The Great American Songbook

[tonyloco]

PS. In response to a question from Mr Snow, I found a picture of Kent Baker taken in the bar at Theatre Royal, Stratford East, with Toni Palmer doing the bar entertainment in the days when Ken Hill and Caroline Eves were running the theatre after Joan Littlewood had left. The handsome devil playing the piano is of course yours truly. As I can't seem to get jpegs from my computer into my posts I will use the pic as my avatar for a while.

[tmesis]

Sept 18, 2017 9:46:57 GMT tonyloco said:

Tmesis, I think we're definitely singing from the same hymn sheet! When I played in a ghastly three-piece dance band in my youth (piano, trumpet and drums), one of the trumpeter's party pieces was Woody Herman's 'Golden Wedding' and of course we also did a version of Glen Miller's 'In the Mood' but I digress once more. No, I didn't see the programme on Artie Shaw, which sounds great.

I seem to have signed off on Porter rather prematurely and I should cite a few of his main songs that I particularly like, starting with two E flat classics: 'I've got you under my skin' and 'It's alright with me' (despite it's rather unresolved ending). 'Just one of those things' is great and 'It's de'lovely' always went down well in my tinkling days. And I love his New York songs like 'Take me back to Manhattan', 'Down in the depths of the 90th floor', 'I happen to like New York' and 'Make it another old fashioned' (which may not be specifically about New York but I always think it must be). But at the end of the day it's his strong theatrical songs that I like best, especially the clever ones like: 'Let's misbehave', 'My heart belongs to daddy' and 'Swell Party' which of course is one of Porter's wonderful catalogue songs like 'You're the top', 'Brush up your Shakespeare', 'Katie went to Haiti', 'Who wants to be a millionaire' and many others. But I am drawn back to the kind of songs you like and have to finish with Ella singing 'Every time we say goodbye' .... ! I say finish, but I just Googled 'Songs by Cole Porter' and there is absolutely no end to his talent!!

A few more (hurried) thoughts about Porter (teaching again at 4.30)

Everytime we say goodbye shouldn't be the classic it is, if you analyse it. The tune starts with eight repeated notes then hardly moves at all, the harmony is pleasant, but not clever, in fact it's fairly basic; there's no middle 8 to 'lift' the song and it's rhythmically pretty dull, almost like operatic recitative (but it is in E flat!) - and yet it's heart-wrenching.
You really can't analyse what makes a good tune; another example of which is Ray Noble's The Very Thought of you. I think this is a sensational tune but it really shouldn't be; it just oscillates between two notes a third apart and then just keeps doing the same thing again a bit higher, with lots of long notes in between. There's no middle 8, no clever chords and no modulations. Incidentally I love Al Bowley's original version with Noble and lovely 'period' piano but, yet again, Ella does the definitive version, arranged by Riddle; were the tune is reprised she does an absolutely sublime decoration to the tune and there is also a muted trumpet solo to die for. I would have to say this is my favourite Ella track (and my shelves are groaning with Ella!) of all time (beautiful recording quality too.)

[Dawnstar]

Sept 17, 2017 23:38:55 GMT tonyloco said:

For example, the Lost Musicals included Porter's 'The New Yorkers' a show from 1930 that achieved only 168 performances and included the song 'Love for sale' which was of little relevance to the main plot but boy, was it effective in performance.

Just seconding this. I saw that Lost Musicals New Yorkers & found that song both the best number in the show at the time and the only number from it that I can still remember several years later.

[Mr Snow]

Great thread and when I get a chance I'll try and contribute.


I have mixed feelings re Benny Green but he did introduce me to a lot of good music. I'd listen again if only they'd broadcast them.





La Mer is a wistful song dreaming about the sea. It was released in early 1946 and lapped up by a nation who had been unable to travel to for the previous 5 years. A special song that meant something really special to a whole nation. One of my all time favourites.


Beyond the Sea is a love song that Rocks. They have little in common except the notes. One of my favourites.

[tonyloco]

Sept 18, 2017 16:38:39 GMT Dawnstar said:

Just seconding this. I saw that Lost Musicals New Yorkers & found that song both the best number in the show at the time and the only number from it that I can still remember several years later.

Dawnstar: I have just dug out my review of 'The New Yorkers' and I see it was mainly a zany comedy and a showcase for Jimmy Durante although it did have a couple of strong Porter songs like 'I happen to like New York' and 'Take me back to Manhattan' as well as 'love for sale' but those two songs I already knew from other places like the Cole Porter revue called 'Cole' at the Mermaid and 'A Swell Party'. The other songs have mostly been forgotten although 'I'm getting myself ready for you' survives in the stage version of 'High Society'.

"Gangsters and bootleggers, society dames and broads, vaudeville entertainers, most of whom carry guns and shoot at the drop of an olive, seem like an unlikely mix for a musical, but they proved to be an irresistible cocktail in ‘The New Yorkers’, the show that Cole Porter wrote in 1930 between ‘Fifty Million Frenchmen’ and ‘Gay Divorce’. ‘An often surreally chaotic tale’ was how the critic in Time Out described the ‘fluffy’ plot, but with a script by Herbert Fields packed with brilliantly funny one-liners and put-downs, a score of ten songs by Cole Porter and three hilariously zany songs by Jimmy Durante -- magnificently recreated by Michael Roberts -- it all added up to a riotously enjoyable afternoon."

[tonyloco]

Sept 18, 2017 20:50:50 GMT Mr Snow said:

Great thread and when I get a chance I'll try and contribute.

Please do – it's a swell party but a few more guests would be welcome!

[tonyloco]

Sept 18, 2017 11:20:25 GMT tonyloco said:

PS. In response to a question from Mr Snow, I found a picture of Kent Baker taken in the bar at Theatre Royal, Stratford East, with Toni Palmer doing the bar entertainment in the days when Ken Hill and Caroline Eves were running the theatre after Joan Littlewood had left. The handsome devil playing the piano is of course yours truly. As I can't seem to get jpegs from my computer into my posts I will use the pic as my avatar for a while.

That pic from Stratford East didn't last long. My current avatar is from the Brick Lane Music Hall but no doubt it will be replaced by something else in the not too distant future.

[tmesis]

Sept 18, 2017 22:56:00 GMT tonyloco said:

Sept 18, 2017 20:50:50 GMT Mr Snow said:

Great thread and when I get a chance I'll try and contribute.

Please do – it's a swell party but a few more guests would be welcome!

A swelligant, elligant party!

[tonyloco]

Sept 19, 2017 7:31:39 GMT tmesis said:

A swelligant, elligant party!

Going a bit off thread, I love it when movies use theatrical conventions imaginatively and the encore of 'Well, did you evah?' by Bing Crosby and Frank Sinatra in the film of 'High Society' is a great example. Another favourite example is the last exchange in 'Some Like It Hot'

Jack Lemmon: We can't get married because I'm a man.
Joe E Brown: Well, nobody's perfect!

Blackout, just like the end of a comic sketch in a revue.

[tmesis]

Irving Berlin

Where to start!

Living to be 101 and writing around 1500 songs it's difficult to know where to begin.

General thoughts:

It's the absolute naturalness of his songs, with often simple direct words married to a killer tune. His music's so natural sounding that it's easy to overlook the craftsmanship and subtly in his massive output - he never draws attention to his genius.
Intriguing that he couldn't read music and played everything in F#, with a transposing piano (I can't really see how that would work.) Some assistant would then write down the dots and, it is claimed, help with the harmony. I always wonder how much help he got; a superb song like I've got my love to keep me Warm has a brilliant three-fold harmonic sequence at the start, of which Kern would have been proud. It's also fascinating that given his (on paper) lack of theoretical knowledge he should have written the best ever 'counterpoint' songs: Play a Simple Melody and You're just in Love. It's not hard to write two tunes that fit together, but to write two fabulous tunes that work together, like Berlin, is genius.

He was underestimated once the 'integrated' musical came along and then confounded the critics with Annie Get Your Gun (excellent Crucible production at Christmas) and Call me Madam (excellent Union production a few years ago.)

Just a few favourites:

Cheek to Cheek (clever structure, almost as massive as Begin the Beguine.)
They say that falling in love (fabulous sweep to the melody and unusual intervals)
Change Partners (love playing this one with the tune mainly in the bass and a bit of 'locked hands' as in G. Shearing.)
Let's face the music and Dance (great teasing major/minor tune, worthy of Schubert!)

[tonyloco]

OK tmesis, that's an excellent overview of Irving Berlin as one of the five top contributors to the Great American Songbook. I am impressed at how well you analyse the structure of his finest songs, as you have done with the best songs of Kern and Porter. But my musical tastes are a bit less sophisticated and I also respond strongly to his early songs which are very much in the spirit of American vaudeville. Just off the top of my head I will cite a few:

When the midnight choo choo leaves for Alabam
The International Rag
Alexander's ragtime band
Down on the farm (I wanna go back)
Ragtime Violin
I love a piano
Everybody's doing it now
Oh how I hate to get up in the morning
This is the Army Mr Jones
I've got my captain working for me now
You'd be surprised
CUBA
Let me sing and I'm happy
(memorably featured behind the opening titles of 'The Jolson Story'
and many, many more

Ethel Merman left definitive performances of the first two in the films 'There's No Business Like Show Business' and interpolated into 'Call Me Madam' and I heard Ethel sing 'Alexander's Ragtime Band' live in a London TV studio and thought I had died and gone to heaven!

There was a time when I was going to see a number of one-woman shows of stars like Barbara Cook, Bernadette Peters, etc, and it seemed that every single one of them included 'I love a piano' – and why not?!

And I am also a sucker for Berlin's early romantic ballads, mostly waltzes:
When I lost you
Always
All alone
What'll I do?
A pretty girl is like a melody
How deep is the ocean?

And of course his 'copyright' on Christmas ('White Christmas'), Easter ('Easter Parade') and even the USA ('God bless America') are unique achievements!

I've just Googled Mr Berlin and spotted some wonderful songs that Marilyn Monroe sang in her own inimitable way:
Lazy
After you get what you want
Heat wave

As much as I am enjoying '42nd Street', I have to admit that it is all rather at a single pitch (nothing wrong with 40 people tap dancing to Warren/Dubin songs) I thought the stage version of 'Top Hat' with all those Berlin songs was a very superior example of a musical, not only with wonderful songs and dances, but some hilarious farce, especially in the second act. I didn't expect that the humour of the original film involving those splendid Hollywood character actors could be caught so perfectly, but it sure was.

So it seems to me that Berlin sits in something of a different category from Kern, Rodgers, Porter and Gershwin in that he wrote only a relatively small number of musical comedies but also contributed to vaudeville shows and revues and worked very much as a jobbing Tin Pan Alley songwriter. So for me, I will go along with Jerome Kern's famous remark: 'Irving Berlin has no place in American music – he IS American music!'

[tmesis]

I'm in awe that you've seen Merman live! I too though Top Hat excellent, although Tom Chambers was a bit wooden acting-wise (great dancing and his singing was OK) but it really does work as stage musical, better than the recent stage version of High Society at the Old Vic.

I too love a lot of the early stuff too; l think I've given the wrong impression that a song has to have some clever technical feature for me to like/admire it, but I am a sucker for 'the art that conceals art.'

Of the earlier stuff I really like 'I love a piano.' This I heard live sung and played by Michael Feinstein in London a few years back. Guesting on the same evening was Julian Ovenden with whom he sang a duet; that was my died and gone to heaven moment!

[tonyloco]

Sept 19, 2017 15:56:34 GMT tmesis said:

Of the earlier stuff I really like 'I love a piano.' This I heard live sung and played by Michael Feinstein in London a few years back. Guesting on the same evening was Julian Ovenden with whom he sang a duet; that was my died and gone to heaven moment!

Where and when did you hear Michael Feinstein in London? I am familiar with his early recordings but for the life of me I cannot remember whether or not I ever saw him live. I used to go regularly to Pizza on the Park for a few years to see various singers but they were mostly elderly females as well of course as Richard Rodney Bennett.

[tmesis]

It was November 2013 at the Palace Theatre. It was when The Commitments musical was running there (on a night off, as it were) part of the London Festival of Cabaret, which got little publicity.

I particularly like his earlier recordings, his later, over produced ones not so much. Would have loved to see him at Algonquin in his early years; he's at his best when it's just him and a piano. I like that he has great respect for the material he sings.

His two books are fascinating too; one mainly autobiographical, with lots about his time with Ira and the other more generally about the Gershwins.

[Mr Snow]

I saw Michael Fienstein at the Hackney Empire in a concert for R2, 3 or 4 years ago. Full Orchestra and Joe Stilgoe as support.

His voice was a lot stronger than I previously realized and overall he was a good entertainer.


Pizza on the Park. Steve Ross and Andrea Marcovicci - might take this back to the other thread.

[tmesis]

Sept 20, 2017 6:04:07 GMT Mr Snow said:

Full Orchestra and Joe Stilgoe as support.

Joe Stilgoe is terrific. Would love to see him with Claire Martin. He was the best thing about the Old Vic High Society.

[tonyloco]

Ah! In November 2013 I was desperately house-hunting and totally oblivious to what was happening in the world of cabaret or theatre. And I have tended to be very inconsistent in how assiduously I have kept up with these things. For example, I attended the entire series of one-person shows at the Jermyn Street Theatre fairly recently (and had a great time) although it had been years since I had been to any others, apart from Eartha Kitt at the Shaw. The mention of Michael Feinstein at the Hackney Empire does ring a bell, the HE being one of my spiritual homes, so I probably knew about it but was in no mood to get out and see it. But I seem to be taking this discussion a bit off thread as we haven't discussed Gershwin or Rodgers yet.

Now come on Mr Snow. It's time we heard your comments on the Great American Songbook. As much as we will readily jump in to talk about Pizza on the Park, Steve Ross, Claire Martin et al (Jolson?) we must not get too diverted from the title of this thread!

[Mr Snow]

What can I add? You two are delivering a masterclass. Perhaps I can MC at your next gig?

Unfortunately, I’ve been too lazy to learn to play an instrument and so my experience is so limited compared to yours. I can only imagine the joy in going through those changes as often as I liked and feeling them for myself ...How strange, the change from…

What do you make of the classic text on the subject?

www.amazon.com/American-Popular-Song-Innovators-1900-1950/dp/0195014456
Alec Wilder was a gifted songwriter himself and apparently quite an oddball associate of the Rat Pack.

Despite not understanding much I’ve read it cover to cover. It has at least given me a clue as to why the songs endure and the subtle techniques that made each one special. It is often claimed that Jazz is America’s great gift to the world, but I’m not so sure.
I also have pretty much all the collected lyrics with Ira Gershwin’s and Sondheim’s the two with the real insight.


I hope you’ll get round to Bernstein. Benny Green could never play any of his songs without hinting he was a bit square, not Jazz if you like. For years, I bought that line based on WSS. But popular song is a broad church and I now think of Candide as one of the great pieces and just loved On the Town this summer. I wish I’d tuned into him sooner and there’s more I’ve yet to discover.

Carry on please gentlemen I’ve been very busy but will try and keep up!


PS Joe Stilgoe at Brasserie Zedel 19th October. Works outing anyone?
(Anyone know about Paul Ryan and Kenny Clayton who are playing a selection of Great American Songs on the 19th?)

[tonyloco]

Welcome Mr Snow to the discussion! I will be interested to see how tmesis responds to your comments but here are a few personal thoughts of mine:

Regarding playing an instrument, I was born with a God-given gift of being able to play popular songs on the piano right from when I was able to sit at a keyboard. It began with my being able to pick out tunes with one finger and then after a few lessons at the Shefte College of Music in Sydney when I was in my early teens, I learned all the basic chords and was able to play songs with both hands – and transpose easily! I did put in some effort to learn to sight read and actually played some Chopin Waltzes at a public concert in the Sydey Conservatorium! I also have a gift for accompanying, which has stood me in good stead with music hall and variety. I am boasting about all this because I have come to the conclusion that no amount of teaching or practice will turn a person into a good performer on any instrument if there is not already some kind of instinctive talent to start with.

I am not familiar with Alec Wilder's book but I have read some others in the past although I am not entirely convinced that one can actually analyse various songs to explain why they are as good as they are. Again, I think this is a God-given gift and composers like Gershwin, Rodgers, Berlin, Porter and Kern just had the gift! If I may digress a little, the song 'Daisy Bell' written in 1892 by Harry Dacre was a hit in both the UK and in the USA (with the difference being in 'a bicycle built for two' and 'a bicycle made for two') but it is hardly a sophisticated melody or a clever lyric. Yet it has endured down the years and I understand that children in schools today in Hackney know it and can sing along with it! So who knows what makes a song great?!

I agree with what you say about the best lyric writers, but all the others in that field were of course providing lyrics as required for the job in hand, at which they were all highly adept. Even the most natural and straightforward, Irving Berlin, sometimes reached the heights IMHO.

I think Bernstein is somewhat different from the others we are discussing. He was first and foremost a classical composer who also loved musical theatre. As we know, 'On the Town' developed from the score he wrote for the American Ballet Theatre for a ballet called 'Fancy Free' and then he continued along the road with other musicals, but not all of them were successful apart from 'West Side Story' which is of course one of the very greats. And I think Benny Green may well have a point in that none of Bernstein's 'songs' ever became estabished as popular hits, not even those from 'West Side Story', although a few of them are instantly recongised like 'New York, New York', 'Maria' and 'Tonight'.

Sorry to be a party pooper, but I will not be coming to Brasserie Zedel on 19 October although it might turn out to be a good night, but thanks for the suggestion.

TL

[Dawnstar]

Sept 18, 2017 22:53:50 GMT tonyloco said:

Dawnstar: I have just dug out my review of 'The New Yorkers' and I see it was mainly a zany comedy and a showcase for Jimmy Durante although it did have a couple of strong Porter songs like 'I happen to like New York' and 'Take me back to Manhattan' as well as 'love for sale' but those two songs I already knew from other places like the Cole Porter revue called 'Cole' at the Mermaid and 'A Swell Party'. The other songs have mostly been forgotten although 'I'm getting myself ready for you' survives in the stage version of 'High Society'.

Now you mention it, I do remember "I Happen To Like New York" but "Take Me Back To Manhatten" is not ringing any bells in my memory.

Sept 19, 2017 15:12:12 GMT tonyloco said:

I thought the stage version of 'Top Hat' with all those Berlin songs was a very superior example of a musical, not only with wonderful songs and dances, but some hilarious farce, especially in the second act. I didn't expect that the humour of the original film involving those splendid Hollywood character actors could be caught so perfectly, but it sure was.

I adored the stage version of Top Hat. In fact, given it was expanded for the stage, I now can't watch the film without missing the scenes & songs that were added for the stage version. I suppose that, given the size of the Berlin song catalogue, it must have been fairly easy to find plenty of other songs to add.

Sept 19, 2017 15:56:34 GMT tmesis said:

I'm in awe that you've seen Merman live! I too though Top Hat excellent, although Tom Chambers was a bit wooden acting-wise (great dancing and his singing was OK) but it really does work as stage musical, better than the recent stage version of High Society at the Old Vic.

Seconding the Merman awe! That's interesting, I found Tom Chambers weakest in singing rather than acting. I bought the cast recording when it was released but have rarely listened to it as I don't find his voice very pleasant when it's audio-only. I ended up far preferring his understudy, Alan Burkitt, who then took the lead for the second tour.

I'm afraid I totally lack the musical knowledge to contribute to the more technical parts of this thread but I'm finding them interesting to read.

[tmesis]

Mr Snow,  I've read the Alec Wilder book (every word!) and actually found it quite disappointing. He seems to dislike some pretty classic songs and to have a particular downer on Gershwin, mainly for using too many repeated notes.

Speaking of Gershwin....

I mentioned at the top of the thread some of my favourites but just a few (disconnected) thoughts...

- It really is a tragedy he died at 38, what could he have achieved?

- He was really fortunate to have, as a brother, such a talented lyricist.

- His musical style is so easy to recognise and yet hard to sum up, clever use of syncopation and stressing unexpected notes. One thing I've noticed, but not seen commented upon, is specifically ending phrases with the most distinctive notes of the blues scale.  A case in point is The man I love. Even though in E flat, nearly all of it's early, short phrases ends on a blues note. The lovely Somebody loves Me at the start, on the word 'who', in the phrase 'I wonder who?' has a delicious flattened third that really defines the song. Of course loads of other greats love a blue note here and there,  but it usually decorates the middle of a phrase.

- Love Feinstein's early Gershwin recordings - there's a brilliant duet with Rosemary Clooney on 'Isn't it a pity.'

- I've got all of the Nonesuch recordings of his musicals with the original orchestrations, Pardon my English, Lady be good etc. Highly recommended.

- Much as I enjoy Ella's singing in her Gershwin song series, I now find Riddle's orchestrations a bit overblown, and he buggers around too much with the great man's harmonies. (Generally I'm a massive Riddle fan.) Also many of the songs are too slow.

- Carol Kidd has a really good Gershwin CD in Nice Work.

- Although way over the top, I love Sarah Vaughan's CD with LA Phil and Tilson Thomas.

[Mr Snow]

Sarah Vaughan sings Gershwin. I have it on a compilation, is it from the CD you reference?




Oooooooooooooooooooh oh oh!

[tonyloco]

Yes, that youtube version is right OTT, although very impressive! Now here's a funny thing about that song. One of my music hall ladies wanted to do it but I didn't have a sheet copy with the verse, so I found a recording by somebody famous and took down the verse by ear and we performed it very successfully. Imagine my surprise when I later discovered that the verse I found was not Gershwin's original but something totally different. I can't remember the details but the recording may have been by Judy Garland, in which case the new verse might well have been by Roger Eden. Sorry this is such an incomplete anecdote but since my recent house move I no longer have access to much of my old reference material (CDs, LPs, music, etc) but the point of my telling it is that Gershwin's original verse is really rather tricky, or perhaps I should say clever, and the new one I found was a lot simpler!

And we mustn't forget that Gershwin's first big success was 'Swannee', written in 1919 which could hardly have been more different that the songs he was to write later. I guess we can see 'Swannee' in the vaudeville style of George M. Cohan or the early Irving Berlin, but what a smash hit to start his career!

[tmesis]

Sept 21, 2017 5:52:48 GMT Mr Snow said:

Sarah Vaughan sings Gershwin. I have it on a compilation, is it from the CD you reference?




Oooooooooooooooooooh oh oh!

The CD is 'Gershwin Live!' On CBS. There are a number of (very cheap) second hand copies on amazon.

[tmesis]

Just thought of another Gershwin song where the first phrase ends on a blue note 'Stairway to Paradise,' on the 'new song every day' bit. I really love this song, it has a terrific modulating verse.