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Post by David J on Oct 8, 2021 16:32:52 GMT
I've only experienced the Queens version of the original, but watching recordings and clips of the Palace version gosh I wish I went to see it. Especially for the large sets and orchestra.
If I were to defend the Queens version however, it would be how intimate the action felt sitting close to the stage. With the set extending out to where the boxes are and the cast standing there during the Paris scenes.
I haven't got anything against the 'new' set. I liked back in 2010 and think it's a great touring set. But it will never replace the original and the replacement is a complete downgrade.
Seen many casts. First time seeing the Queens was back in 2006, with Sean Kingsley as Valjean, Michael McCarthy as Javert Joanna Ampil as Fantine, Stephen Tate and Katy Secombe as the Thenardiers, Gary Tushaw as Marius, Gemma Wardle as Eponine and the one and only Ramin Karimloo as Enjorlas. Sadly I can't remember much about the performances. The only thing that stuck out was how deep Sean Kingsley's voice was as Valjean.
Perhaps the best casts I've seen, overall, were the 2010 touring cast (minus sadly Earl Carpenter who was off sick) and the 2012-13 Queens Theatre cast with Geromino Rauch, Sierra Boggess and Tam Mutu. Which I suppose is telling how the quality of the casting went down over the last decade minus exceptions
My dream cast would be (and those I've seen live)
Valjean: John Owen Jones (Geromino Rauch close behind)
Javert: Jeremy Secomb
Fantine: Rachelle Ann Go
Enjorlas: Bradley Jaden
Marius: Craig Mather
Eponine: Carrie Hope Fisher
Thenardier: Steven Meo
People I didn't like were Phil Daniels as Thenardier and Haydn Tee as Javert
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Post by danb on Oct 8, 2021 17:03:14 GMT
My dream cast would be (and those I've seen live)
Valjean: John Owen Jones (Geromino Rauch close behind)
Javert: Jeremy Secomb
Fantine: Rachelle Ann Go
Enjorlas: Bradley Jaden
Marius: Craig Mather
Eponine: Carrie Hope Fisher
Thenardier: Steven Meo
Good call. I’d probably have James Gant as my Javert, but otherwise this.
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146 posts
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Post by matilda1 on Oct 9, 2021 0:32:44 GMT
There must be quite a lot of illness in the company at the moment. 2nd cover Cosette on tonight.
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Post by inthenose on Oct 9, 2021 1:04:09 GMT
Funny you mention Hayden Tee, I saw him in the superb 2005 "save the show" cast where they basically cleared everyone out and brought in a whole new company, RD, the lot. Around that time it was dying and playing half houses, even at weekends and matinees. He was an excellent Marius, really good - in an electric and diverse cast. Then I saw his Javert. Exactly this kind of casting was the start of the terrible drop in quality. Some "returns" have been better than others (Thaxton was amazing as Enjolras, fine as Javert, because he has the voice) and then Ramin.
Ramin, as a good example, went away and earnt his place as Valjean in this prestigious show, earning the part not just on talent alone but experience. He did contracts in the ensemble, covered Marius (phenomenal), went and did Raoul, came back as Enjolras.
Hayden Tee, Tam Mutu and the like are just shouty and miscast in the part. Wonderful in other roles. They look wrong, sound wrong and are in roles above their experience. 10 years time, when they would be age appropriate and ready? Maybe.
I know it sounds harsh, but until you see a truly quality cast where everyone belongs and performs on equal footing, it is impossible to compare. Prior to lockdown, I can't say this has happened in a decade - or longer.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2021 1:28:27 GMT
The first time i saw Les Miz will always be a standout to me. It was 89/89. Peter Karrie (JVJ) Clive Carter (Javert) Mario Frangoulis (Marius) Linzi Hateley (Eponine) Barry James (Thenadier) Gay Soper (Mdm T) I even laminated the programme cover to keep it clean as soon as i got home. I have the house camera recording from 87/88 cast and the difference between then and now is stark.
The Manchester cast, from the 1st UK tour (1992) also stand out, along with the French company in Paris, 2010.
There's really only 1 person who I have hated in any production of the show. Matt Lucas. He should never have been near it. Thenadier is a villain, not a pantomime dame.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Oct 9, 2021 6:46:37 GMT
Then there is the same issue going on at Phantom in terms of casting policy. Les Mis and Phantom are top-tier shows, known for their excellence in production values, world class casts and being the pinnacle of an aspiring performer,a career. Playing Jean Valjean , Javert or even Eponine is a top credit, and used to be one earnt but learning the craft with years of seasoning. Auditioning every year and getting closer and closer, until you're "ready". Now, the cast is full of drama school leavers. Making their professional debut... not in rep, not in a regional pantomime or small tour. In the longest running and most beloved musical in the West End. Well, surely if you're good enough, age isn't an issue? Many of them simply aren't appropriate for roles they are being pushed headfirst into. One poor lad looked completely lost, a deer in headlights when I saw it. Blew a couple of lines. Was not ready for the big time. This lack of quality control and desperate lack of steady hands in the cast is at critical mass. I agree on the whole that the ageing down is an issue but not to condemn everyone, Killian Donnelly and Nic Greenshields were an impressive pairing on the last tour. And of course, as we get older everyone starts to appear younger (especially policemen!) |
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Post by danb on Oct 9, 2021 9:04:51 GMT
Greenshields was excellent. But we had the Mondaystudy on as JVJ. |
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Post by David J on Oct 9, 2021 9:20:56 GMT
Ramin, as a good example, went away and earnt his place as Valjean in this prestigious show, earning the part not just on talent alone but experience. He did contracts in the ensemble, covered Marius (phenomenal), went and did Raoul, came back as Enjolras. I never saw him live so can’t judge him too much but watching videos of him in the Broadway revival he certainly had the vocals for it but he too resorted to shouting. As well as talking some of the lyrics that has infected the musical increasingly with future casts. Same could be said for his fellow cast members so the direction is probably part of the problem. There was a q&a I saw with Philip quast that chichester festival theatre hosted (online). He gave some real insight into Trevor Nunn’s directing, bringing his experience as a Shakespeare director, where he knew how to get his casts to mean every word they said or sang. It’s night and day compared to the direction nowadays |
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Post by inthenose on Oct 9, 2021 17:10:00 GMT
Then there is the same issue going on at Phantom in terms of casting policy. Les Mis and Phantom are top-tier shows, known for their excellence in production values, world class casts and being the pinnacle of an aspiring performer,a career. Playing Jean Valjean , Javert or even Eponine is a top credit, and used to be one earnt but learning the craft with years of seasoning. Auditioning every year and getting closer and closer, until you're "ready". Now, the cast is full of drama school leavers. Making their professional debut... not in rep, not in a regional pantomime or small tour. In the longest running and most beloved musical in the West End. Well, surely if you're good enough, age isn't an issue? Many of them simply aren't appropriate for roles they are being pushed headfirst into. One poor lad looked completely lost, a deer in headlights when I saw it. Blew a couple of lines. Was not ready for the big time. This lack of quality control and desperate lack of steady hands in the cast is at critical mass. I agree on the whole that the ageing down is an issue but not to condemn everyone, Killian Donnelly and Nic Greenshields were an impressive pairing on the last tour. And of course, as we get older everyone starts to appear younger (especially policemen!) Nic is great, very down to earth guy and superb performer. He was a good Javert and an even better Phantom. He is also 42 years old... |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Oct 9, 2021 17:33:57 GMT
Greenshields was excellent. But we had the Mondaystudy on as JVJ. Yes, I went a second time and experienced that too. I know what you mean… |
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Post by danb on Oct 9, 2021 17:41:20 GMT
Yes, I went a second time and experienced that too. I know what you mean… He was about 12. Sang it very well but it jars when they look younger than you. |
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Post by tom on Oct 9, 2021 19:36:06 GMT
I agree on the whole that the ageing down is an issue but not to condemn everyone, Killian Donnelly and Nic Greenshields were an impressive pairing on the last tour. And of course, as we get older everyone starts to appear younger (especially policemen!) Nic is great, very down to earth guy and superb performer. He was a good Javert and an even better Phantom. He is also 42 years old... Just commented on Phantom thread before I read this and couldn't disagree more about him being a good Phantom. When I saw him he was off pitch at several points. Seen him in other things where he was good though so maybe he had a bad night when I saw him as Phantom? |
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Post by inthenose on Oct 9, 2021 19:38:47 GMT
It's very possible or maybe his performance didn't work for you. He definitely wasn't off key when I saw him though.
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 9, 2021 20:44:17 GMT
Yes, I went a second time and experienced that too. I know what you mean… He was about 12. Sang it very well but it jars when they look younger than you.
Back when the then-new production toured in 2010 I saw the understudy Valjean, Chris Jacobsen, who was only something like 21 or 22 at the time. I thought when I saw he was on that he'd seem way too young but I was actually very impressed with his performance. (Admittedly it may have helped that I was sat in the upper circle & I'm short sighted!) So I suppose performance doesn't always depend on actual age. Wasn't JOJ the youngest ever Valjean some decades ago. I would however agree that the blanket very young casting that they seem to have done for the last few years is not ideal. I last saw the show in 2014 & thought the cast came over as rather too young as a whole & I gather it's only headed more in that direction since.
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Post by danb on Oct 9, 2021 20:52:11 GMT
Ideally they need a very versatile age appropriate cover for JVJ & Javert, and anyone that isn’t a student.
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Post by alison on Oct 9, 2021 21:42:43 GMT
He was about 12. Sang it very well but it jars when they look younger than you.
Back when the then-new production toured in 2010 I saw the understudy Valjean, Chris Jacobsen, who was only something like 21 or 22 at the time. I thought when I saw he was on that he'd seem way too young but I was actually very impressed with his performance. (Admittedly it may have helped that I was sat in the upper circle & I'm short sighted!) So I suppose performance doesn't always depend on actual age. Wasn't JOJ the youngest ever Valjean some decades ago. I would however agree that the blanket very young casting that they seem to have done for the last few years is not ideal. I last saw the show in 2014 & thought the cast came over as rather too young as a whole & I gather it's only headed more in that direction since.
Mum and I saw Chris from front stalls for press night in Edinburgh when JOJ was stuck somewhere because of the Icelandic volcano eruption. From there he was obviously too young but not ridiculously so, and we both said that we thought he'd make an excellent Valjean in a decade or so.
I have no issue with the students/Eponine/Cosette being cast younger on the whole, but please give us some older Valjeans and Javerts again. It seems to have become more and more the thing over the last few years (not just with Les Mis) that where a character covers a large age range on stage, rather than casting someone in the middle who can somewhat reasonably play both down and up, they just cast someone young and have done with it.
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Post by David J on Oct 9, 2021 22:43:40 GMT
I’m sure JOJ said in an interview or something that when he first played Valjean at a young age he felt he wasnt ready for it and should wait till he was older
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2021 7:31:57 GMT
Perhaps the best casts I've seen, overall, were the 2010 touring cast (minus sadly Earl Carpenter who was off sick) and the 2012-13 Queens Theatre cast with Geromino Rauch, Sierra Boggess and Tam Mutu. Which I suppose is telling how the quality of the casting went down over the last decade minus exceptions Yes, I completely agree with the 2012/13 London cast. I saw it in July 2012, so before Sierra Boggess had joined, but Geronimo Rauch, Tam Mutu, Craig Mather, Danielle Hope, Cameron Blakely and Linzi Hateley were all great. I really enjoyed Tam's Javert when I saw him, but it was only a few weeks into his run. Watching videos of his last performance two years later on YouTube, I understand the comments about him on this thread: shouting and over the top. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2021 7:53:24 GMT
Mum and I saw Chris from front stalls for press night in Edinburgh when JOJ was stuck somewhere because of the Icelandic volcano eruption. From there he was obviously too young but not ridiculously so, and we both said that we thought he'd make an excellent Valjean in a decade or so. I saw Christopher Jacobsen as Valjean in Edinburgh too, in April 2010, when JOJ was stuck abroad. There was quite a lot to take in, with it being the first time seeing the new version, but I don't remember being too bothered about his age. He was visibly younger than other Valjeans, but I don't think it really showed in his performance. In fact, seeing him years later in the Les Mis concert, I was quite surprised at how young he looks now, and so how young he must have been in 2010. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2021 8:12:08 GMT
In contrast, the "worst" performance of Les Mis I've seen was the 2019 UK tour in Newcastle. I say worst in inverted commas as it's all relative, but I do think it was the weakest cast I've seen, and mainly because of the age/experience of a lot of the cast.
As others have said, Nic Greenshields was fantastic, and easily the best performer on stage. Killian Donnelly and Katie Hall were good, but the student scenes were not great - I really felt like I was watching a high school production at times. Some good voices, but also some bad/silly/inexperienced acting. I suppose this may also have been due to a lack of proper direction, but it has put me off catching the tour again.
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Post by matilda1 on Oct 10, 2021 13:18:04 GMT
Yes, I agree Furet, some fantastic singing, that goes without saying, but the quality of acting does not always match the vocal performances, especially amongst the younger members of the cast.
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Post by scarpia on Oct 10, 2021 21:33:33 GMT
He was about 12. Sang it very well but it jars when they look younger than you.
Back when the then-new production toured in 2010 I saw the understudy Valjean, Chris Jacobsen, who was only something like 21 or 22 at the time. I thought when I saw he was on that he'd seem way too young but I was actually very impressed with his performance. (Admittedly it may have helped that I was sat in the upper circle & I'm short sighted!) So I suppose performance doesn't always depend on actual age. Wasn't JOJ the youngest ever Valjean some decades ago. I would however agree that the blanket very young casting that they seem to have done for the last few years is not ideal. I last saw the show in 2014 & thought the cast came over as rather too young as a whole & I gather it's only headed more in that direction since.
Even when JOJ was first cast, he was able to 'age up' convincingly so it didn't really matter too much. The original production was actually still in good shape until around 2009/10. It's since 2010 that it went completely downhill and I assume that, with Cameron having planned for some time to replace it with the Laurence Connor/James Powell version, the last decade was a period of 'planned obsolescence'... It's no wonder that the new production was welcomed by those who said the old production was tired, because the old production was ALLOWED to get tired. They just gave up with caring for it; but it didn't need to be that way. I hadn't bothered to revisit the show for quite a few years until the last night of the original production, and on that night I was quite shocked at the state of the show. |
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 11, 2021 11:37:58 GMT
Even when JOJ was first cast, he was able to 'age up' convincingly so it didn't really matter too much. The original production was actually still in good shape until around 2009/10. It's since 2010 that it went completely downhill and I assume that, with Cameron having planned for some time to replace it with the Laurence Connor/James Powell version, the last decade was a period of 'planned obsolescence'... It's no wonder that the new production was welcomed by those who said the old production was tired, because the old production was ALLOWED to get tired. They just gave up with caring for it; but it didn't need to be that way. I hadn't bothered to revisit the show for quite a few years until the last night of the original production, and on that night I was quite shocked at the state of the show. I first saw Les Mis in 2009, saw it a number of times 2009-2010, once in 2011, once in 2014 & not since. So it sounds like I got in just in time! It did feel at the time that the new tour production was being favoured over London, especially when they moved two of the strongest London cast members, Earl Carpenter & Katie Hall, over to the tour production after they'd only done a few months in London. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2021 14:29:41 GMT
Even when JOJ was first cast, he was able to 'age up' convincingly so it didn't really matter too much. The original production was actually still in good shape until around 2009/10. It's since 2010 that it went completely downhill and I assume that, with Cameron having planned for some time to replace it with the Laurence Connor/James Powell version, the last decade was a period of 'planned obsolescence'... It's no wonder that the new production was welcomed by those who said the old production was tired, because the old production was ALLOWED to get tired. They just gave up with caring for it; but it didn't need to be that way. I hadn't bothered to revisit the show for quite a few years until the last night of the original production, and on that night I was quite shocked at the state of the show. I first saw Les Mis in 2009, saw it a number of times 2009-2010, once in 2011, once in 2014 & not since. So it sounds like I got in just in time! It did feel at the time that the new tour production was being favoured over London, especially when they moved two of the strongest London cast members, Earl Carpenter & Katie Hall, over to the tour production after they'd only done a few months in London. Earl Carpenter played Javert in London from 2008 to 2010 before doing the tour. But to be fair, opening a UK tour with leads from a West End production is nothing new. Les Mis had done it in previous tours with Philip Quast, Meredith Braun, John Owen Jones... so I don't think that's a case of favouring the new version over the original London version. However, I do agree that the writing was on the wall for the original version by 2010. |
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Post by shady23 on Oct 21, 2021 18:02:19 GMT
Richard Carson is on as Javert tonight.
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