Time to say goodbye? Unclog these theatres!

[marob]

I’ve said it before, but good as Les Mis and Phantom are, I don’t think any show is good enough that it should still be going after nearly 40 years. And there’s something not quite right when the two longest running plays are The Mousetrap and a show that is loosely a parody of The Mousetrap.

[Jon]

Nov 12, 2024 17:13:12 GMT aspieandy said:

Fwiw, i see the theatre discussed here as a 'gateway' into theatre and the arts for everyone, especially children. Great option for parents, great focal point for family visits to the capital (pre-teens and teens): get 'em early.


afaik, the massive 1,500-seater at Olympia is still due to open next year - same size as Sadlers Wells.

also, the new Capital Theatre at Westfield, Shepherd’s Bush will have 600+. There's that new one at King's Cross that keeps getting used for other things. The new Sadlers Wells at the other Westfield (Stratford) makes it 3,000 new seats already.

possible to argue the WE is full, nothing wrong with using public transport better. 

Can fly around easily enough on the Elizabeth Line, Overground, etc. Not the 1990s anymore, not even the 2010s. Apps likke Citymapper make it so easy.

Starlight Express and Guys and Dolls proved very successfully that not being in the West End is not a hindrance. People will travel outside the centre if they want to see a show. 

[Phantom of London]

The Olympia theatre will be a nightmare to get to.

North London doesn’t have any touring theatre Venus like South does; for example Bromley, Dartford, Wimbledon or Richmond.

[Jon]

Nov 12, 2024 17:37:39 GMT Phantom of London said:

The Olympia theatre will be a nightmare to get to.

North London doesn’t have any touring theatre Venus like South does; for example Bromley, Dartford, Wimbledon or Richmond.[span style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);font-size:10pt;"

The Olympia is next to a London Overground station and only a short walk or bus from Hammersmith station. Not much of a hassle.

[aspieandy]

Nov 12, 2024 17:37:39 GMT Phantom of London said:

The Olympia theatre will be a nightmare to get to.

as well as the 1,500-seater:

"The redevelopment of the Olympia in West London is, in a word, grand. A new 4,000-person music arena, a theatre, hotels, and 30 bars / restaurants."

[hubertmcqueen]

The problem is that, as knowledgeable and passionate as we are, we’re a minority yelling into a void. And with that we’re prone to become a little bit snooty about audiences. It’s partly market forces: if people are booking in huge numbers then it’s an act of mad self-sabotage to close a show (and as has already been said costs a lot of people a job). Furthermore if a lot of people are booking for something then it means a lot of people want to see it. No matter how terrible we may think it is, with our experience or knowledge etc… we are not gatekeepers and it would be unpardonable to demand something that people want to see close just because we don’t think it’s good art.

The argument that long-runners are blocking access to other, better shows is fair but seems to me a bit naive. Were, for example, Mamma Mia to close in favour of Shucked, I can’t be convinced for a second that enthusiastic theatregoers would simply happily book for Shucked instead. It also helps perpetuate the idea that a piece of work is only successful or artistically relevant if it has a run in The West End. Granted, it means that more people might see it but the extension of that argument is…long runners.

[aspieandy]

Nov 12, 2024 17:46:39 GMT Jon said:

The Olympia is next to a London Overground station and only a short walk or bus from Hammersmith station. Not much of a hassle.

also, Olympia is a tube station, a branch on the District Line next to Earls Court.

It's not as if the developers and local authority won't have considered the internets  "nightmare".

[erik24601]

Nov 12, 2024 17:29:49 GMT marob said:

I’ve said it before, but good as Les Mis and Phantom are, I don’t think any show is good enough that it should still be going after nearly 40 years. 

Unless you've never seen them before and want to experience the same thing that thousands/(millions?) of people have before for the first time. 

[marob]

Nov 12, 2024 17:34:57 GMT Jon said:

Nov 12, 2024 17:13:12 GMT aspieandy said:

Fwiw, i see the theatre discussed here as a 'gateway' into theatre and the arts for everyone, especially children. Great option for parents, great focal point for family visits to the capital (pre-teens and teens): get 'em early.


afaik, the massive 1,500-seater at Olympia is still due to open next year - same size as Sadlers Wells.

also, the new Capital Theatre at Westfield, Shepherd’s Bush will have 600+. There's that new one at King's Cross that keeps getting used for other things. The new Sadlers Wells at the other Westfield (Stratford) makes it 3,000 new seats already.

possible to argue the WE is full, nothing wrong with using public transport better. 

Can fly around easily enough on the Elizabeth Line, Overground, etc. Not the 1990s anymore, not even the 2010s. Apps likke Citymapper make it so easy.

Starlight Express and Guys and Dolls proved very successfully that not being in the West End is not a hindrance. People will travel outside the centre if they want to see a show. 

I believe The Bridge is only 2 stops from Waterloo though, same as it is to Charing Cross, so it’s hardly out in the sticks.

But even so, before Guys and Dolls most of their productions struggled, even with runs of only a few months. I’ve never seen an audience just give up on a show like the one set on a farm. So many walkouts.

[Jon]

Nov 12, 2024 17:49:47 GMT aspieandy said:

Nov 12, 2024 17:46:39 GMT Jon said:

The Olympia is next to a London Overground station and only a short walk or bus from Hammersmith station. Not much of a hassle.

Olympia is a tube station, a branch on the District Line next to Earls Court.

The District Line branch to Olympics only gets a limited service on weekends and whenever there is an event at Olympia. The vast majority of the services is from London Overground. 

[erik24601]

Dare I say it, admins, should this be moved to General Chat?

[aspieandy]

Yep from Euston, Kings Cross/ St P, or from Claphm Junction direction - 15-mins either way.

[christya]

On a personal level, I'd be happy to see Lion King go. I was incredibly disappointed with it - beautiful music and the first few minutes were great, but after that I was bored and felt like half the cast was too. But in general I don't think something having run for a long time is a good enough reason to get rid of it. 'New' doesn't always sell as well.

[anxiousoctopus]

Nov 12, 2024 9:31:06 GMT Someone in a tree said:

Can we also evict the Mousetrap ?

I really enjoy the Mousetrap, there is a reason it’s still there

[Phantom of London]

Nov 12, 2024 17:49:47 GMT aspieandy said:

Nov 12, 2024 17:46:39 GMT Jon said:

The Olympia is next to a London Overground station and only a short walk or bus from Hammersmith station. Not much of a hassle.

also, Olympia is a tube station, a branch on the District Line next to Earls Court.

It's not as if the developers and local authority won't have considered the internets  "nightmare".

Kensington Olympia isn’t really served well by London Underground, think it only now runs only at Weekends. I wouldn’t be surprised if London Underground jettisoned the service, as it causes operational management headaches.

It is still a tough place to get to from zone 1, you need to allow at least 40 minutes.

[partytentdown]

Surprised to see so many here campaigning for the demise of the shows that are essentially the backbone of the West End theatre industry. The shows that got many of us interested or employed in the industry in the first place. What do you think the alternatives would be? I suspect a lot of cheaply produced shows that would last 1 or 2 years max before being replaced by more of the same. Do we want a West End full of Mrs Doubtfires and Devil Wears Pradas that provide a sickly sweet hit for a year or two then fizzle out? Of course I want to see the development of new and interesting shows, but I do believe there is a place for all sorts in the West End. Big, long runners that please families, tourists, schools etc, a place for mainstream but new shows that run for a while, and a place for more artistic, experimental work. That is why London is so great, surely? We can have it all and we can choose what we see and support.

[max]

I don't want them to close, but it could be a positive benefit all round if some of the long-runners moved into 'event spaces' - no loss of performers' jobs, and potentially a lot more jobs and revenue created by a 'stay the whole day for the experience' vibe. The theme park / tourist attraction angle fully embraced. Perhaps if the site-specific New York 'Phantom...' works, that would be a way for London to go. Though with 'Mamma Mia' and 'Mamma Mia, The Party' we've got both rather than one swapped for the other.

'The Lion King' is already The Rainforest Cafe with songs. I'm being unfair but can never forget the cloth that came down after the great (but dramatically isolated) opening watering hole sequence, and it being referred to by some Muskrat or whatever as looking 'like an IKEA shower curtain'. Way to kill the magic. Still don't know if that was scripted or ad libbed.

[normasturban]

The long runners are the backbone of the theatre world. They keep so many people in employment in a challenging industry and are a perfect gateway for new generations of theatregoers, creatives, casts and crew.

[pineapple4you]

I'm all here for the long runners as they are the backbone of the West End whether you like it or not. This is as long as they are still maintaining the same energy and punch as when they opened (which some aren't on recent visits).

What I could do without though is their louder voices in marketing compared to new productions. It's rather dull seeing the same shows trotted out for things like "Big Night of Musicals" when I'm sure even the most general public is familiar with "I Dreamed a Dream" or "When I Grow Up". These shows have less at steak compared to new kids on the block and therefore shouldn't hog the limited media limelight.

[partytentdown]

Nov 12, 2024 20:00:06 GMT max said:

I don't want them to close, but it could be a positive benefit all round if some of the long-runners moved into 'event spaces' - no loss of performers' jobs, and potentially a lot more jobs and revenue created by a 'stay the whole day for the experience' vibe. The theme park / tourist attraction angle fully embraced. Perhaps if the site-specific New York 'Phantom...' works, that would be a way for London to go. Though with 'Mamma Mia' and 'Mamma Mia, The Party' we've got both rather than one swapped for the other.

'The Lion King' is already The Rainforest Cafe with songs. I'm being unfair but can never forget the cloth that came down after the great (but dramatically isolated) opening watering hole sequence, and it being referred to by some Muskrat or whatever as looking 'like an IKEA shower curtain'. Way to kill the magic. Still don't know if that was scripted or ad libbed.

Why would they do this though? Lion King makes literally millions for Disney. I read somewhere that it's made more money than literally any other entertainment product in history. They presumably have a good deal with the theatre owners and it seems to sell out all the time. I guess Wicked, Les Mis all have similar arrangements. What's in it for them to build a whole new specific 'event venue'? They are West End shows, part of the appeal for people is that they are in West End theatres, surrounded by restaurants, hotels and attractions and easy travel connections. I suspect if you stuck Lion King in the Wembley Troubadour or suchlike it wouldn't last long.

[max]

Nov 12, 2024 20:09:55 GMT partytentdown said:

Nov 12, 2024 20:00:06 GMT max said:

I don't want them to close, but it could be a positive benefit all round if some of the long-runners moved into 'event spaces' - no loss of performers' jobs, and potentially a lot more jobs and revenue created by a 'stay the whole day for the experience' vibe. The theme park / tourist attraction angle fully embraced. Perhaps if the site-specific New York 'Phantom...' works, that would be a way for London to go. Though with 'Mamma Mia' and 'Mamma Mia, The Party' we've got both rather than one swapped for the other.

'The Lion King' is already The Rainforest Cafe with songs. I'm being unfair but can never forget the cloth that came down after the great (but dramatically isolated) opening watering hole sequence, and it being referred to by some Muskrat or whatever as looking 'like an IKEA shower curtain'. Way to kill the magic. Still don't know if that was scripted or ad libbed.

Why would they do this though? Lion King makes literally millions for Disney. I read somewhere that it's made more money than literally any other entertainment product in history. They presumably have a good deal with the theatre owners and it seems to sell out all the time. I guess Wicked, Les Mis all have similar arrangements. What's in it for them to build a whole new specific 'event venue'? They are West End shows, part of the appeal for people is that they are in West End theatres, surrounded by restaurants, hotels and attractions and easy travel connections. I suspect if you stuck Lion King in the Wembley Troubadour or suchlike it wouldn't last long.

I suspect you're right - though the thought of all those restaurants, hotels and attractions you mention taking money that isn't coming to the show producers might tempt the big companies into an 'all under one roof / captive spender' set-up.  At which point I talk myself out of it, lol.  It would be like those Victorian industrial villages, where the workers got paid in tokens that were only valid at a shop owned by.... the factory owner. No benefit to surrounding businesses. 

[pineapple4you]

To play devil's advocate for a sec, long running musicals often give the impression that "this is what musicals are" to new audience members when they are a tiny snapshot of the smorgasbord out there. But these are the shows people come to first because they most familiar as a consequence of their longevity.

I have 3 male friends that first experience of West End theatre was separately Wicked with their partners. They hated it and presumed that all musicals are like this. It was not until I dragged them along to Mincemeat and Police Cops that their eyes were opened(!)

[Jon]

One of the main attraction to coming to London for many tourists is to see a show and The Lion King fills that gap nicely in the same way that Cats did. The fact it is still does strong business in London despite there being productions around the world as well as a UK tour every so often shows it still has enduring appeal.

[BVM]

I don’t necessarily think musicals need to be old to make it on to ITV etc.

They just need to be big. And new shows get added into the TV repertoire if they are big.

Hamilton and Six are on telly a lot cos they are massive.

Sadly you’re never gonna excite the TV audience with small numbers from lesser known shows.

But people who are interested will have a gateway into MT and will be able to discover more under their own steam. As most of us have done!

[Phantom of London]

Nov 12, 2024 20:09:55 GMT partytentdown said:

Nov 12, 2024 20:00:06 GMT max said:

I don't want them to close, but it could be a positive benefit all round if some of the long-runners moved into 'event spaces' - no loss of performers' jobs, and potentially a lot more jobs and revenue created by a 'stay the whole day for the experience' vibe. The theme park / tourist attraction angle fully embraced. Perhaps if the site-specific New York 'Phantom...' works, that would be a way for London to go. Though with 'Mamma Mia' and 'Mamma Mia, The Party' we've got both rather than one swapped for the other.

'The Lion King' is already The Rainforest Cafe with songs. I'm being unfair but can never forget the cloth that came down after the great (but dramatically isolated) opening watering hole sequence, and it being referred to by some Muskrat or whatever as looking 'like an IKEA shower curtain'. Way to kill the magic. Still don't know if that was scripted or ad libbed.

Why would they do this though? Lion King makes literally millions for Disney. I read somewhere that it's made more money than literally any other entertainment product in history. They presumably have a good deal with the theatre owners and it seems to sell out all the time. I guess Wicked, Les Mis all have similar arrangements. What's in it for them to build a whole new specific 'event venue'? They are West End shows, part of the appeal for people is that they are in West End theatres, surrounded by restaurants, hotels and attractions and easy travel connections. I suspect if you stuck Lion King in the Wembley Troubadour or suchlike it wouldn't last long.

The Lion King on stage is the highest grossing piece of entertainment ever, it has grossed $7 billion, I’m sure Elton John and Tim Rice have a great pension scheme.

That is the reason why you need long running successful shows, as this gives producers, promoters and organisation the confidence to put shows on. If you had shows that closed after 2 years, the industry wouldn’t take a risk, also if they did the production qualities wouldn’t be great. So if you want shows like Chicago or 2:22 A Ghost Story then that would be the correct route to go.

No doubt London has missed out on shows as a theatre hasn’t been available such as; Aida, Anastasia or the Prom etc. The answer is to cater for demand by not closing but building.