5,119 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on May 15, 2016 23:02:23 GMT
A lot of people are saddened on here by the early demise of Show Boat, that it didn't find its audience and described it is a classic. Which I agree with all that. But what is a classic, do we measure by how many awards its garnered? Does it appeal to a new audience today? I have put a list together what I consider to be the classics and hidden them in a spoiler, in case you want to Compile your own list, you welcome to look at mine and disagree.
{15 Musical Classics}
Showboat
Porgy and Bess
Anything Goes
Oklahoma
Carousel
South Pacific
The King and I
The Sound of Music
West Side Story
Fiddler on the Roof
Guys and Dolls
Annie Get Your Gun
Kiss Me, Kate
Oliver
Gypsy
Hello, Dolly!
The Rocky Horror Show
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209 posts
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Post by argon on May 16, 2016 8:17:24 GMT
Hamilton is set in an era earlier than showboat but is told by a contemporary musical genre rap-ish. When I saw Stephen Ward I felt the music was dated. I guess audiences taste's are changing
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 8:38:16 GMT
Back in the day, the style of music in musical theatre was basically the same style as the popular music of the day. But as popular music has moved on, musical theatre hasn't felt the need to catch up. There have been lots of exceptions, obviously, what with rock musicals and jukebox musicals and hip-hop musicals, but musical theatre as a musical style kinda settled into itself and didn't move with the times. So yeah, a lot of musicals are going to sound dated if they don't purposefully set out to align themselves with contemporary tastes.  |
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131 posts
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Post by primitivewallflower on May 16, 2016 13:01:18 GMT
Back in the day, the style of music in musical theatre was basically the same style as the popular music of the day. But as popular music has moved on, musical theatre hasn't felt the need to catch up. There have been lots of exceptions, obviously, what with rock musicals and jukebox musicals and hip-hop musicals, but musical theatre as a musical style kinda settled into itself and didn't move with the times. So yeah, a lot of musicals are going to sound dated if they don't purposefully set out to align themselves with contemporary tastes. Good music never really ages though. Show Boat, West Side Story, Chicago... their music is pretty clearly the product of a different time but that doesn't detract. To me, it's more common for musicals to age because of their themes or language. Take West Side Story: incredible music, but the slang in the book is now so antiquated it's downright distracting. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 13:03:11 GMT
Which is a perfect example of irony, as they specifically made up their own slang rather than using existing 1950s slang to prevent it from aging as quickly.  |
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131 posts
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Post by primitivewallflower on May 16, 2016 14:52:44 GMT
Which is a perfect example of irony, as they specifically made up their own slang rather than using existing 1950s slang to prevent it from aging as quickly. Yeah, it was a clever idea on paper that didn't ultimately work as intended, precisely because it was too successful: Laurents concocted his slang through the lens of the 1950s, so it still sounds firmly of that era. Anyway, it doesn't ruin the show for me and there are certainly weaker aspects of the book, but it's the most obviously dated. By contrast, when I hear "Ol' Man River", or "Cool", or "Age of Aquarius", or "Seasons of Love", I never think, "Damn these songs are dated", I think, "Damn these songs are awesome." The only time that sense ever creeps in is with that artificial piano sound you hear from synthesizers in the 1980s, e.g. on some Les Miz and ALW recordings (of course synthesizers are ubiquitous now but they were kind of stuck in the uncanny valley of sound in the beginning...). I don't see why we should expect hip-hop musicals to be any different. In fact, if you look at Hamilton for example, its rap songs are already predominantly of an older, "classic" hip-hop style. |
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2,711 posts
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Post by viserys on May 16, 2016 15:58:24 GMT
Back in the day, the style of music in musical theatre was basically the same style as the popular music of the day. But as popular music has moved on, musical theatre hasn't felt the need to catch up. There have been lots of exceptions, obviously, what with rock musicals and jukebox musicals and hip-hop musicals, but musical theatre as a musical style kinda settled into itself and didn't move with the times. So yeah, a lot of musicals are going to sound dated if they don't purposefully set out to align themselves with contemporary tastes. That's been exactly my thought too, though for me it doesn't make the classics appear dated but the new-ish musicals that stick with the classic sound of the 50's or - for me even more obvious - with the sound of the big belt pop operas of the 80's à la Les Miserables. Sure once in a while a truly outstanding song comes along but overall I'm pretty tired of the samey ballads. My problem with Stephen Ward wasn't so much the music though (it was kinda fitting for the 60's setting) but the awful book. It seems that whenever musicals -do- actually move with the times and manage to create the sound of contemporary mainstream music like Rent in the 90s and now Hamilton, they do make a huge impact and actually reach a younger audience. I dread a bunch of sub-par hip hop Hamilton-copycat musicals at the moment, but I think there's plenty of contemporary music going around that could and should be used. I'd also like to note that those musicals who reach the mainstream like Rent and Hamilton have pretty clever lyrics with some lovely messages like "No day but today" or "I'm not gonna throw away my shot" which elevates them (IMHO) above the endless deluge of sappy love songs. During the last weeks I've been struggling with some issues at work that gnawed at my confidence and really brought my mood down and I found that I kept singing "If mountains were easy to climb" since I had been listening to the Mrs Henderson CD quite a bit and I found the lyrics really inspiring and uplifting at that point. And who knows, once young people "discover" musicals, they might start appreciating older sounds too for what they were/are just as people often discover jazz or swing or even classical music only at a riper rage. Me, I've only started appreciating operas when I turned the corner of 40 and I'm now trying to catch up and work my way through the opera canon (and still plenty to go!) So why shouldn't teenagers weaned on Rent in the 90's not start taking an interest in the classics now they are reaching middle-age? |
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7,251 posts
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Post by Jon on May 16, 2016 16:21:28 GMT
Back in the day, the style of music in musical theatre was basically the same style as the popular music of the day. But as popular music has moved on, musical theatre hasn't felt the need to catch up. There have been lots of exceptions, obviously, what with rock musicals and jukebox musicals and hip-hop musicals, but musical theatre as a musical style kinda settled into itself and didn't move with the times. So yeah, a lot of musicals are going to sound dated if they don't purposefully set out to align themselves with contemporary tastes. Good music never really ages though. Show Boat, West Side Story, Chicago... their music is pretty clearly the product of a different time but that doesn't detract. To me, it's more common for musicals to age because of their themes or language. Take West Side Story: incredible music, but the slang in the book is now so antiquated it's downright distracting. West Side Story's issue IMO isn't the book but the fact it hasn't been allowed to evolve and change with revivals since the choreography has to stay the same and it's sort of become a museum piece which it shouldn't be, A Chorus Line has this issue to a lesser extent as well. |
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131 posts
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Post by primitivewallflower on May 16, 2016 16:21:45 GMT
I'd also like to note that those musicals who reach the mainstream like Rent and Hamilton have pretty clever lyrics with some lovely messages like "No day but today" or "I'm not gonna throw away my shot" which elevates them (IMHO) above the endless deluge of sappy love songs. During the last weeks I've been struggling with some issues at work that gnawed at my confidence and really brought my mood down and I found that I kept singing "If mountains were easy to climb" since I had been listening to the Mrs Henderson CD quite a bit and I found the lyrics really inspiring and uplifting at that point. That's a great story. I think the reason it takes clever musicals to be musical watersheds is that audiences are exposed to a greater amount of media and are getting more sophisticated. Young audiences in particular can smell phoniness a mile away. So pushing the boundaries of musical theatre, folding in popular genres, and expanding beyond traditional audiences means not relying on the conventional suspensions of disbelief that frequent audiences get used to. |
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131 posts
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Post by primitivewallflower on May 16, 2016 16:24:12 GMT
West Side Story's issue IMO isn't the book but the fact it hasn't been allowed to evolve and change with revivals since the choreography has to stay the same and it's sort of become a museum piece which it shouldn't be, A Chorus Line has this issue to a lesser extent as well. That's interesting. I don't know if I agree (I think the book is pretty cringe-worthy) but will think about it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 17:17:38 GMT
Oh good, viserys got what I was scrabbling for, and explained it so much more eloquently and beautifully. It's not so much that the old musicals date (as you all say, good music is good music is good music) as it is the newer musicals that emulate the classic style immediately sound more dated than a musical that goes "NAH I'M GONNA DO *THIS* INSTEAD". |
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1,103 posts
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Post by mallardo on May 16, 2016 18:47:29 GMT
Which is a perfect example of irony, as they specifically made up their own slang rather than using existing 1950s slang to prevent it from aging as quickly. I've never heard this. Do you have any examples of made up slang from West Side Story? |
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