3,468 posts
|
Post by ceebee on Apr 23, 2021 19:14:43 GMT
I'll take this album though as a consolation prize. Sounds great! I've pre-ordered the CD. (Wonder if will actually be realised in advance of the repeatedly put back Cinderella album). Reminds me of that Phantasia thing they did when Woman in White came out. Was actually slightly disappointed by that so hopefully this will be better. Also CD4 of Unmasked they described various instrumentals as "2018 Orchestral suites" but in fact they were merely Overtures and Entreactes stapled together. I've pre-ordered too - tbh after the last year, I'm grateful for anything new or that attempts to offer us fresh hope for what lies ahead. And I do include Phantom in that, regardless of the orchestra size. I accept it's not going to be to everybody's liking, but many said the same about the new Les Mis and actually it turned out to be rather good and refreshing. I'm still waiting on the update for first night tickets and have everything crossed that there will be a straight transfer over to the new date for those who booked. Preferably in the same seats, given that they were situated under the "will it or won't it fall" chandelier a few rows back from the now rather more spacious orchestra pit. |
|
|
|
Post by danb on Apr 23, 2021 19:21:34 GMT
I wonder what sort of reductions have been made FOH, as surely that’s a much bigger expense than 30 years ago with the introduction of the minimum wage etc?
Ultimately, if people feel so strongly about it they won’t attend the show any more and it will die a death.
|
|
3,468 posts
|
Post by ceebee on Apr 23, 2021 19:29:07 GMT
Here's a question (and I'm not trolling the folk who crave the original production, orchestra etc)... What if, just what if, the new production happens to be sensationally brilliant with enhancements and touches that simply couldn't be achieved in the old production? What if the sound quality surpasses the previous sound quality? (I'm really curious about this aspect as the upgraded sound was incredibly good when it was put in.) What if the clunky bits that we all knew were a bit cheesy and past their sell-by-date get improved by better staging or effects? What if the producers surprise everybody by giving London something truly superb, with a swelling sound that defies the reduction in orchestra? It might seem fanciful, but I really can't see them slaying the golden goose. Just plucking it, perhaps (no harp pun intended).
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 19:49:39 GMT
Here's a question (and I'm not trolling the folk who crave the original production, orchestra etc)... What if, just what if, the new production happens to be sensationally brilliant with enhancements and touches that simply couldn't be achieved in the old production? What if the sound quality surpasses the previous sound quality? (I'm really curious about this aspect as the upgraded sound was incredibly good when it was put in.) What if the clunky bits that we all knew were a bit cheesy and past their sell-by-date get improved by better staging or effects? What if the producers surprise everybody by giving London something truly superb, with a swelling sound that defies the reduction in orchestra? It might seem fanciful, but I really can't see them slaying the golden goose. Just plucking it, perhaps (no harp pun intended). This is totally where I’m at. So excited to see what it’s like :-) Just wish they’d e-mail re rescheduled tickets. Every day they don’t makes me think they’ll postpone yet again! |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2021 20:17:00 GMT
The show might be a huge success because in fairness there’s only one way to go, it can’t improve capacity wise. It’s always been near full. Perhaps it will live on the spectre of the original.
Phantom Never Dies and I hope for the remaining crew it doesn’t die.
My issue since the UK 2012 tour has always been about the manner in which it has been sold as something better or too difficult to tour in the 21st Century.
Let’s not pretend this bastardised version of the original can be anyway compared to what Maria Bjornson and Hal Prince created.
The original toured the world I remember it had a sit down in Dublin 1998 in a venue with 6,300 capacity expected to take in £5m sold out for its run.
However long live Phantom West End, however, I look forward to travelling to see non-replica productions as I have done before. And I will remember with respect the genius of Maria Bjornson and Hal Prince.
In art if you can’t invent or be original then what is art?
|
|
|
|
Post by inthenose on Apr 23, 2021 21:19:31 GMT
Here's a question (and I'm not trolling the folk who crave the original production, orchestra etc)... What if, just what if, the new production happens to be sensationally brilliant with enhancements and touches that simply couldn't be achieved in the old production? What if the sound quality surpasses the previous sound quality? (I'm really curious about this aspect as the upgraded sound was incredibly good when it was put in.) What if the clunky bits that we all knew were a bit cheesy and past their sell-by-date get improved by better staging or effects? What if the producers surprise everybody by giving London something truly superb, with a swelling sound that defies the reduction in orchestra? It might seem fanciful, but I really can't see them slaying the golden goose. Just plucking it, perhaps (no harp pun intended). What is going into Her Majesty's Theatre is the 2020 UK touring production (bit.ly/3vluVtT). Some have already seen it at the Leicester Curve, before it closed prematurely due to Covid. They're doing exactly what they did with the 2014 Miss Saigon West End Revival. That production had the sets and creative team, same arrangements and orchestra size as the downsized Second UK Tour. The production was smaller so as to fit into medium sized regional houses, and increase the number of venues it could play. The First UK Tour only played the largest houses in the country due to its size. The production was therefore ready to transfer into town, and when that became unprofitable, to go straight back out on tour with barely any adjustments. This situation is identical to the current state of Phantom. The new West End Phantom has the same creative team as the 2020 UK tour. (bit.ly/32Gw0zQ and bit.ly/2S1HSdR). Note that it was prominently advertised in the second link with a half page promotional image describing the production as "The Brilliant Original On Tour". The production had an orchestra of 14, had several set pieces missing/changed and a whole new creative team. (bit.ly/2QPqico). All of which match publicly available information about the new West End production. Whilst I appreciate and respect your positivity no end, it is very hard to be blindly optimistic when every change they've announced is a negative one without an accompanying positive. Negative: The orchestra has been cut from 27 to 14. This has led to outrage from many in the theatre community and on social media. (bit.ly/3sMqDtB, bit.ly/3gw76LD) Positive: Negative: Set pieces synonymous with the show have been altered purely for self benefitting commercial reasons, which are of no interest or concern to the paying customer. These include the chandelier, recycled from the 2012 UK Tour (doesn't rise above the audience, starts in position on the ceiling, doesn't land on the stage), angel statue (completely missing, the Phantom now appears from behind a giant statue of a Pegasus, and proscenium decoration (all missing). Positive: More possibility of the show touring smaller regional venues when it closes in the West End? Maybe that's a long term positive to allow more people to see the show at their local. The sound design you mention is the closest thing to something worth getting excited about (offset by the smaller orchestra, natch). This review; (https://bit.ly/3vjY1tB) mentions something that was discussed here (bit.ly/3vdSggJ), with the Phantom's voice making better use of surround sound in the auditorium. In 2008, the show closed for four performances to upgrade the sound system (bit.ly/3ngiHzD); "The new surround sound system will consist of over ten kilometres of cable, 120 speakers placed throughout the auditorium and a digital sound desk that will make the largest orchestra in the West End and 40-strong cast sound more powerful than ever before." The Leicester Curve review above mentions; "And it takes 52 surround speakers positioned around the auditorium to create a sense of a ghostly spirit which could be talking from anywhere." This also reflects the Phantom "being everywhere" effect the new production is aiming for. Don't be surprised to see more doubles popping up on the balcony, and whatnot. It is very unlikely the Phantom will appear on the catwalk of the pros now, as the entire false pros has been replaced with the touring set, which didn't have a catwalk. He also didn't do this on the tour, for obvious reasons. The clunky and cheesy bits you refer to, which were screaming out for change... weren't. ALL of the naffest bits are intact. The fireballs and yes, the forsaken player piano in the Don Juan Rehearsal scene are identical. The touring production used drapes very sparingly, swapping them out for painted flats. Very little if any projection was added though, thankfully. I feel if you were happy with the 2020 Tour, and felt it was equal to or superior than the West End, you'll be fine. |
|
|
|
Post by danb on Apr 24, 2021 4:59:59 GMT
...and round and round we go.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 10:44:52 GMT
...and round and round we go. No need to be condescending. If you don't want the discussion to continue feel free to pick another thread. One of my issues with the 2020 (non)Touring Production was that it was relit too brightly, in part a result of the change from Tungsten lighting sources to LED. Although that change was necessary (and due in London for longevity) the lighting re-design was cumbersome, distracted heavily at times and certain darker scenes felt over exposed. The vulnerability and romance of the plot was reduced. The production as a whole felt less honest to the era in which it is set and more of a concert or tribute. The same goes for the sound. The inherent issue with upgrading to shiny new, super, digital audio system is that it every element is exhibited in finer detail. There's only so much reverb you can put on one violin before its swallowed up into it's own ether. If this is bigger, brighter, better than the original to you, fine, but to me this is a pale imitation and a very sad reduction passed off, neither brilliant nor original. www.dropbox.com/s/mitem1jckbwkw79/ahem.mp3?dl=0(for clarity, that is the 14 piece orchestration) In my opinion. |
|
|
|
Post by danb on Apr 24, 2021 12:24:12 GMT
‘ In my opinion’
That’s all this thread is. Theorising about facts, guesses and rumours without seeing the actual final product. Sure it might be based on an existing tour but thats not to say it won’t look better in situ and with a different cast. By all means slate it once it’s open, but until then whats wrong with having a bit of hope? (Not a question or invitation for the same people to list the same facts again btw). Besides I hear Cam Mac has picked up a couple of lovely Gobo’s left over from Dick Whittington on ebay. Expect the sewer/underground lair vibe to be dialled up to 10!
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 13:17:28 GMT
‘ In my opinion’ That’s all this thread is. Theorising about facts, guesses and rumours without seeing the actual final product. Sure it might be based on an existing tour but thats not to say it won’t look better in situ and with a different cast. By all means slate it once it’s open, but until then whats wrong with having a bit of hope? (Not a question or invitation for the same people to list the same facts again btw). Besides I hear Cam Mac has picked up a couple of lovely Gobo’s left over from Dick Whittington on ebay. Expect the sewer/underground lair vibe to be dialled up to 10! Well I mean, I did give you an actual definitive example for discussion, the orchestration. There's no 'theorising' there. No 'hope' required (except that they reverse the decision). That's what London's getting. We could all lie down and just take the fisting, or we could be vocal and make the point that, no, the production deserves better. The newly-redundant musicians deserve better. The Audiences (new and returning) deserve the same respect they've been given for the past 3 decades. |
|
|
|
Post by danb on Apr 24, 2021 15:52:41 GMT
‘ (Not a question or invitation for the same people to list the same facts again btw). |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 15:58:03 GMT
‘ In my opinion’ That’s all this thread is. Theorising about facts, guesses and rumours without seeing the actual final product. Sure it might be based on an existing tour but thats not to say it won’t look better in situ and with a different cast. By all means slate it once it’s open, but until then whats wrong with having a bit of hope? (Not a question or invitation for the same people to list the same facts again btw). Besides I hear Cam Mac has picked up a couple of lovely Gobo’s left over from Dick Whittington on ebay. Expect the sewer/underground lair vibe to be dialled up to 10! Exactly this. Fun and current though "shocked and appalled" culture is, surely it's more sensible to see it before writing it off! |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 15:58:41 GMT
‘ In my opinion’ That’s all this thread is. Theorising about facts, guesses and rumours without seeing the actual final product. Sure it might be based on an existing tour but thats not to say it won’t look better in situ and with a different cast. By all means slate it once it’s open, but until then whats wrong with having a bit of hope? (Not a question or invitation for the same people to list the same facts again btw). Besides I hear Cam Mac has picked up a couple of lovely Gobo’s left over from Dick Whittington on ebay. Expect the sewer/underground lair vibe to be dialled up to 10! Well I mean, I did give you an actual definitive example for discussion, the orchestration. There's no 'theorising' there. No 'hope' required (except that they reverse the decision). That's what London's getting. We could all lie down and just take the fisting, or we could be vocal and make the point that, no, the production deserves better. The newly-redundant musicians deserve better. The Audiences (new and returning) deserve the same respect they've been given for the past 3 decades. That is quite the expression! Are you going to go and see it? |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 16:01:14 GMT
‘ (Not a question or invitation for the same people to list the same facts again btw). When does Groundhog Day make it's triumphant return to the Old Vic again lol?! |
|
|
|
Post by danb on Apr 24, 2021 16:20:00 GMT
When does Groundhog Day make it's triumphant return to the Old Vic again lol?! |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 16:27:59 GMT
Nobody is slating it.
People are saying multiple cuts have taken place which devalue the original creative concept.
You don’t need to be a genius to understand this.
I don’t need to see this re-imagined Phantom because I have seen wonderful performances of same on Broadway, the West End and original tours. I don’t need to hear a reduced orchestra because I have heard a wonderful full orchestra. I don’t need to see a static chandelier when I’ve seen a flying one.
I can remember the original creative and travel to see new original interpretations not watered down theme park attractions.
Instead I can spend my money on productions like the Gothenburg Opera Phantom which had stunning reimagined sets and I believe an 86 piece orchestra.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 16:32:00 GMT
Nobody is slating it. People are saying multiple cuts have taken place which devalue the original creative concept. You don’t need to be a genius to understand this. I don’t need to see this re-imagined Phantom because I have seen wonderful performances of same on Broadway, the West End and original tours. I don’t need to hear a reduced orchestra because I have heard a wonderful full orchestra. I don’t need to see a static chandelier when I’ve seen a flying one. I can remember the original creative and travel to see new original interpretations not watered down theme park attractions. Instead I can spend my money on productions like the Gothenburg Opera Phantom which had stunning reimagined sets and I believe an 86 piece orchestra. Thanks Shirley. It is interesting to hear what all the guys most upset re what ALW/CM have changed plan to do about their future Phantom viewing :-) |
|
19,735 posts
|
Post by BurlyBeaR on Apr 24, 2021 17:02:03 GMT
‘ In my opinion’ That’s all this thread is. Theorising about facts, guesses and rumours without seeing the actual final product. Sure it might be based on an existing tour but thats not to say it won’t look better in situ and with a different cast. By all means slate it once it’s open, but until then whats wrong with having a bit of hope? (Not a question or invitation for the same people to list the same facts again btw). Besides I hear Cam Mac has picked up a couple of lovely Gobo’s left over from Dick Whittington on ebay. Expect the sewer/underground lair vibe to be dialled up to 10! We could all lie down and just take the fisting  |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 17:35:01 GMT
Nobody is slating it. People are saying multiple cuts have taken place which devalue the original creative concept. You don’t need to be a genius to understand this. I don’t need to see this re-imagined Phantom because I have seen wonderful performances of same on Broadway, the West End and original tours. I don’t need to hear a reduced orchestra because I have heard a wonderful full orchestra. I don’t need to see a static chandelier when I’ve seen a flying one. I can remember the original creative and travel to see new original interpretations not watered down theme park attractions. Instead I can spend my money on productions like the Gothenburg Opera Phantom which had stunning reimagined sets and I believe an 86 piece orchestra. Thanks Shirley. It is interesting to hear what all the guys most upset re what ALW/CM have changed plan to do about their future Phantom viewing :-) You misunderstand analysis for emotion. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 17:44:14 GMT
Thanks Shirley. It is interesting to hear what all the guys most upset re what ALW/CM have changed plan to do about their future Phantom viewing :-) You misunderstand analysis for emotion. Not at all. Emotion is first and foremost in response to musical theatre. |
|
1,481 posts
|
Post by steve10086 on Apr 24, 2021 17:49:14 GMT
‘ (Not a question or invitation for the same people to list the same facts again btw). Damn, did I miss the memo putting ‘danb’ in charge?! |
|
|
|
Post by inthenose on Apr 24, 2021 17:52:41 GMT
Damn, did I miss the memo putting ‘danb’ in charge?! No discussion on the discussion board please, unless everyone is in 100% agreement. |
|
1,481 posts
|
Post by steve10086 on Apr 24, 2021 17:54:36 GMT
Damn, did I miss the memo putting ‘danb’ in charge?! Right, I’m out now. That’s just childish & pathetic. Why make the same point ad infinitum when nothing has changed. Grow the hell up. Because people are entitled to do so, it’s a discussion board. I don’t see that one person gets to decide when discussion is over. That sounds childish to me. |
|
|
|
Post by danb on Apr 24, 2021 17:59:14 GMT
Right, I’m out now. That’s just childish & pathetic. Why make the same point ad infinitum when nothing has changed. Grow the hell up. Because people are entitled to do so, it’s a discussion board. I don’t see that one person gets to decide when discussion is over. That sounds childish to me. That’s fine Steve. Thanks for the feedback. |
|
|
|
Post by inthenose on Apr 24, 2021 18:03:43 GMT
Damn, did I miss the memo putting ‘danb’ in charge?! Right, I’m out now. That’s just childish & pathetic. Why make the same point ad infinitum when nothing has changed. Grow the hell up. In fairness, the chat really doesn't need a chairperson, and if people are being offensive we trust in the mods we have to handle it. It's not up to us to stop because you post pass agg replies telling us to. You don't agree, that's fine. If we stopped discussing things, it wouldn't be a discussion board. I'm pretty sure Oleanna broke exactly what would (and has) happened last April or so. Yet we are still discussing it because it's interesting and means a lot to those people who join the debate, or very little and that's fine too. Now let's settle down and have a cup of tea. |
|
