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Post by sf on Jul 5, 2024 16:38:31 GMT
Sweetest moment: Truss losing by setting a new record of largest ever swing against a Tory to Labour. Notable, too, that she couldn't even be bothered to give a concession speech. Utterly, utterly graceless and self-absorbed. |
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Post by mkb on Jul 5, 2024 16:43:50 GMT
Quite happy with first-past-the-post + informed tactical voting. The two go together. ... It's fascinating how people who like the outcome of FPTP are so comfortable with setting aside the manifest unfairness of it. ... And Greens doubled votes while adding a seat. Seats quadrupled. Starmer has a mandate and an open road, but he is on notice to deliver. No nonsense coaltions, no excuse for other than strong government. 1stPTP wot dun it. No, it's Farage who is responsible for the huge majority. Obviously we can't say for sure how votes would have fallenl, but under FPTP and without Reform, the Labour majority is likely to have been nowhere near the size achieved. It doesn't bear thinking about what could have happened today if Reform had targetted only Labour seats, similar to how they targetted anti-Brexit MPs in 2017. Whatever is meant by "strong government" -- and it tends to mean unrestrained power -- I'm not sure history shows that to be a good thing. Most of the Western world operates on more proportional systems, and I don't see any evidence that any consequent coalitions, rather than single-party overall majorities, result in governments that adversely affect economies and standards of living. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 5, 2024 16:43:50 GMT
Sweetest moment: Truss losing by setting a new record of largest ever swing against a Tory to Labour. Notable, too, that she couldn't even be bothered to give a concession speech. Utterly, utterly graceless and self-absorbed. I'm not sure she could give a concession speech. Absolutely beside herself and upset. I'm not sure I'd hold that one against her |
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Post by aspieandy on Jul 5, 2024 16:46:12 GMT
I'm not saying diagnosis would definitely pick something up, however there is more to how Liz Truss presents to the world than manners.
Somewhat amusing that Starmer gets picked up for being 'robotic' while no one sees Truss.
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Post by mkb on Jul 5, 2024 16:48:50 GMT
What do you mean "no one sees Truss"? Her awkward manner has been lampooned for years on Have I Got News For You? The pork markets clip must be worn out.
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Post by parsley1 on Jul 5, 2024 16:49:35 GMT
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Post by aspieandy on Jul 5, 2024 16:53:32 GMT
Starmer has a mandate and an open road, but he is on notice to deliver. No nonsense coaltions, no excuse for other than strong government. 1stPTP wot dun it. No, it's Farage who is responsible for the huge majority. And there was silly me thinking it was voter choice (to empower Reform), sometimes in earnest, sometimes tactically.
Lest we forget, Sunak chose to go early partly becasue he hoped to catch Farage/Reform unready i.e to avoid tactical voting from the right.
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Post by mkb on Jul 5, 2024 16:58:55 GMT
No, it's Farage who is responsible for the huge majority. And there was silly me thinking it was voter choice (to empower Reform), sometimes in earnest, sometimes tactically. ... You seriously think that if Reform had not been energised by Farage, that they'd still have had the same number of votes, or that their votes going elsewhere instead would not have largely fallen to Labour's disadvantage? |
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Post by aspieandy on Jul 5, 2024 17:03:51 GMT
It's pretty clear. If people don't vote for you, you are shouting at traffic. Reform was enabled by earnest and tactical voting. Had Farage not joined Reform, tactical voting would have manifested differently, elsewhere. Labour were still 20% up when Farage joined..
Mainstream tv narratives focus on the bogeyman. It's up to you what you do about that, though probably good to not swallow it wholesale.
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Post by mkb on Jul 5, 2024 17:20:09 GMT
When political arguments begin by declaring their clarity, it's a good rule of thumb that what follows will be anything but.
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Post by aspieandy on Jul 5, 2024 17:23:47 GMT
Hark: is that the sound of shifting goalposts
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Post by mkb on Jul 5, 2024 17:24:22 GMT
I see that, contrary to media suggestions, the penultimate declaration, at South Basildon and East Thurrock, has gone to Reform rather than Labour. 98-vote majority.
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Post by mkb on Jul 5, 2024 17:27:35 GMT
Hark: is that the sound of shifting goalposts Think you may have misunderstood me, if you think my view was shifting. |
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Post by sf on Jul 5, 2024 17:40:16 GMT
Notable, too, that she couldn't even be bothered to give a concession speech. Utterly, utterly graceless and self-absorbed. I'm not sure she could give a concession speech. Absolutely beside herself and upset. I'm not sure I'd hold that one against her No. She doesn't get a pass for this. If nothing else, the people who campaigned on her behalf deserved a public thank-you, and she didn't think they were important enough to offer them one. That's indefensible, and speaks volumes to her (lack of) character. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 5, 2024 17:52:42 GMT
I'm not sure she could give a concession speech. Absolutely beside herself and upset. I'm not sure I'd hold that one against her No. She doesn't get a pass for this. If nothing else, the people who campaigned on her behalf deserved a public thank-you, and she didn't think they were important enough to offer them one. That's indefensible, and speaks volumes to her (lack of) character. You're a harder man than me. Ruthless. Is the speech mandatory anyway? Not compulsory is it? |
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Post by Phantom of London on Jul 5, 2024 17:56:29 GMT
I watched that about 6:30 this morning and for a while I saw the podium minus Liz Truss, so thought she bolted it down the A10, but she didn’t she toughed it out and took her place on the podium, which I have to say is very gracious of her, to give us that true Michael Portillo moment the election had so far been lacking. A truly fitting end to a political career.
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Post by sf on Jul 5, 2024 18:04:42 GMT
No. She doesn't get a pass for this. If nothing else, the people who campaigned on her behalf deserved a public thank-you, and she didn't think they were important enough to offer them one. That's indefensible, and speaks volumes to her (lack of) character. You're a harder man than me. Ruthless. Is the speech mandatory anyway? Not compulsory is it? Not compulsory, but most people do it. Not generally a fan of Penny Mordaunt, for example, but I'm sure she was devastated to lose her seat, and she still managed to give a warm, generous, thoroughly admirable concession speech in which she thanked everybody who had campaigned for her, extended a welcome to the opponent who beat her, paid tribute to her constituents (and not just the constituents who voted for her), and promised to do everything she could to enable a smooth transition of constituency casework. Truss's refusal to do the same, in comparison, just looked mean-spirited and ungenerous. |
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Post by Jon on Jul 5, 2024 18:32:43 GMT
I do wonder if some of the MPs who lost their seat are perhaps secretly thrilled to leave politics. It's not a job for the faint hearted and perhaps something more normal would be better for some of them.
We'll be seeing Truss and Sunak at big occasions like Remembrance Sunday since former PMs usually always attend those.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 5, 2024 21:38:45 GMT
I do wonder if some of the MPs who lost their seat are perhaps secretly thrilled to leave politics. It's not a job for the faint hearted and perhaps something more normal would be better for some of them. We'll be seeing Truss and Sunak at big occasions like Remembrance Sunday since former PMs usually always attend those. Steve Baker gave that interview today |
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Post by ceebee on Jul 6, 2024 0:59:49 GMT
No. She doesn't get a pass for this. If nothing else, the people who campaigned on her behalf deserved a public thank-you, and she didn't think they were important enough to offer them one. That's indefensible, and speaks volumes to her (lack of) character. You're a harder man than me. Ruthless. Is the speech mandatory anyway? Not compulsory is it? It was a technical issue. Truss - oh, no mics. |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jul 6, 2024 8:15:13 GMT
At least she turned up unlike Galloway.
I'm delighted they both lost their seat
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Post by aspieandy on Jul 6, 2024 8:24:42 GMT
Thet aren't told the outcome until immediately before the formal announcement so it looks like she went somewhere, maybe to the toilet or carpark, to try to process. The candidates couldn't tell from the piles of votes either so it must have been a huge shock.
She's not a bad person. Just a little delusional about the boundaries of her abilities and how significantly she impacted so many lives.
The extraordinary thing is the party membership chose her to lead. They wanted to believe they were getting Thatcher 2.0.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jul 6, 2024 8:32:09 GMT
Thet aren't told the outcome until just before the formal announcement so it looks like she went somewhere, maybe to the toilet, to try to process. The candidates couldn't tell from the piles of votes either, as they were so equal, so it must have been a huge shock. I only learnt this year they are told previously. Has this always been the case? - I like the notion of us all finding out together |
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Post by aspieandy on Jul 6, 2024 8:36:36 GMT
As far back as I remember, they have always been allowed a few moments to process. Often their teams can tell from the counted stacks, though not in this case.
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Post by Jon on Jul 6, 2024 9:57:11 GMT
At least she turned up unlike Galloway. I'm delighted they both lost their seat Galloway never seems to last long in actual elections with the exception of 2005. I think a few of the one policy MPs aren't going to last the term especially if they started doing stupid things. |
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