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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 9:07:01 GMT
An academic mailing list I'm on had an extensive discussion of the company's unpaid internships (and unpaid performers) last week. And I understand several musicians groups and performer groups on Facebook etc have been discussing. Personally glad to see this- I'm sick of profit making/highly subsidised organisations exploiting the desperation to get 'a foot in the door' and perpetuating these unpaid positions. I'm all for volunteering-I used to be a volunteer coordinator for a charity- and for helping out not for profit/small arts organisations who really do rely on volunteers. BUT with 150k of Arts Council money and a more than healthy box office, YMBBT could afford minimum wage for it's interns. www.leverhulme.ac.uk/funding/grant-schemes/research-project-grants |
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Post by Flim Flam on Jun 1, 2016 9:50:47 GMT
I have been doing some volunteering for YMBBT this season. Had not been involved with them before, but went once to see what it was all about and then found it so interesting that I went back 6 or 7 times over the last weeks, to be involved in different scenes.
I am not involved in theatre normally in any way (except as an audience member of course) but I have done a good deal of volunteering for various organisations and events over the years. At the time I got involved with YMBBT I read up on any negative publicity they had received and was careful to keep a weather eye open for any exploitation, with the intention of dropping out if I found any. Never found any, and never dropped out.
Whenever I was there, I chatted to fellow volunteers, and often asked them about their 'day jobs' as I was fascinated to see where they managed to find such a diverse group of people (age, nationality, ethnicity, you name it),many of whom returned show after show. Not a single person I personally spoke with was professionally involved in theatre or was attending drama school. I fully expected the place to be full of young theatrical students, but couldn't find any. There were probably some there, but I never met any. Many of the volunteers had either been involved in past productions or were people who had applied for tickets but were not successful, or indeed were past audience members who had been so overwhelmed by the experience that they had decided to volunteer in order to continue to be involved. Others were professional people, academics, students,retirees, all sorts.
I know that they have a short project beginning now, to make an archive of this past show, with plans etc. I am not involved with this but I was told that it was being run by a very experienced person, so I imagine that anyone who gets involved will learn from being involved in this project. All the sets have now been removed, so there is no manual labour to be done in terms of the sets as far as I know. I cannot comment on these internships, as I have no knowledge of them, but I believe that they only have the building for another 3 months, so it is not an ongoing job in any way. I too, totally dislike the trend of asking for unpaid workers in industries that can well afford to pay interns, so if they are genuinely doing this then I certainly do not support this. I simply have no factual information on this, so cannot really comment until I know more.
My experience of YMBBT was that it had a profound positive effect on many of the audience members and gave a lot to the volunteers also. Personally, I found it fascinating from a psychological viewpoint, why people were involved, how it created the effect on participants etc etc. In fact I was speaking with a psychologist friend about it only yesterday. For me, theatre is partly enjoyment, partly those transcendent moments that you chase, and only find occasionally. There is something of that transcendence to be found in YMBBT I think, and that is what kept me going back.
On a more mundane note, I do agree about the Arts Council grant. I too would question whether that is money best spent on an organisation that has limited (not cheap) tickets, but in a way it might be possible to argue that the large community of volunteers it created also benefitted from this funding. Having been involved I still find that I am on the fence about some aspects of the whole experience, but for me (having seen a lot of charitable money badly spent in other organisations- don't get me onto that subject!) I found that the positives outweighed the negatives in this case. I might change my mind once I am better informed as to the facts, but who knows?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 9:57:01 GMT
Thanks for the response, good to hear from someone involved.
To be fair to YMBBT my issue isn't so much with the volunteers for the actual performance because I fully see how it is a fun, interesting experience and the commitment is minimal and wouldn't impact on the ability to earn money in one's 'day job'. My issue is with the kind of commitment the office based internships take, meaning that people have to hold down one or more other jobs in order to finance that 'job'
They're far from the only one and not the worst offenders either, but a good example of bad practice in my opinion on the office role front.
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Post by partytentdown on Jun 1, 2016 10:17:10 GMT
I experienced the show as a 'passenger' and then volunteered a couple of times and loved it. I'm not an actor (far from it) but it was exhilarating to be in the scenes, and fantastic to meet such an enthusiastic bunch of people, who were genuinely doing it for fun and not to gain any kind of work experience, as far as I could tell.
But yes, I can see how the office type internships could be different.
The sad thing about this is that it's unlikely YMBBT will happen again in its current form. They have had so much pressure from things like this that it seems unlikely the organisers would be up for doing it again, unless they can find a way to enhance the commercial aspect to be able to pay everyone and avoid these campaigns. Which would mean excessive ticket prices and the event becoming elitist - I don't think this is what they want. So, sadly, I fear we've seen the last of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 10:31:43 GMT
It's a fine line for many organisations, between financial viability and being able to pay a living wage (or just wage) but it also comes down to the fact that you can't pay the bills with 'exposure'.
But as I said above I have less problem with the volunteer involvement in performances in the same way that I have no problem with for example, volunteering as front of house at some events/venues as the person gets some kind of 'reward in kind' (seeing/being involved in the show in return for some work) and it can be done in 'spare time'.
The office work in this (and 1000s of others) does grate me because-and I wish I could find an article I read on it yesterday- while not only be labour for free, it also perpetuates a situation of those from privileged backgrounds being the ones who can get that foot in the door because they have the financial security to be subsidised/supported while pursuing unpaid work. Meanwhile those who don't have that 'bank' to fall back on can't do as much unpaid work to gain the experience because they need to be in paid work to get by. That's not to say those without that luxury don't succeed it's just, as with much else, all the more difficult.
My bottom line is, for involvement in performance as it's an enjoyable and workable around other commitments experience, I think is totally fine. However expecting half a 'working day' several times a week for a set period doing work that others are paid for isn't.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 16:50:02 GMT
Please
A civil war has a profound effect on people
Not YMBBT
Get a grip
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Post by Flim Flam on Jun 1, 2016 17:50:34 GMT
Parsley, you may not believe that the arts offer the possibility of profound experience, but many of us do.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 17:58:29 GMT
Parsley, you may not believe that the arts offer the possibility of profound experience, but many of us do. I agree. For one thing, Richard Fleeshman's t-shirt in 'Urinetown' had an incredibly profound effect on me. Oh my. |
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Post by Flim Flam on Jun 1, 2016 18:04:39 GMT
Ryan, all I can say is that Kit Harington must be feeling very disappointed right now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 18:15:34 GMT
Probably, but did you SEE Richard Fleeshman in Urinetown? *fans self*
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Post by Flim Flam on Jun 1, 2016 18:28:03 GMT
I certainly did, and from close quarters...RF's chest in a t shirt is indeed a thing of beauty.
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Post by jaqs on Jun 1, 2016 19:19:28 GMT
I certainly did, and from close quarters...RF's chest in a t shirt is indeed a thing of beauty. Equally without in Ghost. I hate the idea of unpaid internships that require real boring work and agree it gets the richest the relevant experience or rather the same experience but meets the right people compared with the poorer person doing temp admin in a non arts office. |
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Post by londonmzfitz on Jun 1, 2016 19:41:33 GMT
Typing one finger on my iPad so expect more coherent comment tomorrow.
I did many many evenings on YMBBT Feb up to and including the last night. After I finished work on a Thursday and my free Saturday's. I loved being involved and met some really smashing people, volunteers and passengers.
My niece was an unpaid intern on the London Olympics, general gofer, runner, bringer of lunches. She stayed free at my house in NW London with her train fares paid and Ma and Pa helping out financially. Then she was an unpaid intern at a large London club, again staying with her Aunty Fitz. General dogsbody and some really tough days. It's the experience and connections she gained through that time. She's a really buzzy girl who is now self employed events organiser.
YMBBT charged a ticket price at a rate that meant people would commit to attending, not at an "Can't be arsed to rock up" price. Imagine 450 volunteers and a dozen passengers ...
In April YMBBT did a special evening that will remain with me the rest of my days. It gives me a lump in my throat still to think about it.
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Post by bellboard27 on Jun 1, 2016 19:42:47 GMT
Please A civil war has a profound effect on people Not YMBBT Get a grip You cannot know what has a profound effect on anyone other than perhaps yourself. Your posts here can have a profound effect - I believe they are the basis for a whole religion on an island in Micronesia. |
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Post by DuchessConstance on Jun 1, 2016 22:58:43 GMT
Typing one finger on my iPad so expect more coherent comment tomorrow. I did many many evenings on YMBBT Feb up to and including the last night. After I finished work on a Thursday and my free Saturday's. I loved being involved and met some really smashing people, volunteers and passengers. My niece was an unpaid intern on the London Olympics, general gofer, runner, bringer of lunches. She stayed free at my house in NW London with her train fares paid and Ma and Pa helping out financially. Then she was an unpaid intern at a large London club, again staying with her Aunty Fitz. General dogsbody and some really tough days. It's the experience and connections she gained through that time. She's a really buzzy girl who is now self employed events organiser. YMBBT charged a ticket price at a rate that meant people would commit to attending, not at an "Can't be arsed to rock up" price. Imagine 450 volunteers and a dozen passengers ... In April YMBBT did a special evening that will remain with me the rest of my days. It gives me a lump in my throat still to think about it. I know the evening you're talking about and I completely agree! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 7:18:06 GMT
Richard Fleeshman gave man a lump too I'm sure...sorry couldn't resist.
And people who volunteered at the event-I'm sure it was a utterly fantastic and profound experience, and one I may well have also done had I been in the right place at the right time. I've said it several times already but I'll say it again, I'm not knocking the involvement of volunteers in that (though I do know some performers who are angry about lack of pay, but that's not my debate)
The issue for me is the internships they are offering which are part of a wider problem of expecting young people (and not so young people, I'm 32 and currently being offered lots of 'opportunities' for full time unpaid work for 'exposure' or 'CV building' for which I'd have to have another job in order to pay for doing that job. YMBBT are far from alone in this but I'm glad it's being highlighted.
Not for profit companies and charities rely on volunteers however private companies are replying on this kind of 'volunteer' (again talking about the office work not events) to turn a profit. And that frustrates me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 7:31:50 GMT
Yes, this conversation is very different to the YMBBT conversations we've had before. We can go round and round for weeks on end (and, indeed, already have) about whether they should pay the performing volunteers or whether it's okay to use volunteers for the purposes of the performance, but I think interns in an office for at least two days a week, at least four hours a day, is much less ambiguous and they really SHOULD have been paid. Especially if they're targeting students, minimum wage really isn't that much - one extra passenger through the train per performance would very nearly pay for a single intern's four-hour-two-day-week.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 7:52:53 GMT
Indeed! exactly that.
Interestingly in the email list I talked about, someone in Edinburgh mentioned Fringe venues approaching their performing arts students for summer internships-obviously lots of opportunity there. And this lecturer said he now refuses to share things that don't contain some kind of payment to students-even if it's minimal profit share, and that they still get more than enough opportunities for their students. Obviously spoiled for choice in Edinburgh over the summer but if even the smallest companies can give their student staff some kind of financial remuneration then YMBBT can give their office monkeys some as well!
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Post by londonmzfitz on Jun 2, 2016 10:33:01 GMT
Indeed! exactly that. Interestingly in the email list I talked about, someone in Edinburgh mentioned Fringe venues approaching their performing arts students for summer internships-obviously lots of opportunity there. And this lecturer said he now refuses to share things that don't contain some kind of payment to students-even if it's minimal profit share, and that they still get more than enough opportunities for their students. Obviously spoiled for choice in Edinburgh over the summer but if even the smallest companies can give their student staff some kind of financial remuneration then YMBBT can give their office monkeys some as well! Whoa! Office monkeys? Ugh! I agree that unpaid internships are disagreeable, knowing first hand how hard it was for my niece to be able to do both the opportunities she did, and she couldn't have done it if she had to pay to live in London instead of using my spare room and if her Ma and Pa couldn't help her out financially (btw, Ma works for a not for profit/charitable housing association for vulnerable people and Pa is a high street hairdresser, not landed gentry types). But it is what is out there. As I said, my niece gained experience, she's 27 and self employed, just come back from working in foreign lands on events. I am not in a position to comment on the YMBBT staffing but there is a choice of doing it or not! And I truly don't think that Kate or Morgan on YMBBT are quids in on the whole experience - there are significant overheads to be met in technical equipment etc (I honestly can't comment more). For me it was a very positive experience and I'd do it again. If people are angry about not being paid for their work then - well, why did they do it? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 11:48:54 GMT
You know what I say that as someone who has worked really hard as a self-proclaimed 'office monkey' myself, I mean no disrespect by it-I simply mean the kind of positions that such internships usually cover.
I can see that I'm fighting a losing battle here, personally as someone who has many years experience in a diverse range of roles, that I am still being offered unpaid internships as a 'way in' to companies and as a serious career step infuriates me.
And as a teacher/lecturer it frustrates me that the only way current and former students get a 'start' is if they can afford to work for nothing.
I think it's exploitation, but I can see I will not penetrate the holy organisation here so I give up.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 11:56:19 GMT
Actually I'm not done. It's not about "well just don't work for free" the climate is such that even for so-called 'entry level' jobs you need incredibly specific expereince. And the only way to get that is increasingly through unpaid interhships. And we're not talking a couple of weeks while studying, we're talking months, even years. It's even at the point where to get a PAID internship (and I use that loosely as they get away with very little pay) you have to show several unpaid ones.
So yes you can just 'not do it' but by just not doing it, you're even further at the back of the employment queue. So more people do it, which perpetuates the idea that unless you've 'done your time' unpaid then you aren't 'experienced enough' and so on and so on.
I've said time and time again this isn't about this particular company necessarily but an endemic problem that needs addressing and investigating. Which is why I originally said I was glad BECTU are looking into it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 12:16:34 GMT
Self-proclaimed office monkey signing in over here too.
I get that not all interns are spoiled rich kids. I get that unpaid internships can provide vast and rich experience. I get we're living in an imperfect world and the arts are unfairly funded. That doesn't mean I'm going to roll over and say "fine, it's cool to not pay your interns". I understand why paying interns isn't as automatically easy as all that, but that doesn't make it any less wrong.
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Post by kathryn on Jun 2, 2016 15:50:47 GMT
This is a problem in my industry too, and a major reason why it remains so white and middle class. The bigger companies are making improvements by creating paid internships, but there aren't many of those around, and lots of people will end up having to work for free at some point to get some experience on their CV, usually at a string of smaller companies. Sometimes you don't even get basic travel expenses for those.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 7:22:48 GMT
Indeed Monkey!
It's also the fact that the lack of opportunities/economic situation means that old more 'experienced' and 'qualified' people are unable to get jobs at a level appropriate to their career stage and therefore are either taking or stuck in jobs that were previously 'entry level' positions.
So what was 'entry level, paid just enough to get by' which we all expected (back in the day!) has now become 'unpaid please get another job to support your job (or rely on Mum and Dad'
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Post by foxa on Jun 3, 2016 7:50:01 GMT
Emicardiff, I know what you mean.
I volunteered three times for YMBBT and came away with really mixed feelings about it (I think I've posted once before on another thread about this.) I wasn't looking at it as any sort of starter opportunity, I was really there out of curiosity influenced by the enthusiasm of a friend, I came in one day to help in the office (after receiving a raft of urgent begging texts and emails, only to find myself sat on the floor in a meeting and then them having nothing for me to do as what they really needed were electricians, etc.), once working FOH and the last time performing in a section. I had a great deal of admiration for so many people involved, but I felt a bit that people were being exploited - two of the nights, virtually all of the passengers were clearly very wealthy (one was a donor evening and one the passengers were heavily drawn from its corporate sponsors) and something about all these talented, eager, keen volunteers cavorting for their pleasure and no recompense made me uneasy(I know not all nights were like this - it was luck of the draw.)
However, I think there is a big difference between, say, volunteering at an arts organisation that you love and want to support and doing unpaid internships with the vague hope that it might lead to something later. Some unpaid internships do have really good training programmes built into them so that someone comes away with something tangible to offer employers, but if you are just doing all the jobs someone else doesn't want to do, for free, it begins to feel unfair. (My son had one where his intern duties at one arts organisation included cleaning up vomit, shoveling coal which had been loaded in the wrong place and sorting out drawers of mismatched screws.)
I think my hesitation in posting is that I think the YMBBT people really want to do something special. For the performance evenings (which is different than what Emicardiff is writing about) they tried to give the volunteers a positive experience. I also heard that YMBBT was responsible for several weddings - for some it has proved a good place to fall in love.
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