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Post by d'James on Jul 27, 2016 19:42:57 GMT
Wasn't it written as an album? So, intended to be played many times, and not to have to make immediate sense in one sitting. That's a bit silly when turning it into a show. They have to assume that every time they mount a production that there'll be some people at each show who won't know the story beforehand. There's a whole lot more choice out there today in terms of TV channels and music services so you could completely avoid the music and the movie of this show nowadays. I try never to listen to soundtracks or reading a synopsis before seeing a show. Obviously with this show (and shows like Titanic) you know the ending, but the journey along the way should be easy to follow for new attendees As I enjoy Musical Theatre and have some artists's CDs, of course I was familiar with some of the songs, but not all. If I wasn't (very) vaguely familiar with the Bible (or The Da Vinci Code) and I hadn't heard I Don't Know How To Love Him, the Mary Magdalene character would be completely unknown to me. When Pilate walked on in the first half I had literally know idea who he was. |
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Post by Stasia on Jul 28, 2016 7:42:37 GMT
I try never to listen to soundtracks or reading a synopsis before seeing a show. Obviously with this show (and shows like Titanic) you know the ending, but the journey along the way should be easy to follow for new attendees If I know nothing about the plot, I am reading a synopsis beforehand. If my background knowledge is enough, I go unprepared. I think this is the case where everyone decides for himself whether he needs some digging into the subject or not. And I am pretty sure that some things in JSC are supposed to be what they call "common knowledge". (Of course not everyone is obliged to know these things but people can decide whether want to prepare themselves for a show or not, right?) |
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Post by Stasia on Jul 28, 2016 7:55:47 GMT
Oh, and I can't help sharing this anecdote (which you all probably know), but I сan't decide whether I should put it here or at the other musical's thread  Three blondes died and are at the pearly gates of heaven. St. Peter tells them that they can enter the gates if they can answer one simple question. St. Peter asks the first blonde, "What is Easter?" The blonde replies, "Oh, that's easy! It's the holiday in November when everyone gets together, eats turkey, and are thankful and stuff..." "Wrong!," replies St. Peter, and proceeds to ask the second blonde the same question, "What is Easter?" The second blonde replies, "Easter is the holiday in December when we put up a nice tree, exchange presents, and drink eggnog." St. Peter looks at the second blonde, shakes his head in disgust, tells her she's wrong, and then peers over his glasses at the third blonde and asks, "What is Easter?" The third blonde smiles confidently and looks St. Peter in the eyes, "I know what Easter is." "Oh?" says St. Peter, incredulously. "Easter is the Christian holiday, that coincides with the Jewish celebration of Passover. Jesus and his disciples were eating at the last supper. Then the Romans took him to be crucified and he was stabbed in the side, made to wear a crown of thorns, and was hung on a cross with nails through his hands. He was buried in a nearby cave which was sealed off by a large boulder." St. Peter smiles broadly with delight. Then the third blonde continues, "Every year the boulder is moved aside so that Jesus can come out...and, if he sees his shadow, there will be six more weeks of winter." |
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Post by d'James on Jul 28, 2016 11:46:55 GMT
I try never to listen to soundtracks or reading a synopsis before seeing a show. Obviously with this show (and shows like Titanic) you know the ending, but the journey along the way should be easy to follow for new attendees If I know nothing about the plot, I am reading a synopsis beforehand. If my background knowledge is enough, I go unprepared. I think this is the case where everyone decides for himself whether he needs some digging into the subject or not. And I am pretty sure that some things in JSC are supposed to be what they call "common knowledge". (Of course not everyone is obliged to know these things but people can decide whether want to prepare themselves for a show or not, right?) I completely disagree about synopses. The whole point of Theatre shows is to tell a story. If things are unclear it's not written well enough. I've never had the problems I had on Tuesday night in any other show in my life and I never read synopses. If it's a historical play I might, *MIGHT*, try and find out a bit about the period, but deliberately not read the exact information that I think might be contained in the plot of the show. It's not like it's a case of things being ambiguous and for the audience to make up their minds, the storytelling just isn't fully there. I do agree, and have already stated, that some of the the Bible events are common knowledge but not the detail the show goes, in terms of characters and certain events. There is a definite assumption of knowledge which is only going to get less and less as the country becomes less and less religious. |
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Post by d'James on Jul 28, 2016 12:01:07 GMT
Timely, AND funny, Stasia, well done! Looks like you've had your own resurrection too, much better than the "they shot me" one. I've changed the names to Peter / Simon to make it clearer. So what did you think you didn't get, d'James? Mainly the first half. Pilate just appeared and sang a song and I had know idea who he was. Also the scene in the temple/church was very unclear as I don't know that story. The staging didn't help (I won't spoil how they do it). I got a slight idea from the lyrics what was going on but had to have it fully explained to me. These are specifics, but in general the show jumps from scene to scene without a lot of explanation. Even Mary Magdalene needed more explanation, I felt. I've seen loads more shows this year than ever before and this show is the only one that wasn't clear. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 12:23:13 GMT
Mainly the first half. Pilate just appeared and sang a song and I had know idea who he was. Yes, someone should have greeted him with: "Good morning, Mr Pilate". Or he could have worn a large name badge. |
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Post by Stasia on Jul 28, 2016 12:32:03 GMT
If I know nothing about the plot, I am reading a synopsis beforehand. If my background knowledge is enough, I go unprepared. I think this is the case where everyone decides for himself whether he needs some digging into the subject or not. And I am pretty sure that some things in JSC are supposed to be what they call "common knowledge". (Of course not everyone is obliged to know these things but people can decide whether want to prepare themselves for a show or not, right?) I completely disagree about synopses. The whole point of Theatre shows is to tell a story. If things are unclear it's not written well enough. I've never had the problems I had on Tuesday night in any other show in my life and I never read synopses. If it's a historical play I might, *MIGHT*, try and find out a bit about the period, but deliberately not read the exact information that I think might be contained in the plot of the show. It's not like it's a case of things being ambiguous and for the audience to make up their minds, the storytelling just isn't fully there. I do agree, and have already stated, that some of the the Bible events are common knowledge but not the detail the show goes, in terms of characters and certain events. There is a definite assumption of knowledge which is only going to get less and less as the country becomes less and less religious. I specifically mentioned that it is good to read additional information if your (or mine or someone else's) background knowledge is not enough for understanding. If it was me who couldn't get who the Pilate or Mary Magdalene is I guess I would not be saying that JCS is "unclear and not enough well-written". And I am pretty sure that knowledge about what's going on in the JCS is not a specific religious, it is just_common_knowledge that goes with some basic education. Like, people may know loads of facts about Greek and Roman gods without sharing religious beliefs or ancient Greeks and Romans. 40-something years ago, when the recording got to Russia, there was a lot of anti-religious propaganda in USSR. And JCS was the way young people heard the story about God's son... They learned through it, as there were no Bibles available. So they got educated through it instead of blaming Webber and Rice for writing about something they don't know in a foreign language... |
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Post by d'James on Jul 28, 2016 12:40:59 GMT
I completely disagree about synopses. The whole point of Theatre shows is to tell a story. If things are unclear it's not written well enough. I've never had the problems I had on Tuesday night in any other show in my life and I never read synopses. If it's a historical play I might, *MIGHT*, try and find out a bit about the period, but deliberately not read the exact information that I think might be contained in the plot of the show. It's not like it's a case of things being ambiguous and for the audience to make up their minds, the storytelling just isn't fully there. I do agree, and have already stated, that some of the the Bible events are common knowledge but not the detail the show goes, in terms of characters and certain events. There is a definite assumption of knowledge which is only going to get less and less as the country becomes less and less religious. I specifically mentioned that it is good to read additional information if your (or mine or someone else's) background knowledge is not enough for understanding. If it was me who couldn't get who the Pilate or Mary Magdalene is I guess I would not be saying that JCS is "unclear and not enough well-written". And I am pretty sure that knowledge about what's going on in the JCS is not a specific religious, it is just_common_knowledge that goes with some basic education. Like, people may know loads of facts about Greek and Roman gods without sharing religious beliefs or ancient Greeks and Romans. 40-something years ago, when the recording got to Russia, there was a lot of anti-religious propaganda in USSR. And JCS was the way young people heard the story about God's son... They learned through it, as there were no Bibles available. So they got educated through it instead of blaming Webber and Rice for writing about something they don't know in a foreign language... Wow. I really don't like your tone, insinuating I'm not basically educated, extremely rude. I've answered most of what you've said about three times already so I'm going to stop trying to help you see things from my point of view. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 12:43:39 GMT
Turn the other cheek!
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Post by Stasia on Jul 28, 2016 13:00:33 GMT
Wow. I really don't like your tone, insinuating I'm not basically educated, extremely rude. I've answered most of what you've said about three times already so I'm going to stop trying to help you see things from my point of view. Not sure where you read all these  Please don't forget that English is not my native language and I may not be as nuanced as you. I was basically talking about my perception on getting the knowledge on that particular story and JCS the musical. For me, it is totally different to discussing a show about Fanny Brice or Donna and Dynamos specifically because of what this musical is based on. |
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Post by Michael on Jul 28, 2016 13:10:46 GMT
I'm with d'James. I think no background research should be necessary to follow and get a show. If you don't understand a show without, then the book writer has done a bad job. When I saw JCS earlier this year in Germany, I had the same problems and did not understand what was going on on stage and why. So apparently I must be uneducated as well. Being an atheist, I only have a rough idea about the bible and its biggest "events", but no deep knowledge about the stories what seems to be necessary to follow JCS. |
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Post by d'James on Jul 28, 2016 13:12:09 GMT
Wow. I really don't like your tone, insinuating I'm not basically educated, extremely rude. I've answered most of what you've said about three times already so I'm going to stop trying to help you see things from my point of view. Not sure where you read all these Please don't forget that English is not my native language and I may not be as nuanced as you. I was basically talking about my perception on getting the knowledge on that particular story and JCS the musical. For me, it is totally different to discussing a show about Fanny Brice or Donna and Dynamos specifically because of what this musical is based on. I will accept what you say about the language barrier. We'll have to agree to disagree about this show. Gotta run, long drive ahead. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 13:41:06 GMT
Mainly the first half. Pilate just appeared and sang a song and I had know idea who he was. Yes, someone should have greeted him with: "Good morning, Mr Pilate". Or he could have worn a large name badge. Or to make things obvious, he could just have worn an eye-patch and a skull and crossbones hat shouting "Arrrrrrr" to Jesus. Oh hang on . . . |
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Post by max on Jul 28, 2016 20:41:32 GMT
RE. the "name badge", the original London production had what seemed then like very high tech captions (a scrolling dot matrix display like you'd now see in the window of a chemist lol). So just the words 'Pilate's House' would have let you know who he was, and by being named you'd know that he's going to become a major player even if he seems random and unrelated now.
Also, in a non modern dress production you'd see his status through dress (though in the modern dress recent stadium tour a flunkie/PA let you see that, so there are ways).
All you really need to know is he's a high status man separate from Jesus's followers. I can see that without prior knowledge this production doesn't supply that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 21:32:19 GMT
RE. the "name badge", the original London production had what seemed then like very high tech captions (a scrolling dot matrix display like you'd now see in the window of a chemist lol). So just the words 'Pilate's House' would have let you know who he was, and by being named you'd know that he's going to become a major player even if he seems random and unrelated now. Also, in a non modern dress production you'd see his status through dress (though in the modern dress recent stadium tour a flunkie/PA let you see that, so there are ways). All you really need to know is he's a high status man separate from Jesus's followers. I can see that without prior knowledge this production doesn't supply that. In the Regent's Park version don't they suggest that he's a bit fancy schmancy with the mask/head thing he carries around though? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 21:53:28 GMT
We're just back and I'm in bits. Best thing I've seen all year. Loved Declan Bennett and the street dancey choreography was fantastic.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 22:01:26 GMT
According to Baz, a transfer decision will be made next week! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 22:06:29 GMT
Had heard this earlier today and have heard possible theatres it's looking at. Must be getting good feedback it decide on a transfer that quickly!!
I'm sure they would have to change the set, no? The set wouldn't fit in a proscenium arch theatre - would it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 22:08:24 GMT
Had heard this earlier today and have heard possible theatres it's looking at. Must be getting good feedback it decide on a transfer that quickly!! I'm sure they would have to change the set, no? The set wouldn't fit in a proscenium arch theatre - would it? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 22:10:38 GMT
Had heard this earlier today and have heard possible theatres it's looking at. Must be getting good feedback it decide on a transfer that quickly!! I'm sure they would have to change the set, no? The set wouldn't fit in a proscenium arch theatre - would it? I haven't seen the show either but judging from the photographs, the set looks quite tall and wide and would probably have to be changed for an indoor theatre - I would presume? Not 100% sure though |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 22:18:46 GMT
Yeah the set would need to be adapted for West End!
Really can't praise this production enough - for me the musical event of the year, over Sunset Boulevard.
Not my fave ALW, but this production is the best I have ever seen it, by quite a long way. The performances are incredible, the band superb, the staging totally absorbing and the choreography deserves an Olivier.
Quick question - was the RUG Gale Edwards touring version (and the similar DVD) different to the RUG Gale Edwards Lyceum version that it followed? I had always assumed they were the same as they were done in quick succession by the same team, but in fact pics I have seen recently of the West End version look quite different! I saw the tour but not the Lyceum - one of my big regrets. Can someone who saw it let me know what the Lyceum version was like?
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Post by d'James on Jul 28, 2016 22:38:43 GMT
I wonder who they could get to take over the role of Judas, as Tyrone is doing Dreamgirls isn't he?
Anyway, what's the best Cast Recording to buy?
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Post by max on Jul 28, 2016 22:55:02 GMT
Yeah the set would need to be adapted for West End! Really can't praise this production enough - for me the musical event of the year, over Sunset Boulevard. Not my fave ALW, but this production is the best I have ever seen it, by quite a long way. The performances are incredible, the band superb, the staging totally absorbing and the choreography deserves an Olivier. Quick question - was the RUG Gale Edwards touring version (and the similar DVD) different to the RUG Gale Edwards Lyceum version that it followed? I had always assumed they were the same as they were done in quick succession by the same team, but in fact pics I have seen recently of the West End version look quite different! I saw the tour but not the Lyceum - one of my big regrets. Can someone who saw it let me know what the Lyceum version was like? Yes the productions were quite different. The Lyceum production was biblically 'accurate' so there's no way it would have had the pro-Jesus modern day placards of the tour version. The Lyceum stage was sandy/rocky in colour with some low Roman arches - I think there was some onstage audience seating. The choreography was boring as hell. I seem to remember ALW saying he'd always wanted to see it done that way (Lyceum); though later the rock album roots were cited as how it works best. Tbh I didn't like either of Gale Edwards' productions. Steve Balsamo made the Lyceum production special though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 22:59:34 GMT
Yes the productions were quite different. The Lyceum production was biblically 'accurate' so there's no way it would have had the pro-Jesus modern day placards of the tour version. The Lyceum stage was sandy/rocky in colour with some low Roman arches - I think there was some onstage audience seating. The choreography was boring as hell. I seem to remember ALW saying he'd always wanted to see it done that way (Lyceum); though later the rock album roots were cited as how it works best. Tbh I didn't like either of Gale Edwards' productions. Steve Balsamo made the Lyceum production special though. Ah cool thanks for the info. Interesting that they changed it so much for the tour. I think these were the first (only?) ALW/RUG produced stage versions so guess makes sense that that's the way he always wanted to see it (though of course he says that about the latest version of everything). That 1996 OLC remains my fave JCS recording anyway. |
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Post by max on Jul 28, 2016 23:06:54 GMT
Yes the productions were quite different. The Lyceum production was biblically 'accurate' so there's no way it would have had the pro-Jesus modern day placards of the tour version. The Lyceum stage was sandy/rocky in colour with some low Roman arches - I think there was some onstage audience seating. The choreography was boring as hell. I seem to remember ALW saying he'd always wanted to see it done that way (Lyceum); though later the rock album roots were cited as how it works best. Tbh I didn't like either of Gale Edwards' productions. Steve Balsamo made the Lyceum production special though. Ah cool thanks for the info. Interesting that they changed it so much for the tour. I think these were the first (only?) ALW/RUG produced stage versions so guess makes sense that that's the way he always wanted to see it (though of course he says that about the latest version of everything). That 1996 OLC remains my fave JCS recording anyway. Yes, by listening to it you're getting the best of it. And watch Steve Balsamo's incredible Gethsemane on YouTube (version recorded at Ahoy 2004). Tour was odd as it was aspects of Lyceum but overlayed with some modern bits they'd foresworn before. Haha re ALW pronouncements : This is my best forum post ever. |
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