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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 15:18:44 GMT
cancel ˈkans(ə)l verb 1. decide or announce that (a planned event) will not take place. It’s been cancelled at the RC |
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Post by distantcousin on Dec 14, 2017 15:24:40 GMT
That refers to the staging of the text not the text itself, it's a clear difference (although I imagine that the distinction between text and staging isn't that widely understood). Cardinal, I honestly think that you have misinterpreted the meaning of "staging" in the context of the statement. It has nothing to do with the production vs. text etc (after all it was directed by a female). In the context of the statement "staging" simply means the appearance of the play on the stage of the Royal Court, so the statement absolutely refers to the play's content. They should have had the courage to present Dunbar's work and to find a way to separate it from MS-C's misdemeanours. And for those who think that this is just a simple matter I beg to differ. There are so few plays by women presented on the British stages these days (although I must say that the RC is one of the theatre's that has upheld the tradition established by none other than MS-C of gender parity) that to cancel a work is a serious matter.
You have hit the nail on the head here. MSC is not involved with the production anymore. Yet cast, crew, audiences and the legacy of Andrea suffer as a result. We have all lost out.
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Post by wiggymess on Dec 14, 2017 15:35:09 GMT
Agree with this or not, this is the result and how a lot of people will view it. A shame. |
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Post by wiggymess on Dec 14, 2017 15:36:00 GMT
cancel ˈkans(ə)l verb 1. decide or announce that (a planned event) will not take place. It’s been cancelled at the RC It's very clear that I am aware of this.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 16:02:25 GMT
Agree with this or not, this is the result and how a lot of people will view it. A shame. Anyone up for a trip to Wales? It’s not that far from London Sod the RC The same theatre That presented and will present Tim fountain sex addict My mums a Tw*t This decision of theirs Almost smacks of the superstitious The more I think about it It’s so weird and bizarre Mock politically driven over sensitisation Making decisions on the behalf of the audience |
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Post by sf on Dec 14, 2017 16:44:20 GMT
Only those who have attended the cancelled production can comment on the cancellation of a production that they can no longer attend... due to its cancellation. It opened in September, and some of us have seen it. |
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Post by sf on Dec 14, 2017 16:52:24 GMT
You have hit the nail on the head here. MSC is not involved with the production anymore. Yet cast, crew, audiences and the legacy of Andrea suffer as a result. We have all lost out.
Max Stafford-Clark may have been forced out, but in Bolton, at least, he retained billing as co-director and co-script editor. |
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Post by wiggymess on Dec 14, 2017 17:00:37 GMT
Only those who have attended the cancelled production can comment on the cancellation of a production that they can no longer attend... due to its cancellation. It opened in September, and some of us have seen it. Interested to hear your thoughts. |
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Post by sf on Dec 14, 2017 17:42:43 GMT
It opened in September, and some of us have seen it. Interested to hear your thoughts. Well, since I created this thread after I saw it, you could start by going back to the very first post. |
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Post by wiggymess on Dec 14, 2017 17:47:12 GMT
Interested to hear your thoughts. Well, since I created this thread after I saw it, you could start by going back to the very first post. Oh right, another poster like that. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 18:14:16 GMT
There is something about this that leaves a nasty taste. Others have pointed out plays that complicate the debate and which were programmed during VF's "reign". I'll add another one: "The Nether". I believe this play, that imagines a virtual world where paedos are allowed to safely indulge their fantasies, even transferred to the West End. They might well say that they wouldn't programme such a play today and my question is "why not?" If indeed they wouldn't programme this play today it makes them complicit in what happened before the whole sexual harassment stuff came to light. If theatres are going to start censoring they'd better take a good look at themselves and their own culpability in the process.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 18:38:51 GMT
There is something about this that leaves a nasty taste. Others have pointed out plays that complicate the debate and which were programmed during VF's "reign". I'll add another one: "The Nether". I believe this play, that imagines a virtual world where paedos are allowed to safely indulge their fantasies, even transferred to the West End. They might well say that they wouldn't programme such a play today and my question is "why not?" If indeed they wouldn't programme this play today it makes them complicit in what happened before the whole sexual harassment stuff came to light. If theatres are going to start censoring they'd better take a good look at themselves and their own culpability in the process. If, if, if. Again, trying to make this into something wider. Why? What is going on here? Actually, I just read a vile article from Spiked articulating the same views as expressed here by Brendan O'Neill (who once wrote that Jimmy Saville's victims should just shut up and move on). former communist now libertarian (read, never got past being a student). You want a wider context then there you go, a number of men using Dunbar, in her absence, to complain about contemporary feminism and the #metoo movement. I'm not going to link to it and give it oxygen but when he went off to try and co-opt the working class and how we see sex as 'fun' compared to the uptight middle class and how Stafford Clark was the hero here, my computer screen barely survived intact. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 19:04:34 GMT
I'll probably regret wading in BUT...I think there's a hell of a lot of 'what if' happening right now. RC pulled this, which may or may not turn out to be for the best. If the whole remaining tour had been cancelled that is one thing, as it stands the piece is still being shared, therefore the playwright's voice is still out there and the hard work of the rest of the company (SC aside) is still being seen. In difficult and complex circumstances that's good enough I think.
It's also fair to acknowledge that Kate Wassarberg and the team at Out of Joint are dealing with a complex situation that's difficult to navigate- and is also steeped heavily in a theatrical past. They don't have a map for that so I take my hat off to a team who seem to be keeping their heads down and doing the best to work out what next. And if the RC have their reasons for pulling, and/or it's a joint decision then fair play. Given the timing, it's lucky this play got on it's feet at all.
These are new waters both at OOJ and everywhere, we hope and in a good way, it's not going to always be a smooth ride and I expect some 'art' will be 'sacrificed' along the way. But I'll take a handful of that for a greater good emerging somewhere down the line personally.
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Post by tributary on Dec 14, 2017 20:32:34 GMT
These are new waters both at OOJ and everywhere, we hope and in a good way, it's not going to always be a smooth ride and I expect some 'art' will be 'sacrificed' along the way. But I'll take a handful of that for a greater good emerging somewhere down the line personally. If only this sort of artistic censorship - and yes, that is precisely what this is - had ever led to a greater good emerging. It doesn’t. I agree with the people who find this decision both weak and worrying. I don’t think the RC mean badly, but it’s another sign of the times, where adherence to the party line counts more than the quality of the work on stage. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 21:22:29 GMT
Actually, I just read a vile article from Spiked articulating the same views as expressed here by Brendan O'Neill (who once wrote that Jimmy Saville's victims should just shut up and move on). former communist now libertarian (read, never got past being a student). You want a wider context then there you go, a number of men using Dunbar, in her absence, to complain about contemporary feminism and the #metoo movement.
I am finding this complex debate very engaging, but when someone links my comments to such vile ideas as those above then it becomes odiously personal. I am sure (I hope) that the poster did not mean what is suggested here: That I - and any other woman - who expresses dissent of any kind is colluding with predators, Saville apologists or anti feminists. My comments were levelled at an institution (all theatre institutions, actually) which should be able to answer difficult questions from its audience/public. I am not going to offer unquestioning support to any AD's - not even the female ones. Behind the scenes some people have questioned the sexual harassment prevalent in theatre for years, but nothing was done about it. Theatres should not be given a pat on the back for drawing up guidelines that other workplaces have had in place for over thirty years. For me, what is happening with this issue may indicate that a lot of theatre personnel are out of their depth. And my question about "The Nether" remains.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 21:43:34 GMT
Out of Joint removed Max after the comments came to light which was several months ago. No other historic allegations have surfaced about MSC since, so you could assume the incident had been dealt with.
Are the Royal Court going to airbrush Max from all their history too I wonder for incidents which happened so many years after he left the theatre. It seems strange to deny people the chance to see a play due to an already reported incident which wasn't anywhere near the level of the Spacey allegations.
I hope another London theatre will pick up this production for disappointed patrons.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 21:59:48 GMT
Actually, I just read a vile article from Spiked articulating the same views as expressed here by Brendan O'Neill (who once wrote that Jimmy Saville's victims should just shut up and move on). former communist now libertarian (read, never got past being a student). You want a wider context then there you go, a number of men using Dunbar, in her absence, to complain about contemporary feminism and the #metoo movement.I am finding this complex debate very engaging, but when someone links my comments to such vile ideas as those above then it becomes odiously personal. I am sure (I hope) that the poster did not mean what is suggested here: That I - and any other woman - who expresses dissent of any kind is colluding with predators, Saville apologists or anti feminists. My comments were levelled at an institution (all theatre institutions, actually) which should be able to answer difficult questions from its audience/public. I am not going to offer unquestioning support to any AD's - not even the female ones. Behind the scenes some people have questioned the sexual harassment prevalent in theatre for years, but nothing was done about it. Theatres should not be given a pat on the back for drawing up guidelines that other workplaces have had in place for over thirty years. For me, what is happening with this issue may indicate that a lot of theatre personnel are out of their depth. And my question about "The Nether" remains. Of course I wasn't saying you were colluding but people like that are ready to jump on and twist such things around to their own ends. Should that stop anybody expressing them? Of course not, but it should make us wary of how our words and actions can be turned against us. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 23:08:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 23:12:11 GMT
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Post by oxfordsimon on Dec 15, 2017 11:25:20 GMT
Roy Williams - a respected writer - is also not happy with the RC decision
Roy Williams
Yesterday at 08:45 ·
I love the Royal Court, but their decision to cancel Rita, Sue and Bob Too is so wrong I don't know where to begin.
(from Facebook)
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Post by zahidf on Dec 15, 2017 11:56:21 GMT
Out of Joint removed Max after the comments came to light which was several months ago. No other historic allegations have surfaced about MSC since, so you could assume the incident had been dealt with. Are the Royal Court going to airbrush Max from all their history too I wonder for incidents which happened so many years after he left the theatre. It seems strange to deny people the chance to see a play due to an already reported incident which wasn't anywhere near the level of the Spacey allegations. I hope another London theatre will pick up this production for disappointed patrons.
Nope there have been a few actresses who have spoken out about him since then.
He co-directed it. He was involved in the specific production
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Post by oxfordsimon on Dec 15, 2017 12:50:19 GMT
He left 3 days into the rehearsal process from what I have read - so it would be wrong to consider him a co-director on the whole project. Certainly OOJ are not listing him as being involved in that capacity now.
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Post by paplazaroo on Dec 15, 2017 18:59:17 GMT
So now VF has done a dramatic U-turn and is allowing it back! Can't tell if she's just a people pleaser or a good leader
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 19:19:30 GMT
So now VF has done a dramatic U-turn and is allowing it back! Can't tell if she's just a people pleaser or a good leader Weak leadership and that's a shame, bowing to the those who don't really understand the context. They'd better put on a whole lot of events to make sure that the audience gets that context as putting on a play that was sheperded by a director who has abused his power with women, in that very same theatre, and with its content shaped to be as it is by that director is asking for trouble. Saying that 'we tried not to have it here but people disagreed' is not nearly enough of an excuse. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Dec 15, 2017 19:44:48 GMT
I understand the context perfectly well and the original decision was still flawed. The play was the perfect opportunity to continue and expand the conversation - and could have been surrounded by events and education to examine so many issues.
The RC leadership now do look weak.
If they really thought the play and the production was so problematic, the rest of the tour should have been pulled - not just the RC leg of it.
Their attempt at a half-way house approach failed to satisfy on so many levels. It is very hard to articulate why they thought the play was fine to be seen on other stages but not by audiences at the Royal Court. They failed to make that case and there was an inevitable backlash.
None of this undermines the great work that has been done at the RC in the area of harassment and bullying. As I said in my first contribution to this thread, I am using their documentation as the basis for my own policy review and I am grateful for their championing of these issues.
I am sure their intentions have been honorable throughout - but they have mishandled things twice.
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