Priscilla Queen Of The Desert - UK Tour

[oxfordsimon]

Alongside this, what are drama schools doing to help prepare their trans students for the profession?

What additional training is available to those who transition later in life?

It is not just down to producers/casting directors.

Those responsible for training and professional development also have their roles to play.

[hitmewithurbethshot]

If you can't find a suitable performer the first time you look the answer is to cast your net wider. The Miss Saigon producers flew all over the world to find suitable Asian actresses for Kim, and this was in the 80s. In today's internet age would it have been so hard to ask for submissions from Ireland, mainland Europe, America etc?

[oxfordsimon]

One of the issues the idea of an international search is that you might not get a work permit for them to do a national tour.

[stagebyte]

Apr 22, 2021 20:57:06 GMT fluxcapacitor said:

Apr 22, 2021 18:50:07 GMT mrbarnaby said:

I don’t get what they are supposed to do. They opened the casting up to trans actors- but no one presented themselves for lead roles that they deemed suitable.

Again- are they supposed to cast people just for the sake of it and NOT the best people for the roles just to tick a box?

Cancel the whole show so 100 people have no work?

Would love to know.

Just to use the Dreamgirls comparison again - and I don’t mean this in a heated way at all, just trying to get the counter argument across - but would you feel the same if a white girl was cast as Effie because no black girls who auditioned were deemed suitable? But a talented black girl was given the understudy role and we were told we should celebrate that as a win for diversity and acceptance? There would be outrage (and rightly so)

It’s not exactly the same situation, granted, but this is the attitude which is readily accepted when it comes to trans roles and trans actors.

There are far more black actors in the talent pool than trans actors. It’s not going to happen. The plot of dream girls also wouldn’t make sense with a Caucasian actor playing Effie as it specifically deals with their struggles as a black band in a predominantly white music world with white producers literally stealing their sound? So yes there would be outrage as a) the plot would be rendered non sensical but more importantly they would’ve had no excuse to cast a Caucasian actor as they would’ve been able to cast the role several times over with A game black actresses being left disappointed.

[stagebyte]

Apr 22, 2021 21:55:17 GMT hitmewithurbethshot said:

If you can't find a suitable performer the first time you look the answer is to cast your net wider. The Miss Saigon producers flew all over the world to find suitable Asian actresses for Kim, and this was in the 80s. In today's internet age would it have been so hard to ask for submissions from Ireland, mainland Europe, America etc?

Apr 22, 2021 22:00:40 GMT oxfordsimon said:

One of the issues the idea of an international search is that you might not get a work permit for them to do a national tour.

Miss Saigon was an original cast west end production with a lot of money behind it. This is Priscilla tour number 768 and will probably start in Skegness. I get the sentiment but where’s the money for an international search?

Edit: it starts in Cheltenham but you get the point

[FairyGodmother]

I don't know how I feel about it — the character is a trans woman, so logically casting a trans woman is good.

However, if I were producing it, would I want one of my leads to be an untried find from an open casting call? Probably not.

Putting them in as the understudy, and hoping/planning they can take the role on as the lead in the future definitely sounds a safer bet. If it was somebody like Adèle Anderson then I'd put her in straight away, but it would be based on the fact she's an experienced stage performer, not based on the fact she's trans.

[Phantom of London]

For goodness sake.

If someone who is Trans auditions for a role and they are the best person who auditions, then sure give the Trans person the role.

This is the same as the subsidised theatre, saying they will have a quota for females or BAME writers, which is equally appalling.

Theatre is about seeing the best available, I have no issues if they’re Trans, BAME or Female, as long as they are the best available, but I have problems with quotas.

Nobody should be cast because they’re solely ‘Trans,’ theatre is all about talent and should be judged solely on that alone.

[BurlyBeaR]

Whoever they cast needs to be able to deliver a performance that’s going to help keep the audience interested because this particular production doesn’t have much else going for it.

[mrbarnaby]

Apr 23, 2021 5:57:36 GMT BurlyBeaR said:

Whoever they cast needs to be able to deliver a performance that’s going to help keep the audience interested because this particular production doesn’t have much else going for it.

The idea they plan to bring it into the west end at some point.. hilarious!

[MrBraithwaite]

When I see a show, I want the best possible performance by an actor, I don't go to the stagedoor beforehand and ask, if they are trans or cis or whatever. Asking that as a producer of an actor and making it a condition to get the job is illegal, as it is in all employment situations.

[c4ndyc4ne]

I'm sorry but this is kinda appalling to read: If a member of a community, THIS community, tells you that someone's actions actively worry them, make them feel unsafe and put them in danger, why are so many kneejerk reactions on here sceptical and stuffed with bluster rather than "Oh god, that sounds awful, how can we help?". 

Violence against trans individuals is substantial – that's an objective fact.

This casting move doesn't help – when it could have. 

[southstreet]

I understand that times are changing quickly and it's hard to keep up but doing things like they always used to be done, just because it's easy just is not good enough anymore in this day and age. Yes acting is make believe but representation MATTERS!!! Trans women are not just men dressed in women's clothing.

And someone bringing up Miss Saigon, they STILL cast in the Philippines, US and Japan, etc. to get a lot of the cast because they don't have enough Asian performers in the UK industry at the moment. And that is mainly because for the most part those communities don't see themselves represented on stage and therefore don't tend to consider a career in Musical Theatre. The more they are seen, not just in Miss Saigon but in other casts and in roles where ethnicity doesn't matter, the more people from that community will consider entering the profession as they actually see a chance of getting work. And it's the same for trans performers. It's already hard enough for the few of them around to be cast in generic roles and if they can't even be cast in the roles that represents them, how do they think the trans performer pool is going to increase significantly.

So yes, you might have to pay a bit extra for a visa to get a trans performer in from another country if you can't find someone suitable in the UK and jump through a few more hoops and put in some hard work now if you want to put on Priscilla, but if we don't call people out on this kind of stuff, nothing will ever change for under represented communities, be that in theatre or the world as a whole.

P.S.: Just another very valid point a friend just made... If you're saying Bernadette is a trans woman character and you couldn't find a suitable trans woman for the role, surely you'd cast a cis woman in the role and not a cis man, rather than further perpetuating the whole 'trans women are just men in women's clothing' stigma?

[fluxcapacitor]

Apr 23, 2021 6:48:21 GMT MrBraithwaite said:

When I see a show, I want the best possible performance by an actor, I don't go to the stagedoor beforehand and ask, if they are trans or cis or whatever. Asking that as a producer of an actor and making it a condition to get the job is illegal, as it is in all employment situations.

Fair point, but can I again play devil's advocate and point out that this was very likely the attitude held by many when it came to actors like Olivier donning dark make-up to play Othello?  They wanted to see the best possible performance by an actor and didn't care about his background, right?  That's what an actor does, right?  So there's no problem, right?

We would never accept non black actors playing black roles now, even an actor of Olivier's calibre, but we will accept non trans actors playing trans roles.  What's difference here apart from the obvious visual aspect?  The arguments bot for and against are parallel.

I don't know what the right answer is, or where the "line" is when an actor's experience needs to match with the role they're playing - it's far too big a debate - but I do believe it's a matter which needs to be discussed just like racial depictions needed to be discussed in the past.

Linked to this, my biggest issue here is with the producers being unwilling to engage with the discussion and fanning away the criticism they received (justified, in my opinion) by saying "We believe that inclusivity extends to all members of the company and that all roles are open to everyone."  That's very disingenuous and patronising, because OBVIOUSLY not all roles are suitable for all people and I daresay they wouldn't use that argument in other situations.

[FairyGodmother]

I think oxfordsimon's points are very valid, about the pool of performers you have and their abilities.

I don't know what impact vocal training before your transition will have on your voice — presumably you'll have a good background, technique etc, but if you go from a soprano to a tenor you're going to have to make some adjustments. Obviously for this role it wouldn't be as much of an issue because I presume they'll be casting people who are a bit older, but I wonder whether that would naturally restrict trans actors in their 20s/or those who are transitioning or have only transitioned recently?

[oxfordsimon]

I think achieving better representation for trans actors will be easier for plays, film, TV and radio productions than it will be for musicals and opera.

This is not to say it will be easy. But it will be easier because the vocal demands of a singing role don't have to be taken into account.

Looking at the world of opera briefly, we still see Caucasian singers in non Caucasian roles. Butterfly is frequently sung by a white soprano. Otello is frequently still sung by a white tenor. Monostatos in Die Zauberflote is rarely sung by a singer of colour. We are seeing growing demands for this sort of casting to stop. And the situation is improving. But the demands of certain roles require specific vocal skills and there is a limited number of singers capable of performing them in a major house. The choice to be made is whether to stop performing that sort of repertoire until the number of suitable singers increases, find a different artistic interpretation that does away with the 'traditional' setting/casting demands or accept that you are casting a voice that can sing a role that deserves to be heard. Many in the Opera community say that voice is everything. One area I haven't seem much comment on is whether audio recordings should be subject to the same scrutiny as staged productions. Would it still be OK for a white soprano to include Un Bel Di in her concert repertoire if she stopped performing the role in full productions?

There are a small number of trans opera singers who are working internationally so they are blazing the trail for what will work for them.


As we have seen this week with more details about The Danish Girl musical, new works are being created to give trans performers platforms to tell trans stories. And that, for me, is where the breakthroughs will happen. New pieces will showcase talents and add works to the repertoire that will provide future opportunities for those who follow after.

But there will continue to be roles like Bernadette where there is currently only a very small number of possible viable candidates where producers and audiences will have to make difficult choices. Is it better to let this character live on stage and for their story (and the stories of the other marginalised characters in the piece) to be told with dignity and respect or to effectively ban the piece until casting 'perfection can be achieved?

Acting is about one person taking on the role of portraying another. That is how it works. You don't actually become that other person. You are speaking lines written to create an honest interpretation of them in such a way as that character comes to life for those 2 to 3 hours on stage/screen.

[southstreet]

I am not familiar with the world of Opera (mainly because I can't stand to listen to Sopranos LOL) but if that is still happening a lot there and fully accepted, then that is just as terrible and needs to be called out, as it does in more 'commercial' musical theatre, where you probably have a slightly more diverse audience.

And yes, you're absolutely right, it will be easier in areas where vocal demands are not a factor, but just because it's more difficult in musical theatre or opera doesn't mean that the work doesn't have to be done there, and things can just continue as they have been.

So in my mind, if you can't get a trans performer of a caliber you need for a trans role, look a bit further afield. Or maybe wait a couple of years and nurture the people who's stories you want to tell to be able to tell them themselves. It's important to tell stories with dignity and respect, but it's just as important to cast roles of characters that are supposed to tell these stories with dignity and respect. And just putting a man in a dress cos "that will have to do for now" just isn't good enough. I'm sorry, it just isn't.

[partytentdown]

Genuine question as I don't know the show, and I very much hope this isn't offensive, but are the characters in the show trans? I always (maybe wrongly) assumed they were drag queens.

[southstreet]

Two drag queens and a trans woman. :-)

[oxfordsimon]

Apr 23, 2021 15:06:17 GMT southstreet said:

I am not familiar with the world of Opera (mainly because I can't stand to listen to Sopranos LOL) but if that is still happening a lot there and fully accepted, then that is just as terrible and needs to be called out, as it does in more 'commercial' musical theatre, where you probably have a slightly more diverse audience.

And yes, you're absolutely right, it will be easier in areas where vocal demands are not a factor, but just because it's more difficult in musical theatre or opera doesn't mean that the work doesn't have to be done there, too.

So in my mind, if you can't get a trans performer of a caliber you need for a trans role, look a bit further afield. Or maybe wait a couple of years and nurture the people who's stories you want to tell to be able to tell them themselves. It's important to tell stories with dignity and respect, but it's just as important to cast roles of characters that are supposed to tell these stories with dignity and respect. And just putting a man in a dress cos "that will have to do for now" just isn't good enough. I'm sorry, it just isn't.

I think you are wrong to seek to dismiss those who have already played the role of Bernadette as just having been a man in a dress. They have been professional actors who have worked hard to create an interpretation of a complex character. They have, to my knowledge, never sought to diminish or underplay the trans part of Bernadette. And certainly never to make fun of Bernadette.

You and others disagree with the decision to cast them. But it is wrong to dismiss their performances as just being a man in a dress.

I don't believe that a gay character always has to be played by a gay actor. As a gay man and theatre maker, I don't believe that is always an absolute necessity. I suspect that the overwhelming majority of theatregoers don't care about the sexuality of the actors on stage. They do care about the quality of the performances.

Does having a gay actor play a gay character mean you get greater 'authenticity? Not necessarily. I remember one production I reviewed that featured a gay character and I felt the performance was forced to the point of parody. That actor was gay. Just not right for the role or badly directed.

Yes representation matters. I get that and I work in my own casting to do that but never at the expense of the overall quality/feel of the piece. But I don't set myself quotas or rules.

I want to work with actors who will do the research about the lives of their character. Who will seek to understand the world of the play and how their character fits into that environment. That combined with the work in the rehearsal room will lead to satisfying performances that engage audiences.

I will never cast a gay actor to play a gay character just because they are gay. And should I direct a project involving trans characters, I would adopt the same approach. Casting should never be a tick box exercise. I would work to find the best candidates for the roles and go from there. No-one would automatically be excluded but no-one would automatically be given priority.

Does that make me a bad gay because I am not automatically uplifting trans performers? I don't believe so. Others will have their own opinions. Though I would ask that you think carefully before expressing those opinions.

[southstreet]

I have at no point said anything about the performers who played the part before or dismissed their performances. I also think that Jonathan Pryce is an incredible actor, probably did an incredible job with it at the time but would I want him to play the Engineer again in the next production of Miss Saigon? No, I would most definitely not.

It's not just a tick box exercise, nobody is saying put anyone sub-par on stage, all that is being asked is to not dismiss how very few trans characters there are out there in musicals and to make sure that those go to trans performers until there is a more level playing field. And if that means paying a bit more for a visa for a performer from another country and taking a bit longer to cast it, then that is a small price to pay IMO to make sure the theatre industry goes beyond the performative allyship it has been displaying.

And to also not overlook how harmfully the 'man in a dress' situation (however sensitively played by the actor in question) perpetuates the very stereotype that the trans community has to constantly fight.

[mrbarnaby]

I would argue that a trans actor who isn’t very good playing the role would do more damage to the trans community than a cis man playing it, and bringing out all of the humanity , humour and life etc of the character.

I simply defy anyone to play that role better than Tony Sheldon.

[southstreet]

Apr 23, 2021 16:08:56 GMT mrbarnaby said:

I would argue that a trans actor who isn’t very good playing the role would do more damage to the trans community than a cis man playing it, and bringing out all of the humanity , humour and life etc of the character.

I simply defy anyone to play that role better than Tony Sheldon.

Again, nobody said put anyone bad on stage. But if you're casting for a role that you know you don't have a huge talent pool for at this point, make sure you spent the appropriate amount of time searching for them, not just a quick haphazard casting call at the last minute. They had a whole bloody year where they could have been looking far and wide if they really felt strongly about it. But clearly, they didn't, it was an afterthought, with a nice bit of performative allyship thrown in.

Anyway, I am tired of this discussion, and I am a cis-woman, I don't wanna know how bloody exhausted people in the trans community are about constantly having to fight to have their concerns acknowledged and not dismissed. 

[stagebyte]

Apr 23, 2021 15:44:29 GMT oxfordsimon said:

Apr 23, 2021 15:06:17 GMT southstreet said:

I am not familiar with the world of Opera (mainly because I can't stand to listen to Sopranos LOL) but if that is still happening a lot there and fully accepted, then that is just as terrible and needs to be called out, as it does in more 'commercial' musical theatre, where you probably have a slightly more diverse audience.

And yes, you're absolutely right, it will be easier in areas where vocal demands are not a factor, but just because it's more difficult in musical theatre or opera doesn't mean that the work doesn't have to be done there, too.

So in my mind, if you can't get a trans performer of a caliber you need for a trans role, look a bit further afield. Or maybe wait a couple of years and nurture the people who's stories you want to tell to be able to tell them themselves. It's important to tell stories with dignity and respect, but it's just as important to cast roles of characters that are supposed to tell these stories with dignity and respect. And just putting a man in a dress cos "that will have to do for now" just isn't good enough. I'm sorry, it just isn't.

I think you are wrong to seek to dismiss those who have already played the role of Bernadette as just having been a man in a dress. They have been professional actors who have worked hard to create an interpretation of a complex character. They have, to my knowledge, never sought to diminish or underplay the trans part of Bernadette. And certainly never to make fun of Bernadette.

You and others disagree with the decision to cast them. But it is wrong to dismiss their performances as just being a man in a dress.

I don't believe that a gay character always has to be played by a gay actor. As a gay man and theatre maker, I don't believe that is always an absolute necessity. I suspect that the overwhelming majority of theatregoers don't care about the sexuality of the actors on stage. They do care about the quality of the performances.

Does having a gay actor play a gay character mean you get greater 'authenticity? Not necessarily. I remember one production I reviewed that featured a gay character and I felt the performance was forced to the point of parody. That actor was gay. Just not right for the role or badly directed.

Yes representation matters. I get that and I work in my own casting to do that but never at the expense of the overall quality/feel of the piece. But I don't set myself quotas or rules.

I want to work with actors who will do the research about the lives of their character. Who will seek to understand the world of the play and how their character fits into that environment. That combined with the work in the rehearsal room will lead to satisfying performances that engage audiences.

I will never cast a gay actor to play a gay character just because they are gay. And should I direct a project involving trans characters, I would adopt the same approach. Casting should never be a tick box exercise. I would work to find the best candidates for the roles and go from there. No-one would automatically be excluded but no-one would automatically be given priority.

This ^^^^
I’m wondering how many of the letter signatures have seen the show.
If their takeaway from it is that Bernadette is portrayed as just a ‘man in a dress’ then they have missed the point of the show which is tolerance, inclusivity and love. The part of Bernadette is never played for cheap laughs, poignantly and the role enhances positive understanding of the struggles the trans community face. I didn’t feel it was any less authentic watching a man playing it. In fact having not bought a programme I would’ve had no idea of who was playing the role much less the background or the sexual orientation or gender of any of the actors. Again, I would be interested in how many triple threat trans actors there are over 50 suitable to play the role? The work starts now with drama schools/casting directors and agents and even writers to start focusing on modern society in all its beautiful diversity. But it’s naive to think this will happen overnight working with a tiny pool of trans performers.

[Deleted]

The letter to the stage says 'what you have done this year, is violence' 'putting a man in a dress is violence against a Transgender woman' 'This year we will overact, abd that is a goddam threat'

I understand theyre upset, but that letter doesnt do them any favours. I'd be like, go then, overact. Then what do they do? What is being acheived by threatening anyone? Zero.

It comes across as a bit of a tantrum because they didn't get exactly what they wanted. Has the production company done more to be more inclusive, yes, is there still a way to go, hell yes. So then build on that, dont go all nuclear on producers.

[inthenose]

Right, can I just check, does cis more or less mean heterosexual, or is it something different? I'm really not sure what's going on any more... I'm also nervous to Google it as it might be some slang I don't know and I don't want to muddy my browser history with filth 😉