or whether there have been any trans people involved during the rehearsal stage. I certainly I don't think the cast of this tour should be vilified for auditioning and getting jobs in good faith, nor forced to stand aside. But hopefully the discussions around this production will help further overall understanding - a thoughtful item in the programme might be a good starting point.
Drama, be that on stage or on screen, has the ability to be really educational and the more mainstream, such as a jukebox musical, the wider the reach. But it can equally miseducate. Surely if one person comes out of Priscilla and says "so transgender means a man in a dress" - that's one person too many. So whatever can be done to mitigate that misunderstanding, whilst not going into full cancel culture mode (which surely helps no-one) should be put in place.
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Post by sph on Apr 24, 2021 15:31:33 GMT
Personally the swapping of Company didn't work for me. I only heard the audio so can't say how it worked live. But Being Alive didn't sit right in the voice for me and Drive A Person Crazy was weaker for being a male trio. Very much a personal reaction I acknowledge. There are far fewer (if any) reasons for trans performers to be denied roles in non singing productions. The same is probably true for ensemble roles. But lead/supporting roles in existing musicals will be harder challenges to overcome. Company was an odd one because I felt like I was watching something that was obviously groundbreaking at the time of its original production, but loses its edge in the present day. Changing the genders of a few characters didn't do as much to update it as they thought it would imo. There were a few fun moments, and I'm sure there are male performers who would enjoy getting to perform "not getting married" and female performers who are happy to get to sing "Being Alive" in a legitimate musical, but aside from that it fell a bit flat for me. I do believe that scores can be adapted to the performer though sometimes, it used to happen a lot more frequently. The style of musicals written today just doesn't lend itself to the practise as well. |
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Post by stagebyte on Apr 24, 2021 18:22:14 GMT
Personally the swapping of Company didn't work for me. I only heard the audio so can't say how it worked live. But Being Alive didn't sit right in the voice for me and Drive A Person Crazy was weaker for being a male trio. Very much a personal reaction I acknowledge. There are far fewer (if any) reasons for trans performers to be denied roles in non singing productions. The same is probably true for ensemble roles. But lead/supporting roles in existing musicals will be harder challenges to overcome. Company was an odd one because I felt like I was watching something that was obviously groundbreaking at the time of its original production, but loses its edge in the present day. Changing the genders of a few characters didn't do as much to update it as they thought it would imo. There were a few fun moments, and I'm sure there are male performers who would enjoy getting to perform "not getting married" and female performers who are happy to get to sing "Being Alive" in a legitimate musical, but aside from that it fell a bit flat for me. I do believe that scores can be adapted to the performer though sometimes, it used to happen a lot more frequently. The style of musicals written today just doesn't lend itself to the practise as well. Having never seen Company previously or familiar with the story or previous castings I saw the recentish production - I had nothing to compare it with but it’s obviously one flexible to being cast either way as nothing stood out as unusual or jarred with me. I thought it was a reflection on how society expects women to settle down by a certain age anc the judgement singletons get. Sadly not every show is as flexible but we can just enjoy those for just being shows not political statements... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 18:56:26 GMT
It is the vocal side of things that will remain a significant barrier for many. The music written for a given character is not a matter of 'vision' it is more integral to the creation of the piece than that. Many scores can be adapted to suit individual voices but that doesn't apply to all shows. Harmonies and the overall shaping of the keys within a score do matter to the music of many shows. Transposition will not always be possible with a significant percentage of existing scores. There have been discussions elsewhere about transposing music for trans actors. Someone asked about a leading female role being transposed to a tenor. I had never considered that, but i wonder if a show would actually do that. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 24, 2021 20:17:46 GMT
I suspect they would for a star name but not an unknown...
Just as allowances are made for the vocals of certain leading ladies that are not afforded to the rest of the profession.
Essentially if you are going to sell tickets by being a name, you can set the terms
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Post by stagebyte on Apr 24, 2021 20:31:59 GMT
It is the vocal side of things that will remain a significant barrier for many. The music written for a given character is not a matter of 'vision' it is more integral to the creation of the piece than that. Many scores can be adapted to suit individual voices but that doesn't apply to all shows. Harmonies and the overall shaping of the keys within a score do matter to the music of many shows. Transposition will not always be possible with a significant percentage of existing scores. There have been discussions elsewhere about transposing music for trans actors. Someone asked about a leading female role being transposed to a tenor. I had never considered that, but i wonder if a show would actually do that. At what point does it begin to alter the integrity of the show’s music as it was written though if any show transposes the key for any performer. I mean this generally. Not picking on trans performers. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 24, 2021 20:44:18 GMT
That is a question that rights holders will have to answer in time. Certainly from an amateur perspective, you get the right to perform the show as written. Professional rights do operate differently and it is more common to have music changes for pro shows.
But some rights holders are stricter.thsn others. Some will embrace transposition. Others won't. Just as some demand you use the original choreography and others don't.
It will be a matter of producers negotiating/cutting deals to get what they want (or not)
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Post by Phantom of London on Apr 24, 2021 20:50:47 GMT
The person has to fit in the scope and requirements of the role as well. A trans actor as Jean Valjean clearly wouldn’t work, but if a trans actor auditioned and was the best to audition for the role of Edna Turnblad, then why not?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 20:52:42 GMT
The person has to fit in the scope and requirements of the role as well. A trans actor as Jean Valjean clearly wouldn’t work, but if a trans actor auditioned and was the best to audition for the role of Edna Turnblad, then why not? Why shouldn't a trans man play Valjean if he can sing it and act it? |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 24, 2021 20:55:04 GMT
I suspect the answer to that is that very few trans men will have rock tenor voices with a strong baritone quality. It is not impossible but quite unlikely.
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Post by sph on Apr 24, 2021 21:09:40 GMT
There have been discussions elsewhere about transposing music for trans actors. Someone asked about a leading female role being transposed to a tenor. I had never considered that, but i wonder if a show would actually do that. At what point does it begin to alter the integrity of the show’s music as it was written though if any show transposes the key for any performer. I mean this generally. Not picking on trans performers. I really think it depends on the show. The keys of Gypsy were lowered for Angela Lansbury for example, whereas I can't imagine anyone ever lowering the key of Defying Gravity to suit a performer who couldn't sing it as written. I suppose it comes down to which is more important, the character or the vocals. If people expect a song to be sung a certain way, I expect producers will want to keep it as written. If the songs are less well-known and people are there for the character or actor, they can be more flexible. |
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