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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 23:22:41 GMT
Random thoughts...
Act 2 isn't as strong as the first and doesn't have the same flow. It's all a bit stop and start for me.
I don't like 'what did I miss' as the opening.
I really appreciate the doubling up the cast do in the second half, not something that stood out as much in the London production. The up close filming probably helped a lot.
Christopher Jackson singing 'One Last Time' is like smooth velvet. Gorgeous.
Leslie Odom Jr. is a very different Burr to Giles Terera. I thought Odom's acting was excellent and really showed the arc of his character. I actually felt sorry for him.
The staging of 'Hurricane' is great, with the furniture swirling around, a bit like the cow in Twister
Phillipa Soo can drop a tear at the perfect moment.
Eliza taking hold of Hamilton's hand in 'It's Quiet Uptown' made me cry.
Love that each member of the ensemble get's a single screen in the credits.
Great that the understudies, standby's and swings also get credit. Along with the entire crew from the theatre.
Overall, this Hamilton is an amazing recording of a show that broke records and barriers, and also goes to show that live theatre can be filmed and recorded in a way that really gives you an 'experience' It's thrilling to see. I hope this might lead the way for other shows to be recorded like this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 23:49:09 GMT
Watching this now. It’s a great recording, though I wish I could hear the audience a little more - we already have the OBC recording, some interesting camera angles (wide shots seem to be a mix of being lower and looking up, level and slightly higher looking down etc). The close ups take me out of it a little too as they’re obviously edited in, but this is all very minor nuances - it’s a fantastic recording that I’m very please to have, considering how relatively young the show still is and how we weren’t supposed to get it until October 2021.
However... having seen the London cast, it really exposes the weakness of this original broadway cast... and Lin-Manuel is absolutely the weakest link. Daveed Diggs is the strongest and seems to just steal every scene he’s in - and no, I don’t think it’s just the characters he plays.
I’m surprised at the one f-bomb they kept in, because it would have worked without it, whereas the other two are noticeable drops. Obviously we know why and not an issue at all, but interesting choice.
Jonathan Groff... must have been like sitting front row at Singing in The Rain!
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Post by intoanewlife on Jul 3, 2020 23:55:32 GMT
Just finished it.
Beautifully made film. My only complaint would be there should've been a few more wides at certain moments to capture some of the excellent choreography and lighting a little better, but apart from that is was excellent.
Soo and Jackson were the only 2 who really made any sort of impression, the rest were serviceable but nowhere near as strong as the 2 London casts I've seen.
As for the show itself, it is pretty much a work of genius. Act 1 is amazing and the first 3/4 of the 2nd Act is great, it's only really the last half hour that is weaker for me.
Still it is a phenominal achievement from a very talented man.
Not the best singer tho...
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Post by intoanewlife on Jul 4, 2020 0:09:25 GMT
Daveed Diggs is the strongest and seems to just steal every scene he’s in - and no, I don’t think it’s just the characters he plays. Jonathan Groff... must have been like sitting front row at Singing in The Rain! Diggs was good in the 1st Act but weaker in the 2nd, he is certainly no Jason Pennycooke however who just NAILED the role. I will say Groff was MUCH better than I thought he was going to be. |
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Post by chernjam on Jul 4, 2020 3:15:12 GMT
However... having seen the London cast, it really exposes the weakness of this original broadway cast... and Lin-Manuel is absolutely the weakest link. Daveed Diggs is the strongest and seems to just steal every scene he’s in - and no, I don’t think it’s just the characters he plays. Glad I'm not the only one who thought this about Lin-Manuel. The (few) clips of the London Hamilton I saw made me hope that there would be a London Cast Recording (knowing there was no way Lin would allow that) He's wayyyy too nasally for me. I forget who I saw on Broadway in Jan 2018 when I finally saw it and he was excellent |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 4:23:38 GMT
I saw the OBC twice and have seen the original London cast three times.
I'd take the OBC any day. There were some great performances in London but at best they matched their OBC counterparts, didn't beat them. And at worst, you get Rachelle Ann Go totally misunderstanding Eliza and Jason Pennycooke bringing none of Daveed Diggs' charisma. Seeing it in London a few times was what managed to eventually dim my hype for the show and allow me to move on to something else. Not sure if that would have happened if I'd have kept getting to see the OBC.
As for Lin, I agree he is weak in this recording but I didn't find that to be the case at all seeing him live (nor on the bootleg versions of the show I've seen). I have the same problems here I had with his performance at the Tonys, he seems on the verge of tears most of the time which makes his voice even weaker than it already is. With the Tonys, that was understandable as it was the day after the Pulse nightclub shooting and he had to sing lyrics like "take the bullets out your gun." Not sure what happened here however. I know he's a very earnest and emotional person and maybe he got overwhelmed knowing that it was going to be preserved forever. But I wish he'd been able to rein it in a bit because I don't think there are other Hamiltons out there that match his stage presence and rap flow.
Diggs and Goldsberry often get the most praise and they are fantastic but I think they are also given the best parts to impress with. Satisfied is considered by many to be the best song and Diggs' part is full of comedy that is missing for everyone else.
Really, the best performances here are Leslie Odom Jr and Phillipa Soo. Odom Jr's facial expressions are fascinating and the way his Burr simmers until he eventually cracks is played out flawlessly. As for Soo, if there is one aspect of Hamilton that can still be considered underrated it's her performance. Everytime I see someone else play Eliza I am deeply disappointed. Soo's performance is so layered and nuanced and moving. She is truly the heart of this show and I'm so grateful to have the definitive Eliza captured in high definition for the rest of time.
I was impressed overall with the direction and am really glad it captured that incredible lighting so well. And I'm always just amazed at the end of this show how one person wrote all of it. I know it took him a while but my word, it is an absolute feat of talent.
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Post by eliza on Jul 4, 2020 7:52:40 GMT
Daveed Diggs is the strongest and seems to just steal every scene he’s in - and no, I don’t think it’s just the characters he plays. Jonathan Groff... must have been like sitting front row at Singing in The Rain! Diggs was good in the 1st Act but weaker in the 2nd, he is certainly no Jason Pennycooke however who just NAILED the role. I will say Groff was MUCH better than I thought he was going to be. I do much prefer Jason Pennycooke in the role, they're very different. I feel like I 'got' the dislike and rivalry between Jefferson and Hamilton more with the UK cast. I was also surprised not to like LMM's Hamilton either. Maybe it is just a case of preferring your first cast. I loved watching it last night though. Hamilton reignited my love of musical theatre after a number of years where I hadn't been particularly passionate about anything I saw and this reminded me why. I really can't wait for theatres to reopen. We tried to recreate it a little by pausing it at the interval to have a little tub of Haagen Dazs and a gin. My boyfriend thought recreating a queue for the loo was a step too far though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 12:13:55 GMT
I think the thing with LMM is that his talent lies more in writing than performing, and the cast he surrounded himself with outshine him (and having seen him in both Mary Poppins Returns and His Dark Materials, I don’t think he’s the strongest actor).
There’s certainly more of a company feel about this version though, whereas when I’ve seen it in London, it felt like Jamael Westman was very much the lead and that his take on the character was very much about a man in control.
That’s not necessarily a negative - Hamilton lived life surrounded by a bunch of great men and LMM being overshadowed by them all as a performer ties in nicely with the idea that Hamilton himself was always destined to be overshadowed by them. To be fair the OBC seem to lean more into the comedy of the piece whereas in London it’s played a bit straighter - which makes a difference.
But I also think it’s a case of the material being so strong and rich that different performers are going to be able to put their own spin on Hamilton, sort of similar to Elphaba in Wicked - Idina Menzel was the original, but many others have given very different (and often better) takes on the role.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 12:18:07 GMT
. We tried to recreate it a little by pausing it at the interval to have a little tub of Haagen Dazs and a gin. My boyfriend thought recreating a queue for the loo was a step too far though. Ha, we did the same - though we didn’t pause it, so it became a game of ‘can we pour glasses of wine and get the ice cream in 60 seconds?’. A game I won I might add. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Jul 4, 2020 12:52:43 GMT
I wasn't really fussed with Jamal either tbh, the best Hamilton I've seen was one of the understudies who was amazing!
I've seen it 3 or 4 times and was lucky enough to do so at cast changer time so saw 2 somewhat different casts. I was also front row centre for all but one of the performances, so saw everything up close. I think because of this I saw casts either revelling in the end of something or filled with the excitement of being in the show for the first time. The US cast all seemed a bit lethargic and 'over it' whereas as the London casts were so energetic, enthusiastic and seemed genuinely excited to be on that stage. The US cast also have 'group of mates putting on a show' feel to them, whereas London feels like the cream of the crop of UK performers up there giving it their all.
I think Lin actually gave a great performance, he is just not the best singer and he doesn't have a lot of stage presence or the charisma to pull off the character convincing beyond being a good rapper.
Soo is definitely the best Eliza I've seen by far though. I'd have LOVED to have seen her play Natasha in Great Comet! Her voice is just beautiful and she has a fantastic presence.
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Post by richey on Jul 4, 2020 17:46:58 GMT
Well I watched an hour of it and gave up. Yes it's really well shot and there's some great talent on there but I didn't have a clue what was going on. I really don't understand the hype about tbis show.
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Post by intoanewlife on Jul 4, 2020 17:52:48 GMT
Well there's these things called lyrics and when you listen to them they tell you a story...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 17:54:01 GMT
Yes, I realize that a lot of the fast paced rap is hard to understand on first go but there are subtitles and they are very well done for this.
Once you've got the words down, I'm not sure what's so hard to understand.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 18:43:27 GMT
Well I watched an hour of it and gave up. Yes it's really well shot and there's some great talent on there but I didn't have a clue what was going on. I really don't understand the hype about tbis show. Same. It's a very unpopular opinion in MT fan circles, but I have never 'got' it. I don't dislike it, it's just not something I had any urge to return to. The production of the piece in terms of direction, choreography, design and lighting was excellent no doubt. Buy the piece itself didn't really do it for me. Certainly, if you go in with no knowledge of this period of American history, plot wise it's not easy. I had to look a lot of it up on Wikipedia afterwards. I'll give the filmed version a go at some point though. Encouraged by the comment above that the audience are not intrusive. When I went at the VP, it was the complete opposite - really was full of people laughing overly loudly at lines that weren't even jokes. In a knowing exclusive in the club way not dissimilar to the Wicked fangirls but without the excuse of being teenagers. Felt very much like a club not everyone was part of. Not unlike the first few weeks of Company. And that was very off-putting. A lot of the audience were very much primed, rather than reacting naturally to the show. Edit - paying over 100 quid to sit in a hot very cramped theatre that had just been refurbished didn't help. Who cares about the ornate ceiling and gold plated taps when you're rapidly developing a DVT. Edit 2 - despite not fully understanding it, I DID like that it was sung through. Rare these days! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 19:17:29 GMT
I get the criticism of the show - I’m a fan, but not blind to its faults. Act one is by far the stronger half with some great songs in quick succession, but they drag the ending of act two out a good 30 minutes more than it needs to. To be honest, I’ve said the same of both Les Mis and Phantom.
As to why it created the hype it has is something people will probably keep debating (and if anyone knew they’d bottle it), but it has to come down to an interesting story presented in the right way for right now. 15 years earlier and I’m not sure it would have found its audience and in 15 years I wouldn’t be surprised if started to feel dated.
But it’s a great piece of storytelling that would work in an audience of 100 people or 1000 - and if I’m honest, probably even an audience of 10,000: it’s one of a handful of shows that I really think could do an arena tour.
I think LMM did really well to actively engage with the fandom the show created too. Usually a show ignores their ‘dedicated fans’ but the whole Ham4Ham thing, the mixtape, Hamilton drops, getting the show produced away from Broadway as quick as it did etc... of course it’s all commercialism, but it was new content and engaging a fanbase. I’m not sure any show has done that before in the same way.
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Post by lynette on Jul 4, 2020 19:18:44 GMT
I saw this live in the theatre but before I did I listened to the CD and followed the words. And I had to look up the history as I didn't know a thing about this guy. Very glad I did this. So if you haven't done this and don't know about the characters i suggest you familiarise yourself with the lyrics and the history. Then it is a very enjoyable show. I think the first ten minutes are groundbreaking then it becomes a regular American musical, none the worse for that. Gifted writer.
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Post by distantcousin on Jul 4, 2020 19:28:23 GMT
Watched it last night, having had the cast recording for years - fairly familiar with the tunes. I also watched a (good) bootleg of it a couple of years ago and was only mildly impressed.
I hoped seeing a fantastically filmed version would make me a convert - but depsite stunning editing and cinematography with a fantastic live feel (take not Miss Saigon and Love Never Dies) - I still came away underwhelmed and scracthing my head as to what the fuss was all about
Yes, it is a novel idea, yes it is a dynamic production in terms of staging and choreography, but I struggled to feel anything much for it.
Who was I supposed to be rooting for? The story was so surface level, and both my friend and I were confused as to what was going on much of the time, and only had a vague understanding. It doesn't help that the characterisation of the protagnists is so far removed from the historical figures.
It didn't really move us, and I was certainly bored in places - especially as the rap became increasingly repetititive.
What really was the point of it in the end? Perhaps we would have got it more if we were patriotic Americans (with background knowledge of the key players and the events)
But should you have to do that amount of homework before seeing a show? Other than hype and social media, I cannot see how it has transfixed young people so much as has such a cool cachet - apart from the urban influence of it.
My friend - not such a theatre geek as me, and mainly into plays, liked elements of it, but like me, felt nothing for any of the characters, found the "scarlet woman" trope problematic, and described the piece as essentially "propaganda" - for The American Dream. I couldn't agree more.
A show to be admired rather than loved.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 19:31:50 GMT
distantcousin that expresses how I feel more eloquently than I did I think!
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Post by richey on Jul 4, 2020 19:33:52 GMT
Well there's these things called lyrics and when you listen to them they tell you a story... ok.. bit patronising but hey It doesn't really sell a show to me if you have to pre-listen to lyrics and research the story before seeing a show in order to help understand it Distantcousin you're spot on. |
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Post by distantcousin on Jul 4, 2020 19:34:34 GMT
distantcousin that expresses how I feel more eloquently than I did I think! Aww, thanks! We do often agree.
And like you, I find cultish audiences very, very off-putting!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 20:53:04 GMT
. It doesn't help that the characterisation of the protagnists is so far removed from the historical figures. I think many would argue that this is exactly why it works. In the bonus feature on Disney+ LMM says that his way into the show was because Hamilton was an immigrant who worked hard to better himself, and that the show is ultimately about a flawed group of people who created a flawed country chasing ideals America has never been able to achieve. That it’s a musical about American then, told by America now. So I don’t think that a change in historical figures is necessarily a bad thing. It is ultimately a world of fiction using artistic licence to tell a story that - more than any in recent times - seems to have brought people to musical theatre. However it is a very American story and I guess we here don’t connect with it the same way Americans do. America has this thing about their history we don’t have here. I was watching it and when the audience cheered for George Washington I sat there and thought to myself that if there was a musical about Britain, we wouldn’t cheer if William the Conqueror made an appearance. For a country famed for tradition we have a very nonchalant attitude towards our own history! |
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Post by steve10086 on Jul 4, 2020 20:58:09 GMT
. It doesn't help that the characterisation of the protagnists is so far removed from the historical figures. I think many would argue that this is exactly why it works. In the bonus feature on Disney+ LMM says that his way into the show was because Hamilton was an immigrant who worked hard to better himself, and that the show is ultimately about a flawed group of people who created a flawed country chasing ideals America has never been able to achieve. That it’s a musical about American then, told by America now. So I don’t think that a change in historical figures is necessarily a bad thing. It is ultimately a world of fiction using artistic licence to tell a story that - more than any in recent times - seems to have brought people to musical theatre. However it is a very American story and I guess we here don’t connect with it the same way Americans do. America has this thing about their history we don’t have here. I was watching it and when the audience cheered for George Washington I sat there and thought to myself that if there was a musical about Britain, we wouldn’t cheer if William the Conqueror made an appearance. For a country famed for tradition we have a very nonchalant attitude towards our own history! Britain has a lot more history than America. They have to make the most of the little they have  |
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Post by distantcousin on Jul 4, 2020 21:06:07 GMT
. It doesn't help that the characterisation of the protagnists is so far removed from the historical figures. I think many would argue that this is exactly why it works. In the bonus feature on Disney+ LMM says that his way into the show was because Hamilton was an immigrant who worked hard to better himself, and that the show is ultimately about a flawed group of people who created a flawed country chasing ideals America has never been able to achieve. That it’s a musical about American then, told by America now. So I don’t think that a change in historical figures is necessarily a bad thing. It is ultimately a world of fiction using artistic licence to tell a story that - more than any in recent times - seems to have brought people to musical theatre. However it is a very American story and I guess we here don’t connect with it the same way Americans do. America has this thing about their history we don’t have here. I was watching it and when the audience cheered for George Washington I sat there and thought to myself that if there was a musical about Britain, we wouldn’t cheer if William the Conqueror made an appearance. For a country famed for tradition we have a very nonchalant attitude towards our own history!
The problem occurs when these very modern feeling characters do things and show motivations and values that are VERY much of the time. There are a few instances in the plot where we found this jarring and incongrous.
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Post by intoanewlife on Jul 4, 2020 21:16:47 GMT
distantcousin that expresses how I feel more eloquently than I did I think! Aww, thanks! We do often agree.
And like you, I find cultish audiences very, very off-putting!
So anyone who likes it is a cult member? I'm a 50 year old white Aussie ghey, I am hardly it's target audience. I have never listened to the CD or indeed had anything to do with it other than see it live 3 times. The first time I paid 50 quid for literally the worst seat in theatre. I was a part of the back wall in the circle and could only see the bottom 3rd of the stage. Despite this I still understood everything that was going on without ever reading a word about the show or the person it is based on. I will admit about a minute in I thought 'ok I am going to have to REALLY concentrate on what they are saying to understand this' but once I knew this, that is exactly what I did and didn't have a problem with it. This is probably because I am familiar with Dave Malloy's work and Hamilton is clearly very heavily influenced by The Great Comet in the style it's written. Comet's score is even more dense and includes stage direction, narration, character emotions and dialogue within the actual song lyrics. Personally I find the style exciting and thrilling and love the fact I have to use my brain while watching such a traditional art form. It is very much like listening to a musical audiobook as it's performed on stage. I guess some people like it and some people don't, but the fact you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't good or that people who do like it have something wrong with them... |
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Post by distantcousin on Jul 4, 2020 21:21:18 GMT
Aww, thanks! We do often agree.
And like you, I find cultish audiences very, very off-putting!
So anyone who likes it is a cult member? I'm a 50 year old white Aussie ghey, I am hardly it's target audience. I have never listened to the CD or indeed had anything to do with it other than see it live 3 times. The first time I paid 50 quid for literally the worst seat in theatre. I was a part of the back wall in the circle and could only see the bottom 3rd of the stage. Despite this I still understood everything that was going on without ever reading a word about the show or the person it is based on. I will admit about a minute in I thought 'ok I am going to have to REALLY concentrate on what they are saying to understand this' but once I knew this, that is exactly what I did and didn't have a problem with it. This is probably because I am familiar with Dave Malloy's work and Hamilton is clearly very heavily influenced by The Great Comet in the style it's written. Comet's score is even more dense and includes stage direction, narration, character emotions and dialogue within the actual song lyrics. Personally I find the style exciting and thrilling and love the fact I have to use my brain while watching such a traditional art form. It is very much like listening to a musical audiobook as it's performed on stage. I guess some people like it and some people don't, but the fact you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't good or that people who do like it have something wrong with them... Err, we didn't say "anyone" that likes it, and @dom (nor I) was referring to Hamilton in particular. It is pretty exiting and dynamic to watch, as I said, but I find it hard to care about. There's nothing particularly to "love" about it, in my opinion. But the ambitiousness of the piece is admirable. |
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