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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 8:03:02 GMT
Absolutely, and I've tried to say time and time again in this thread that I see volunteering for the performance and the office based (office monkey, yup I'm saying it again!) very differently.
I also strongly believe in volunteering for arts organisations-I'm on the board for a local company that supports disabled artists and will be volunteering to run front of house and various other things in their summer shows. Not only is it enjoyable, the company wouldn't be able to run without volunteers. Similarly one of the theatres I used to work for now relies on volunteers for FOH due to budget cuts-which could give people some valuable/enjoyable experience while also helping the theatre stay open.
What I disagree with, and I'm glad BECTU is looking into, is the kind of vaugue intern-ships you mention Foxa-the ones that aren't designed as a bit of a crash course training ground, more as a literal free labour that people do in the often equally vague hope it might just help them. But then people get stuck in unpaid job after unpaid job, gaining no real skills or experience and just allowing the company get work for free. Hell even if some of these offered travel and lunch money it'd feel less exploitative.
The other thing I rail against (and this is not so much YMBBT although they are certainly financially solvent) is the actual businesses that use this to make a profit-which happens in the arts too. Example being I offered a bit of website/social media help on a website which already uses a lot of content it doens't pay for, I did it because it's an area I could do with a bit more 'professional' credits/experience in. However what was sold as an 'hey could you do this in your spare time a few hours a week' was quickly 'You will upload all new content by 10am every morning and be responsible for the management of my website' all for nothing (setting aside I actually have a job I'm paid to do) and that was for someone who is a private business owner making a tidy profit in the guise of 'arts'
I'm not against either thing (profit in the arts or volunteering) what I think we do need is regulation for internships so people are treated fairly.
Conversely I do love that there are now a lot more apprenticeships in the arts-which allows people to train directly in especially the more technical areas on the job and get paid (a tiny amount but still paid!)
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Post by Flim Flam on Jun 3, 2016 9:19:21 GMT
I do think it's a positive sign that the nature of internships is being scrutinised more closely these days.
A couple of years ago I was trying to help a young relative find a first job and was shocked when I looked at the online job listings. A good proportion of the 'jobs' listed at that time were for unpaid internships. Many were clearly unstructured and, to my eyes at least, seemed to be a blatant attempt by companies to get free help, whilst failing to offer any real training in return. You might have something to add to your C.V. if for instance you have handled the online content for a small startup company, but quite often this help is being requested because they do not have the expertise to do this themselves. You end up training them, instead of the other way around!
If apprenticeships are genuinely structured, with qualifications and classroom time, then within the framework of the current market that can only be a good thing, and a step in the right direction in what is, in my opinion, a very misdirected situation for school leavers.
It used to be the case that, if you were interested in a career in marketing or H.R. for instance, you went and got a junior (paid) job in that sector, saw what the job actually entailed, and then once you had decided that was the career for you, you later took some professional qualifications or a degree in the subject, often at night school. If not, after a few months, you went and tried out another job, or did some temping until you found something you liked. If you were academic you went straight to university and took a degree in a subject like English or Geography, that served as a general recognition of your ability, but was acceptable for a large variety of careers, and less restricting if you decided to swap careers later on. (I am leaving out subjects like medicine from this discussion, as obviously it's a good idea to have some specialist knowledge before you start hacking away at people).
Nowadays,many youngsters jump straight into 3 year degree courses in a subject in which they have no experience, or possibly even aptitude, but have a vague feeling that they might like. The only way you can get prior experience is unpaid internships, which as everyone is mentioning, is really only available with the financial means (or family commitment and help if you are lucky) to allow you to do this. Thus disadvantaging a huge number of young people who cannot afford to do this.
Degree subjects these days can be very specialised, too specialised to allow for easy crossover to other careers if you later decide you do not like your first choice. Now, if you decide to change careers in your 20's after a year or two in your chosen profession (it's happening to someone I know right now) you have to embark on another long academic course to qualify for your new career.
I do think that a combination of the move towards 'degrees for everyone' and the state of the job market, has led to the creation of this 'cart before the horse' situation where many people are wasting time studying for unsuitable qualifications, at great expense, only to then have to throw more money at the situation in order to move towards a career that would genuinely suit them.
Okay, this last point is a personal bugbear of mine, used to work with young people in this situation, and it was always shocking to me to see the casual way in which young, inexperienced people fell into unsuitable degree courses just because it was expected that they go straight to University after school and 'well, I had to study something, and I liked the sound of ..., thought I might like it'.
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Post by kathryn on Jun 3, 2016 11:35:04 GMT
Half the problem with university these days is that it is treated as job preparation, as training, rather than education. An education is something that stays with you for life and benefits you in all sorts of ways. When I worked in a job centre we had a whole heap of people who had studied computer science struggling to get into the job market, because by the time they'd graduated industry had moved on and was outsourcing that work.
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Post by kathryn on Jun 3, 2016 13:51:54 GMT
Ha! No, or I would have failed. I was a temp, hired initially for some basic data entry, and ended up staying for 51 weeks and working on the New Deal section. That meant I was dealing with long-time unemployed people, including potentially violent customers and the odd sex offender. This was in 2004/2005, before the economy tanked, when the long-term unemployed were generally unemployed for a reason....
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Post by kathryn on Jun 3, 2016 14:08:07 GMT
That place really *was* an education....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 14:24:26 GMT
If I don't secure a job/temp work after my contract ends next week and (god forbid) I end up having to claim any kind of jobseekers I'm dreading the conversations I'll end up having with them...
But as one who also has educated University students I 100% agree with the comments above-I would encourage many, many of those I taught to pursue more vocational things for the sake of careers. And I really hope we see a shift towards more of that otherwise things will only get worse.
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Post by Snciole on Jun 3, 2016 14:27:01 GMT
I think what has put me off ever volunteering is the feeling I will get herded like cattle and not be treated particularly well. I think if people are fed or given some other perk they will volunteer happily and just see it as a bit of fun with no commitment.
The moment volunteering feels like a job and people are pressured into giving their time then there needs to be boundaries set. I hope BECTU (I am a member as I am an occasional supporting artist) put some pressure on YMBBT to at least look at what they offer volunteers and interns financially.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 14:30:47 GMT
I think a substantial part of the problem with employment these days is that management have no loyalty to their staff, expect staff to have no loyalty to their employers, and generally treat employees as expendable resources. The result is that they anticipate that everyone will move on fairly quickly, and see no point in training someone up only for a different company to reap the benefit of that training. Everyone is hired on the basis of the skills they have at the time of the interview, and there's simply no place for anyone looking to learn and settle in to a company for an extended period.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 14:35:53 GMT
I think what has put me off ever volunteering is the feeling I will get herded like cattle and not be treated particularly well. I think if people are fed or given some other perk they will volunteer happily and just see it as a bit of fun with no commitment. The moment volunteering feels like a job and people are pressured into giving their time then there needs to be boundaries set. I hope BECTU (I am a member as I am an occasional supporting artist) put some pressure on YMBBT to at least look at what they offer volunteers and interns financially. Totally agree. I used to be a volunteer coordinator for a charity and it was always really important to me that people were a) treated with respect and valued no matter what they were doing. b) given something for their time even if it was just tea and biscuits! and I think (hope) everyone was happy with that. |
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Post by londonmzfitz on Jun 3, 2016 14:44:32 GMT
Always a meal at YMBBT for the volunteers between "shifts", with fruit or whatever. And the end of evening entertainment was worth sticking around for on occasions.
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Post by Flim Flam on Jun 3, 2016 14:54:58 GMT
And don't forget the copious Haribo londonmfitz! Its a shame we didn't cross paths- or maybe we did, but didn't realise the Theatreboard connection.
Badges, we need badges!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 7:11:52 GMT
Argh, really how many times on this thread do I (and others) have to state: we aren't talking about volunteering at the performances, but the unpaid office based jobs that require a large time commitment with zero compensation.
(But hey maybe they give you harbio in the office too, that makes up for not making a living wage)
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Post by kathryn on Jun 7, 2016 9:53:07 GMT
Man/woman cannot live on Haribo alone.....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 9:55:19 GMT
Well, that depends. Are we talking Starmix or Tangfastics here?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 10:04:47 GMT
Man/woman cannot live on Haribo alone..... For a couple of days, they can. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 10:06:45 GMT
In fairness a friend and I gave a good go of living on Haribo while on holiday recently. In case you were curious, copious amounts of Haribo, high altitude and excitement over being on a Sound of Music tour makes one a bit loopy...
But I digress....
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 7, 2016 12:14:06 GMT
Any exploitation is wrong, period.
The odious Mike Ashley owner of Sports Direct is giving evidence in the house of commons as we speak, he made his money by exploiting people with zero hour contracts, these contracts are used a lot by theatres.
Fringe theatres very often don't pay their cast and give them a percentage, which they never make money to give them a percentage, if lucky travel might be reimbursed, so really this is an intern scheme for actors, I don't agree with this, but me not going to fringe will not help.
I agree with interns being wrong and used to fulfil tasks, where they would otherwise need to pay someone. These days with even more pressure to have a reasonable income, what with: paying back student loans, provisions for a pension, maybe a car loan too, then it would be nice to get a mortgage at some point, this all on top of day to day living and god forbid a ticket to the theatre.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 13:24:45 GMT
In case you were curious, copious amounts of Haribo, high altitude and excitement over being on a Sound of Music tour makes one a bit loopy... Especially as she was on holiday in Snowdonia. "These don't look like Alpine goats" "They're sheep..." |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 13:29:05 GMT
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