The Great American Songbook

[tonyloco]

Diverting a little from the main thrust of this thread, did anybody see 'A Damsel in Distress' at Chichester in 2015? I thought it was wonderful although this was not by any means the general opinion. I can of course cite chapter and verse as to why I enjoyed it so much, but did anybody else like it?

[tmesis]

Sept 21, 2017 20:51:36 GMT tonyloco said:

Diverting a little from the main thrust of this thread, did anybody see 'A Damsel in Distress' at Chichester in 2015? I thought it was wonderful although this was not by any means the general opinion. I can of course cite chapter and verse as to why I enjoyed it so much, but did anybody else like it?

I really LOVED this. I think it was deserving of a wider audience. They captured the mood and tone of it just right.

[tonyloco]

Sept 22, 2017 5:40:05 GMT tmesis said:

Sept 21, 2017 20:51:36 GMT tonyloco said:

Diverting a little from the main thrust of this thread, did anybody see 'A Damsel in Distress' at Chichester in 2015? I thought it was wonderful although this was not by any means the general opinion. I can of course cite chapter and verse as to why I enjoyed it so much, but did anybody else like it?

I really LOVED this. I think it was deserving of a wider audience. They captured the mood and tone of it just right.

I'm glad to hear that. I agree entirely.

Interesting that you mentioned recently the excellent Nonesuch series of Gershwin shows with the original orchestrations. I wonder whether they achieved the sales that they deserved? Talking of original Gershwin orchestrations, the EMI recording of Kiri Te Kanawa sings Gershwin ran into trouble at the recording sessions in New York.  It seems that the conductor John McGlinn, who had instigated the project, had not checked the set of the original orchestral parts before the sessions started and, to his consternation, it turned out that there were a lot of transcribing errors that had to be corrected as the sessions progressed and as it was not possible to arrange further sessions, they ended up recording fewer songs that had been originally planned. This benefited me personally in that when McGlinn came to record 'Annie Get Your Gun' he insisted on his usual 'rehearsal' session with the orchestra in which he played through the entire score to check the accuracy of the parts. On this occasion, Kim Criswell also attended the session and sang through the entire role of Annie, and I had a lovely time as an audience of one at my favourite musical! As a further thought, McGlinn did not want to record any Gershwin shows, perhaps because he knew the Nonesuch series had already done justice to Gershwin. What he did desperately want to record was Kurt Weill's 'Love Life' but EMI's marketing people felt that would not be commercial enough and so we got 'Brigadoon', 'Kiss Me, Kate' and 'Annie' as well of course as the fabulous complete 'Show Boat'.

[tmesis]

Fascinating stuff, as ever, Tony. I don't think the Nonsuch Gershwin series did make much money. I recall that Feinstein in his really excellent book on Gershwin said he was involved in the project because of his close working relationship with Ira and he said they planned to do all the musicals but ran out of funding. I'm fairly sure I have all they did (5 shows.) They were so well produced with all the libretto and copious, really interesting, articles.

[tonyloco]

For an explanation of my latest avatar, see 'Ban Hoodies from Shakespeare'. I expect I will change it fairly soon!

[tmesis]

Richard Rodgers

If Kern is my favourite I think Rodgers is the one I admire most. I think for sheer number of great songs he must be top of the list, even exceeding Berlin. I think it would be best to discuss him in two parts (Hart/Hammerstein) but first a few general things. Again with such staggering ability among the 5 greats this is debatable, but I would say he is the best melodist of the lot. His ability to knock out a cracking tune almost effortlessly, fills me with awe. Particularly in his Hammerstein years he wrote really big, open-hearted tunes that a Lloyd Weber always strives for,but nearly always fails to achieve.

So on to...

Rodgers and Hart

We've already commented on that masterful musical Pal Joey. All the songs are a delight to play but I particularly enjoy Bewitched. That opening four note phrase that is restated as the notes get closer together, has a yearning feel like no other song I can think of. I also adore My Funny Valentine, one of Rodger's very few minor key tunes. The best performance of this has to be Chet Baker; it absolutely breaks your heart. Other musicals by the duo that still work are Babes in Arms and The Boys from Syracuse (both given excellent performances a few years back at the Union.)

Other songs I love...

Manhattan

Mountain Greenery (has a scale ever been more effective)

With a song in my Heart (love Ella's version)

Where or When

This Can't be love

Blue Moon (has to be Mel for this, and he's the only one to get the punctuation right to put the meaning of the words across, something he's always very fastidious [but not precious] about.)

Spring is Here

Lover



I could go on...

I think Ella's two volumes in the songbook series are her most successful and enjoyable of the lot (the Porter set comes next.)
I also LOVE Dawn Upshaw sings Rodgers and Hart. She's about the only opera-trained singer I can take in this sort of stuff, not only take, she's an absolute natural at it.

I will pause for now, although I'll probably think of many other things later, but if not of course there's the small matter of Hammerstein to discuss.

[tonyloco]

Yes, it's a very rich assortment of wonderful songs, and that's just Rodgers and Hart! Personally I like playing those songs with a bit of punch in them like 'Thou swell' and 'You took advantage of me' – speaking of which brings Elaine Stritch inevitably to mind, interpolated into the recording of 'On Your Toes' and of course 'Zip' in 'Pal Joey'. I've just checked 'On Your Toes' and that has a great original score and includes several of Hart's really clever lyrics like 'The heart is quicker than the eye', 'It's got to be love' and 'Too good for the average man'. How did Rodgers compose those brilliant tunes first before Hart wrote the lyrics? Was this really the way it happened? Well, however it came about, those songs are amazing, and I think even sharper than Porter.

Oh, and don't forget 'Ten cents a dance', a song with which Ruth Madoc and I used to bring the house down in a really punchy performance at the Pindar of Wakefield. I guess our version maybe lacked subtlety but boy did we tear up the boards. The other big song that I loved to do was 'I'm still here' but that's by some other composer!

A few more that I liked to play are 'It's easy to remember' and 'There's a small hotel'. But why has nobody mentioned that anthem for all female jazz singers 'The lady is a tramp'?

So Rodgers has already claimed his place as one of the big five and he hasn't even got to Hammerstein yet!

[tonyloco]

By the way, if I remember correctly, in her recording of 'You took advantage of me', Stritch drops down a tone to give added welly to a slower repeat of the chorus. This is certainly a device I used to use with Toni Palmer when we were performing in the bar at Theatre Royal, Stratford East. Off the top of my head, I think a song like 'Give me the moonlight, give me the girl' responds well to this treatment. I know it's a man's song but that never stopped Toni singing it! If Bing Crosby could record 'There ain't no sweet man that's worth the salt of my tears' then why not?!

[tmesis]

I always wondered why Norman Grantz didn't have a word with Ella about her breath in the middle of a word in Manhattan:

'Sweet push carts gently gli(breath)ding by.'

[tonyloco]

Sept 23, 2017 15:20:40 GMT tmesis said:

I always wondered why Norman Grantz didn't have a word with Ella about her breath in the middle of a word in Manhattan:

'Sweet push carts gently gli(breath)ding by.'

Interesting point. Who knows?!

BTW, you mentioned Dawn Upshaw's R&H album.  EMI also has Frederica von Stade and John McGlinn doing an interesting assortment of standards as well as rarities by R&H:

Track Listings
Disc: 1
1. Babes In Arms: 'My Funny Valentine'
2. Chee-Chee: 'I Must Love You'
3. Too Many Girls: 'I Didn't Know What Time It Was'
4. Chee-Chee: 'Moon Of My Delight'
5. I'd Rather Be Right: 'Ev'rybody Loves You'
6. Heads Up!: 'A Ship Without a Sail'
7. On Your Toes: 'Quiet Night'
8. A Connecticut Yankee (Revival): 'To Keep My Love Alive'
9. Too Many Girls: 'Love Never Went To College'
10. Too Many Girls (Film Version): 'You're Nearer'
11. Betsy: 'If I Were You'
12. Pal Joey: 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered'
13. Two Weeks With Pay: 'Now That I Know You'
14. Dearest Enemy: 'Bye And Bye'
15. Lido Lady: 'Atlantic Blues'
16. Babes In Arms: 'Where Or When'
17. The Boys From Syracuse: 'Falling in Love With Love'

I used to think it was OK but haven't played it for some years and have no idea where it is now!

[tmesis]

Yes I'd forgotten about 'Flicka.' She was always one of my favourite singers and I saw her at ROH the very few times she came. She is very good in Showboat and In the DG version of On the Town. This whole opera singers doing musicals can often be extremely embarrassing, I don't think Te Kanawa ever quite got it, but I do like Bryn singing R&H (and also L&L.)

One of my all time favourites for all the wrong reasons as it is so terrible, is Sutherland singing Coward. The final song on the CD, a duet with The Master, is a camp classic.

[tonyloco]

Sept 23, 2017 15:45:30 GMT tmesis said:

Yes I'd forgotten about 'Flicka.' She was always one of my favourite singers and I saw her at ROH the very few times she came. She is very good in Showboat and In the DG version of On the Town. This whole opera singers doing musicals can often be extremely embarrassing, I don't think Te Kanawa ever quite got it, but I do like Bryn singing R&H (and also L&L.)

One of my all time favourites for all the wrong reasons as it is so terrible, is Sutherland singing Coward. The final song on the CD, a duet with The Master, is a camp classic.

Did you attend the concert(s)/recording of that DGG 'On the Town' at the Barbican? That was truly memorable. I used to have a special collection of LPs of opera singers making fools of themselves singing popular music. I seem to remember Renata Scotto made a whole ghastly LP and of course Birgit Nilsson singing 'I could have danced all night' in a 'Die Fledermaus' Gala was another clanger! But Eileen Farrell was an accomplished singer of American pop ballads and blues numbers. Kiri had some expert training for her various recordings of American popular songs but it never sounded really natural and even Lennie failed to get her sounding right as Maria in 'West Side Story'. In fact, when she made the Gershwin album with John McGlinn she did not take kindly to him telling her how to phrase the music! But I digress – as usual!

[tmesis]

Kiri was much better in the South Pacific she did with Carreras. I think it was CBS cashing in on the success of DG's WSS who produced it. I thought this much more enjoyable than WSS, not least because it also had Mandy Patinkin and Sarah Vaughan both showing the two 'stars' how it should be done.

Oh and I wasn't at the Barbican for On the Town but, my God, I wish. I had been!

[tonyloco]

Sept 23, 2017 16:20:47 GMT tmesis said:

Kiri was much better in the South Pacific she did with Carreras. I think it was CBS cashing in on the success of DG's WSS who produced it. I thought this much more enjoyable than WSS, not least because it also had Mandy Patinkin and Sarah Vaughan both showing the two 'stars' how it should be done.

Oh and I wasn't at the Barbican for On the Town but, my God, I wish. I had been!

Of course, that 'On the Town' recording was the exception that proves the rule in that the opera singers (Frederica von Stade, Thomas Hampson, Samuel Ramey, Evelyn Lear and Marie McLaughlin) more than held their own against the experienced non-operatic performers (David Garrison, Tyne Daly and Cleo Laine) and compared with the 'authentic' studio recording that Bernstein made with some members of the original cast some years later, it finally does full justice to the show.

[tmesis]

Rodgers and Hammerstein

It's very interesting that there's no falling off of Rodger's melodic gift when he composes to a pre-existing lyric; in fact, you could argue that his melodies are even more impressive with Hammerstein than with Hart. His tunes are definitely more expansive for Hammerstein, more operatic even. His harmonies, whilst still very sophisticated are simpler than with Hart. His ability to write a cracking Waltz, always there with Hart, now comes to the forefront.

It's probably best to discuss songs allied to the actual musicals so...

Oklahoma!

Not much to add to what's already been discussed re Proms performance. People will say we're in Love is probably the stand out song for me. I love how the middle section is the same tune as the opening but inverted. The best version of Surrey is Gordon McCrae but Bryn is superb in this in his R&H cd (it's really excellent all round.)

I loved the NT production.

Carousel

Probably the richest R&H score (although South Pacific is very close.) Where to start, it's absolutely packed with gems! The Carousel Waltz, with it's slightly dissonant harmonies so perfectly evokes, and sets off the fairground vibe but then the quality remains with song, after song.
When I marry Mr Snow
If I loved You (probably my favourite Rodgers ballad, until I think of another one!)
June is bustin' (what a superb rollicking tune with great drive.)
When the children are asleep
Soliloquy (others have commented more eloquently, but I'm just in awe as to how much musical richness the is in just 7 mins. - more than in a whole musical by ALW.)
What's the use of Wonderin'
You'll never walk alone (His first hymn-like tune,  that he then did once in all his subsequent hit shows.)

Again I loved the NT version but about two years ago there was a superb fringe production at the Arcola. I didn't go to the Coliseum because of my aversion to Jenkins. Surely this should be the next one to get the Wilson treatment at the Proms. You could do the Starkeeper scenes brilliantly at RAH by using the higher levels (the choir area, or, better stil, the gallery.)

I'll pause there,  but will return with South Pacific et al...

[tonyloco]

Yes, that's all totally correct and there's little I can add to any of it, except to say that my favourite songs in Carousel are all of them, even 'You'll never walk alone' with its religiosity. But who can resist its operatic power, especially when sung by somebody with a proper voice. The first time I saw the NT production I was in tears by the time we got to 'What's the use of wonderin'' but when I saw it the second time the tears started at 'If I loved you'. I do however feel rather strongly that R & H should have stuck with Molnar's original ending to Liliom and, as I have discussed with the theatremonkey, I think the ending of the recent production at the Coliseum did rather indicate that Billy had not done enough to warrant his salvation although it was rather ambiguous.

The only additional thought I can add at this stage and one that has been well documented is that after Hammerstein's run of major hit shows in the 1920s going right back to 'Rose Marie', 'The Desert Song', 'New Moon' and many others including of course 'Show Boat', he had had a lean time in the 1930s when he was working mainly in Hollywood and it is on record how much he was grateful to Rodgers for rescuing his career with 'Oklahoma' in 1943. It was certainly a marriage of true minds and I suspect that the fact that both men had a wealth of experience writing Broadway shows by the time they started working together, contributed to the ease with which they both seem to have adapted to working with each other. They do seem to have brought out the best in each other, especially allowing Rodgers to expand his style more broadly than with Hart.

[tonyloco]

Sept 24, 2017 16:20:41 GMT tmesis said:

The best version of Surrey is Gordon McCrae

I should just add that the three film soundtracks of 'Oklahoma', 'Carousel' and 'The King and I' released on the Capitol label were amongst EMI's all time best selling LPs until the era of Rock and Roll and the Beatles, and they still continued on into the CD era as among the most successful albums in the film and show catalogue. The fact that all three were stereo did of course help their longevity.

[Mr Snow]

Sept 24, 2017 18:30:32 GMT tonyloco said:

Sept 24, 2017 16:20:41 GMT tmesis said:

The best version of Surrey is Gordon McCrae

I should just add that the three film soundtracks of 'Oklahoma', 'Carousel' and 'The King and I' released on the Capitol label were amongst EMI's all time best selling LPs until the era of Rock and Roll and the Beatles, and they still continued on into the CD era as among the most successful albums in the film and show catalogue. The fact that all three were stereo did of course help their longevity.

I think I'm right in saying that show soundtracks were always priced at a serious premium. I can remember looking at them and my pocket money wouldn't go that far.  And this was the early 70's. 


Keep going guys. Delighted you singled out There's a small hotel, but Pal Joey also featured the underrated I could write a book, amongst the many wonderful songs they wrote.  On your Toes was revved a year later but it didn't have the same effect on me. 

Re the Rogers and Hammerstein partnership. I'm not sure they had that much in common except wives called Dorothy and years spent working in the theatre.  Two professionals at the top of their game. Once they'd had unprecedented success with Oklahoma why not push on. 

I saw the NT, Arcola and ENO productions of Carousel and took a lot from each. It seems like a bulletproof show! But I'm still not sure about Billy...

Finally The Sound of Music. there was great recent production at Regents Park and it made me reconsider. As I was growing up the contrast between its huge success via the saccharine film helped a young man turn against musical comedy and embrace the much grittier Rock and Roll.  Musicals did seem like old hat and not for my generation. But I think that they set the bar so high it was near on impossible to follow and it was hollywood who made it sentimental material and lost the youth audience. 

[tmesis]

South Pacific

Again this is so good (as Tony says) my favourites are all of them.

Twin Soliloquies - I think this absolutely exquisite, really touching, almost Puccini-esque.

Some enchanted evening - I love playing this on the piano, you can really give it wellie. Probably Rodgers's grandest melody.

Bloody Mary/There is nothing like a Dame - Rodgers was fantastic at these rousing chorus numbers.

I'm in love with a wonderful Guy - probably my favourite amongst his waltzes. This is an example of Rodgers having such a profusion of musical ideas he can almost afford to waste them. The verse alone has two cracking tunes; the first one, minor key 'I expect every one' and then the most expansive 'Fearlessly I'll face them' in the major and that drives so deliciously into the chorus 'I'm as corny,' all enhanced by the superb R.R.Bennett arrangement. I really admire this song!

Younger than Springtime - probably his simplest ballad musically but exquisite.

This nearly was mine - what a fabulously noble tune and in E flat too! This is a joy to play with a great middle section.


I've just listened again to the Kiri/Jose/Tunick version and it's way better than I remembered. Kiri is really excellent and so much more relaxed than on WSS. She had been working with Riddle in between and it shows. Jose is better too but his part was written for an opera singer, albeit a baritone. Sarah and Mandy are just sensational and the great LSO are conducted with real verve by Tunick.

Again loved the NT production (Philip Quast magnificent) more than the NY production that came to the Barbican.

[tmesis]

Sept 24, 2017 20:06:02 GMT Mr Snow said:

Finally The Sound of Music. there was great recent production at Regents Park and it made me reconsider.

Glad you've come back to it. I've always liked it but it does have some irksome moments! Will waffle on about it later.

[tonyloco]

Sept 24, 2017 20:06:02 GMT Mr Snow said:

I think I'm right in saying that show soundtracks were always priced at a serious premium. I can remember looking at them and my pocket money wouldn't go that far.  And this was the early 70's. 

I don't think there was that much of a premium on soundtracks, except that for Capitol they would have been on Capitol's most expensive popular label (probably SLCT) rather than the normal pop label ST, or whatever it was. But yes, there was certainly a premium. BTW, I see in the 1980 EMI UK catalogue that the surviving SLCT albums were the three mentioned above plus 'High Society' and Sinatra's 'Songs for Swinging Lovers' and looking further back, some of Nat King Cole's LPs were on SLCT as were some of Sinatra's so it couldn't have been that much of a premium price. I apologise on behalf of Capitol if that stopped you buying them, Mr Snow, but multitudes of other people did!

[tonyloco]

Sept 24, 2017 20:06:02 GMT Mr Snow said:

But I'm still not sure about Billy...

Well, in Molnar's original play, Billy is a bad boy in his treatment of Julie and his crazy idea of doing a robbery to find money to pay for his expectant child. He fails in his attempt to perform one good deed when he is allowed to return to earth after his time in purgatory so he fails to redeem himself and therefore presumably then goes to hell. But he did genuinely love Julie and she loved him and Wiki says the end of Molnar's play concentrates on Julie rather than be explicit about Billy's ultimate fate. In fact, this is fairly much what we saw at the Coliseum and those of us who wanted Billy to fail to get to heaven (because that's what Molnar wrote) could see that in how Alfie Boe played the final scene.

[tonyloco]

Sept 24, 2017 20:06:02 GMT Mr Snow said:

Keep going guys. Delighted you singled out There's a small hotel, but Pal Joey also featured the underrated I could write a book, amongst the many wonderful songs they wrote.  On your Toes was revved a year later but it didn't have the same effect on me. 

I think my pal Toni Palmer was in the West End production of 'Pal Joey' in 1954 and she was certainly very familiar with 'That terrific rainbow', including the verse, and we used to belt it out in the bar at Stratford East.

[tonyloco]

Regarding South Pacific, I think the CBS recordings of the original Broadway cast are amongst the most treasurable of all those original cast records from that era. Nobody has ever sung Emile's songs like Pinza, Mary Martin is wonderful and 'There is nothing like a dame' is bursting with macho energy. But did you know that CBS recorded only part of the score and it was left to EMI to record 'Twin Soliloquies' and the Finale when Mary Martin and Wilbur Evans were playing South Pacific at Drury Lane? My other best ever original cast recordings from that time are those from 'Kiss Me, Kate', where EMI also recorded some titles from the original London production but the Broadway ones are better!

[tonyloco]

Sept 24, 2017 23:55:05 GMT tonyloco said:

I think my pal Toni Palmer was in the West End production of 'Pal Joey' in 1954 and she was certainly very familiar with 'That terrific rainbow', including the verse, and we used to belt it out in the bar at Stratford East.

As at Monday 25 September until further notice, my avatar is Toni Palmer and Kent Baker entertaining in the bar at Theatre Royal, Stratford East. We performed before the show, during the interval and afterwards as well. At the end of the interval, when the bell sounded for the start of the second act, I would launch into: 'The bells are ringing, for me and my girl' and when we had finished, Kent would tell the punters: "That's enough of entertainment – now go back to the show!"