371 posts
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Post by popcultureboy on May 11, 2016 9:13:33 GMT
Maybe I'm being idealistic but I don't see there being any need for stunt casting with Hamilton. It's appearance will generate enough box office sales to sell well past the end of a contract you'd get with any big name, so why bother? It'd be a much better thing to do down the line if ticket sales start drying up. I don't think that's a certainty at all. Yes, it's a colossal hit on Broadway, but that's meaningless to anyone who's not a big theatre fan/follower. Anything that has played on Broadway is advertised as "the Broadway smash hit/direct from Broadway", so that sort of advertising won't help it any more than any other show, and it doesn't have a popular movie/book behind it to help the advertising either (the book it's based on is more relevant to the US than here). Plus Lin-Manuel Miranda is not a big name to the general UK public. Yes, it will probably be a hit the same way Mormon was, but I don't think an instant advance sell-out for months is at all guaranteed. Mormon had a lot of other factors going for it, besides being a runaway megasmash on Broadway. Not least of those is the South Park factor, which is something recognised outside of the USA. And that is where Hamilton will, I think, struggle. I don't want to sound like a Debbie Downer, but there are many MANY Broadway and off-Broadway juggernauts which have paraded into London on a huge wave of hype and glory only to implode under so-so reviews and awful ticket sales in a matter of weeks or months because they are just too American for British audiences to connect with. Rent Hair (the recent revival) The Fantasticks I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change City of Angels Fosse And many many more. The list of shows to come in and succeed is, sadly, much shorter. And Hamilton is the very model of a modern American musical, so I am really not so sure its success and longevity is a guaranteed thing in the West End at all. Especially if there isn't any name recognition for a wider audience to connect with. And especially if it goes into a theatre which seats 300-400 more than its Broadway home and is off the beaten West End track. I know Victoria is a mega busy station, but it's somewhere people pass through rather than go to. I'm not saying the show is bad, by any means. But Broadway is a VERY different place to the West End. |
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Post by partytentdown on May 11, 2016 9:18:47 GMT
I don't think that's a certainty at all. Yes, it's a colossal hit on Broadway, but that's meaningless to anyone who's not a big theatre fan/follower. Anything that has played on Broadway is advertised as "the Broadway smash hit/direct from Broadway", so that sort of advertising won't help it any more than any other show, and it doesn't have a popular movie/book behind it to help the advertising either (the book it's based on is more relevant to the US than here). Plus Lin-Manuel Miranda is not a big name to the general UK public. Yes, it will probably be a hit the same way Mormon was, but I don't think an instant advance sell-out for months is at all guaranteed. Mormon had a lot of other factors going for it, besides being a runaway megasmash on Broadway. Not least of those is the South Park factor, which is something recognised outside of the USA. And that is where Hamilton will, I think, struggle. I don't want to sound like a Debbie Downer, but there are many MANY Broadway and off-Broadway juggernauts which have paraded into London on a huge wave of hype and glory only to implode under so-so reviews and awful ticket sales in a matter of weeks or months because they are just too American for British audiences to connect with. Rent Hair (the recent revival) The Fantasticks I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change City of Angels Fosse And many many more. The list of shows to come in and succeed is, sadly, much shorter. And Hamilton is the very model of a modern American musical, so I am really not so sure its success and longevity is a guaranteed thing in the West End at all. Especially if there isn't any name recognition for a wider audience to connect with. And especially if it goes into a theatre which seats 300-400 more than its Broadway home and is off the beaten West End track. I know Victoria is a mega busy station, but it's somewhere people pass through rather than go to. I'm not saying the show is bad, by any means. But Broadway is a VERY different place to the West End. But there just feels like there's something that sets Hamilton aside from the shows you list - perhaps excluding Rent - that thrusts into the popular mainstream. This is a show known amongst a lot of the non theatre crowd. People in my office, who have zero interest in theatre, know what it is, they listen to it on their iPhones and sing along to it. It's won non-theatre awards as well as theatre awards, and its songs get played on the radio. I bet I could go out on the street and find ten people who'd heard of Hamilton but none of the shows above. |
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Post by popcultureboy on May 11, 2016 9:25:26 GMT
Possibly. Hamilton has crossed over into the mainstream more than any other musical in the history of ever, so it may well become a runaway megasmash here. Like I say, I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer or bash the show, but I am not convinced it will repeat its US success outside of the US when it is so very uniquely American, pop culture status or no.
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Post by 49thand8th on May 11, 2016 14:12:07 GMT
Fair enough, but if you're going to stunt-cast anyone, it should be Burr or Hamilton (or maybe Angelica), not King George.
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Post by partytentdown on May 11, 2016 14:25:10 GMT
Fair enough, but if you're going to stunt-cast anyone, it should be Burr or Hamilton (or maybe Angelica), not King George. Nooo - these are the roles that require some serious singing/rapping skills. George still needs to be a great singer, but I'd say it's far easier to cast than the leads if you're going for a name. |
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Post by 49thand8th on May 11, 2016 14:49:36 GMT
You don't need to explain that to me -- I've seen Hamilton twice. What I mean is what I said before. King George stands out enough in that he's the only super-white person on the stage and the only one singing anything in the style that he sings. You don't need his presence to steal focus anymore than he intentionally already does. It's already troubling that so many people's favorite character or song is the one white guy and his one song and two reprises. There's no need to play into that any further.
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Post by bjorne on May 11, 2016 14:50:34 GMT
Well it depends. They could actually stunt cast a famous rapper for those roles. I don't know, like M.I.A as Angelica (The only British rapper I could think of right now.)
Not that I think that would happen.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 14:53:35 GMT
I don't think that's a certainty at all. Yes, it's a colossal hit on Broadway, but that's meaningless to anyone who's not a big theatre fan/follower. Anything that has played on Broadway is advertised as "the Broadway smash hit/direct from Broadway", so that sort of advertising won't help it any more than any other show, and it doesn't have a popular movie/book behind it to help the advertising either (the book it's based on is more relevant to the US than here). Plus Lin-Manuel Miranda is not a big name to the general UK public. Yes, it will probably be a hit the same way Mormon was, but I don't think an instant advance sell-out for months is at all guaranteed. Mormon had a lot of other factors going for it, besides being a runaway megasmash on Broadway. Not least of those is the South Park factor, which is something recognised outside of the USA. And that is where Hamilton will, I think, struggle. I don't want to sound like a Debbie Downer, but there are many MANY Broadway and off-Broadway juggernauts which have paraded into London on a huge wave of hype and glory only to implode under so-so reviews and awful ticket sales in a matter of weeks or months because they are just too American for British audiences to connect with. Rent Hair (the recent revival) The Fantasticks I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change City of Angels Fosse And many many more. The list of shows to come in and succeed is, sadly, much shorter. And Hamilton is the very model of a modern American musical, so I am really not so sure its success and longevity is a guaranteed thing in the West End at all. Especially if there isn't any name recognition for a wider audience to connect with. And especially if it goes into a theatre which seats 300-400 more than its Broadway home and is off the beaten West End track. I know Victoria is a mega busy station, but it's somewhere people pass through rather than go to. I'm not saying the show is bad, by any means. But Broadway is a VERY different place to the West End. The only show on that list that can compare to the status of Hamilton is Rent, and that came to London in the 90s when no-one had the internet. We live in a completely different age where word can spread around the world about a show easily. The Hamilton cast recording and book have already sold very well in the UK considering the show isn't even on here yet. As well, people like Jonathan Ross have done 30 minute features on Hamilton on Radio 2 over a year before the show will even reach London. Hamilton is also much more of a phenomenon than Mormon at this point in America. I'm not saying it will be as successful here, it obviously wont be but there's IMO very little chance of it flopping. You've also got to think that people from around the world who can't get a ticket in America will buy tickets here. |
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Post by 49thand8th on May 11, 2016 14:54:04 GMT
Although as much as I don't LOVE Hamilton (though I do enjoy it), one should hope they trust the material to stand on its own.
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371 posts
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Post by popcultureboy on May 11, 2016 21:55:22 GMT
Rent was here in the late 90s, when we had the internet. Admittedly, not quite as much as we do now, but there were many fan sites and forums for the show. The argument of Americans buying tickets to see it here because they can't see it there is also one that was made about Rent. I also missed a show off my earlier list:
The Producers.
A run of a little over two years in London, with houses very far from full the second Nathan Lane left. And that's the show where Broadway demand was so high, it ushered in the hated premium priced seating.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 22:11:08 GMT
Dial-up internet and no social media though. It's a completely different ballpark.
The Producers also became far less popular when the stars left in New York. The cast are not the stars of Hamilton, the show is.
Americans buying tickets worked with Mormon. Definitely heard American accents in that audience before.
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Post by Jon on May 12, 2016 0:38:15 GMT
Dial-up internet and no social media though. It's a completely different ballpark. The Producers also became far less popular when the stars left in New York. The cast are not the stars of Hamilton, the show is. Americans buying tickets worked with Mormon. Definitely heard American accents in that audience before. The Producers was star driven both in NY and here although two years at Drury Lane wasn't a bad run by any means. You can bet Cameron Mackintosh will be starting the campaign for Hamilton's West End pretty early, I wouldn't be surprised if we have a website and ads in the Sunday papers once it wins the Tony. Mormon got the ball rolling with the early presales and ads so I expect Hamilton will do the same. |
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Post by viserys on May 12, 2016 5:01:15 GMT
I'd say the big difference with the internet was the lack of social media back then. If you actively looked for Rent (or other musical-related stuff) you'd find it, but you weren't swamped with stuff on all your social media feeds, news websites and so on. Still, from my experience a lot of online hype doesn't automatically translate into actual ticket sales.
We will yet have to see how well Hamilton thrives in NY when the stars are gone. Although I really don't think Miranda, Odom Jr. etc. are in the same league as Lane and Broderick at the time, who had both been famous movie/theatre stars before.
And Americans making the treck to London just to see Hamilton? By the time they've paid for flights, hotels, etc. they might as well buy the overpriced tickets in New York.
Out of curiosity - just how "big" are rap and hiphop in the UK anyway? It seems to me that all the famous stars of that genre are American whereas I can't think of any really famous British rappers.
Either way, even if Hamilton sells well, it's comforting to know that you will always be able to buy tickets at decent (albeit high) prices since DMT doesn't have that resale racket going on that's driven Hamilton prices up to insanity.
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Post by ali973 on May 12, 2016 6:04:42 GMT
A block of tickets was released for dates in November-January and of course all of them were gone in less than 3 hours. Pretty outrageous.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2016 11:43:16 GMT
To be fair, Lin and Leslie have already confirmed they're leaving in July but tickets are still completely sold out until January. I really don't think they'll struggle.
I didn't mean Americans would come just to see Hamilton but a lot of people from America (and other countries) will be here anyway and will be able to find a cheaper ticket.
British rappers aren't too successful but I don't think that's because rap isn't popular here. The general consensus seems to be that British rappers are a bit lame in comparison to the big American rappers who do top the charts here. Also when you look at the actual Hamilton track listing, only half of those songs I would actually consider to be rap.
I actually think the only thing that stands in the way of Hamilton being a success here is the subject matter. Now if word of mouth and hype exceeds that like it did in New York then it wont matter, but that will be a case of waiting and seeing.
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Post by 49thand8th on May 12, 2016 14:04:37 GMT
And Americans making the treck to London just to see Hamilton? By the time they've paid for flights, hotels, etc. they might as well buy the overpriced tickets in New York. I doubt it, but if they're already considering a vacation to the UK (or the general area), this may be what pushes them off the fence. This is not quite the same thing, but when Jersey Boys opened in Las Vegas, it was still not that easy to get tickets in New York. I lived in California then, so I went to Vegas and saw it there frequently. More than once I heard from someone who lived in the tri-state area who said it was so much easier to get tickets to Jersey Boys in Vegas, they decided to do so while they were there. |
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Post by ali973 on May 12, 2016 17:01:31 GMT
Looks like cast extension is still fluid. It seems that it was almost speculated that just about everyone (esp Lin and Leslie) were out by July, but this perhaps alludes to at least Leslie's extension: Mr. Odom, whose contract with “Hamilton” expires in July, said he does not know whether he will stay with the show, or what will happen next. “I don’t have any control over the offers that are going to come to me, or not come to me,” he said. “But I can’t go backward, and so that’s what’s tricky. After Aaron Burr, it’s got to be a good part, it’s got to be an interesting part.” Source: www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/theater/a-hamilton-stars-story-how-leslie-odom-jr-became-aaron-burr-sir.html?smid=pl-share&_r=0 |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2016 17:05:30 GMT
Perhaps he's waiting to see if he'll win the Tony. Do producers ever give pay rises to keep Tony winners in their shows?
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Post by ali973 on May 12, 2016 17:09:14 GMT
^ I think he can probably guarantee a raise simply by renewal despite of winning or not. I hope he stays, of all the OBC members I want to see him most.
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Post by primitivewallflower on May 12, 2016 17:20:14 GMT
I don't think that's a certainty at all. Yes, it's a colossal hit on Broadway, but that's meaningless to anyone who's not a big theatre fan/follower. Anything that has played on Broadway is advertised as "the Broadway smash hit/direct from Broadway", so that sort of advertising won't help it any more than any other show, and it doesn't have a popular movie/book behind it to help the advertising either (the book it's based on is more relevant to the US than here). Plus Lin-Manuel Miranda is not a big name to the general UK public. Yes, it will probably be a hit the same way Mormon was, but I don't think an instant advance sell-out for months is at all guaranteed. Mormon had a lot of other factors going for it, besides being a runaway megasmash on Broadway. Not least of those is the South Park factor, which is something recognised outside of the USA. And that is where Hamilton will, I think, struggle. I don't want to sound like a Debbie Downer, but there are many MANY Broadway and off-Broadway juggernauts which have paraded into London on a huge wave of hype and glory only to implode under so-so reviews and awful ticket sales in a matter of weeks or months because they are just too American for British audiences to connect with. Rent Hair (the recent revival) The Fantasticks I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change City of Angels Fosse And many many more. The list of shows to come in and succeed is, sadly, much shorter. And Hamilton is the very model of a modern American musical, so I am really not so sure its success and longevity is a guaranteed thing in the West End at all. Especially if there isn't any name recognition for a wider audience to connect with. And especially if it goes into a theatre which seats 300-400 more than its Broadway home and is off the beaten West End track. I know Victoria is a mega busy station, but it's somewhere people pass through rather than go to. I'm not saying the show is bad, by any means. But Broadway is a VERY different place to the West End. As a cultural phenomenon, the only comparable one on that list is Rent. And Hamilton is a better musical than Rent. ::ducks for cover, runs out door:: |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2016 21:28:08 GMT
I mean, at least the characters in Hamilton are able to hold down jobs (somewhat).
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Post by primitivewallflower on May 13, 2016 3:30:53 GMT
I mean, at least the characters in Hamilton are able to hold down jobs (somewhat). HA. In all seriousness, on paper it's not a musical I'd expect to do well in London. Then again, on paper it's not a musical I'd expect to do well anywhere. And I actually know a fair number of Britons who are hooked on it just based on the OCR. So my cautiously-optimistic guess is: better than a flame-out (Rent), but probably not a long-term mainstay (Les Mis). |
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Post by danb on May 13, 2016 5:22:21 GMT
...but sticking such an unknown quantity all the way out in Victoria might result in a similar fate to 'Rent' in terms of it's West End performance. I'd say it needed one of the big marquees and prime footfall theatres to ensure any sort of long term life, and none of them will be available for many a moon.
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Post by Oleanna on May 13, 2016 8:32:59 GMT
Victoria becoming the place for Broadway juggernauts!
In all seriousness, isn't it funny how an area with only two theatres, away from the rest of the West End can be populated mostly by long running shows?
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Post by danb on May 13, 2016 20:07:34 GMT
'Cats' was hardly off the beaten track! It's on Drury Lane ffs! Walk in a straight line from Covent Garden long enough & you'll come to it...I'll admit that I had the same reservations about 'Wicked' so you may be right monkey, but it isn't doing itself any favours is it. I think the historical facade of the Palace would have been ideal for this.
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