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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 18:15:42 GMT
Almost as boring as the final concept, ironically. KKA's self-riotousness is overwhelming here. To me, his vision of the production sounds confused and contradicts the summary on the MIF website. Also makes for a great watch, if you just the first 5 seconds. .. Well, just watched the video. I’ll go with an open mind on Saturday afternoon when I go and watch it. It will certainly be an interesting afternoon! Don't forget they want to you feel like you're at a festival, so bring your wellys and expect to be covered in piss. |
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Post by david on Jul 3, 2019 18:17:22 GMT
Well, just watched the video. I’ll go with an open mind on Saturday afternoon when I go and watch it. It will certainly be an interesting afternoon! Don't forget they want to you feel like you're at a festival, so bring your wellys and expect to be covered in piss. If they expect me to do any dancing they can do one. I’ll get involved in audience participation, but no dancing! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 18:20:32 GMT
Don't forget they want to you feel like you're at a festival, so bring your wellys and expect to be covered in piss. If they expect me to do any dancing they can do one. I’ll get involved in audience participation, but no dancing! Maybe as 'participation' they expect the audience to write and direct the show and they'll take all the credit...  |
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Post by xanady on Jul 3, 2019 18:42:36 GMT
ali973...a few things...read my post more carefully,please...I didn’t say anything about the cases being the same so please don’t infer this.I said that the protests about CP showed what can be achieved if people raise their voices...also you are down-playing the seriousness of what could be the issue of someone’s intellectual property being ‘took’ as Baz describes it.Empathy is important here.Empathy tells me how angry I would feel if I was in the same position as the two girls.They are emotionally traumatised by this.
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Post by londonpostie on Jul 3, 2019 19:41:01 GMT
Irrespective of who is right - or more right - it is IP, and made more valuable by the involvement of Elba. That won't have got past many involved here.
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Post by Mark on Jul 3, 2019 21:32:48 GMT
Now getting news coverage on BBC News. This story is getting a lot of coverage!
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Post by zahidf on Jul 3, 2019 22:55:27 GMT
Now getting news coverage on BBC News. This story is getting a lot of coverage! Yup. It seems like something which isn't going to go away because of the Elba connection |
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Post by david on Jul 3, 2019 23:12:55 GMT
Just received an email about the performance I’m seeing on Saturday. A run time of 90 mins and warnings that there may be loud noises, flashing lights, smoke, strong language and scenes of an adult nature. Also - Come ready to dance before the performance begins ( I think I’ll be giving that bit a miss).
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Post by smallperson on Jul 3, 2019 23:13:15 GMT
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 4, 2019 2:35:08 GMT
Just received an email about the performance I’m seeing on Saturday. A run time of 90 mins and warnings that there may be loud noises, flashing lights, smoke, strong language and scenes of an adult nature. Also - Come ready to dance before the performance begins ( I think I’ll be giving that bit a miss). Anyone inviting me to dance would be invited in return to get stuffed. People have bought tickets to observe, not to participate. If you want lots of people dancing, hire dancers. Sounds absolutely hideous. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2019 6:08:24 GMT
Just received an email about the performance I’m seeing on Saturday. A run time of 90 mins and warnings that there may be loud noises, flashing lights, smoke, strong language and scenes of an adult nature. Also - Come ready to dance before the performance begins ( I think I’ll be giving that bit a miss). Anyone inviting me to dance would be invited in return to get stuffed. People have bought tickets to observe, not to participate. If you want lots of people dancing, hire dancers. Sounds absolutely hideous. Go, don't dance and if they ask you why you're not moving, say you're being the 'Tree'. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2019 7:58:21 GMT
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Post by zahidf on Jul 4, 2019 8:54:52 GMT
That's horrendous reading through it: 20 minutes to attend to someone with medical issues???
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Post by kathryn on Jul 4, 2019 8:58:58 GMT
I wonder how this going to pan out Cancellation of show Court case Protests during the performances Resignation ? Most likely none of the above - it'll blow over and the production will carry on more or less as usual. Hopefully the women will raise enough funds to cover their legal fees and will have raised their profile enough to be offered future work. |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 4, 2019 10:31:59 GMT
You know, many people really are astonishingly lax when it comes to contracts for their work - even people you'd expect to know better. I've just had to explain to a journal editor that an exclusive license form they filled in with the article title just listed as 'Article' and without their co-author's name on it isn't actually a legally binding exclusive license between us as publisher and her and her co-author to publish the article, since it doesn't actually list the title of the article or the names of its authors.
Oh, and it wasn't actually signed.
And that's just about the most basic contract you can sign for a piece of writing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2019 11:39:44 GMT
Go, don't dance and if they ask you why you're not moving, say you're being the 'Tree'. Oh, I think it will be "school disco central" anyway - everybody standing around the edges, with just a few exhibitionists doing anything else. With Kwame running and sliding about on his knees? |
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Post by princeton on Jul 4, 2019 11:47:54 GMT
The good news - and let's try to find some - is that Sarah and Tori have already exceeded their original aim of raising £12,000 partly to cover their legal fees, and also to start funding their Burn Bright project. The more money they raise the stronger Burn Bright will be when it officially launches. You can donate or register support on their website: www.burnbright.org.uk/2-ways-to-get-involvedI agree with Kathryn - people are really lax when it comes to contracts - and I wonder whether the part of the problem stems from sometime said in the first sentence of their timeline "Idris Elba, a friend of Tori’s". I know from experience that working with friends is great - being employed by friends is completely different. There is a shift in the power dynamic, you're no longer equal partners, your friend is paying you, you are their employee. Often this is all masked behind 'it's not me - it's my company which is employing/commissioning you' coupled with verbal contracts and inadequate formal paperwork - because there's no way on earth a mate would shaft you. And then things change, the company/project gets bigger and you have less regular interaction with your friend/boss. Other people are brought in - you find yourself less important - a smaller cog in a bigger wheel. Your friend continues to talk to you, your employer does their business interactions through a third party. Then you find out that where you thought the company was heading isn't the direction of travel, and your contributions are less valued and valuable than before. So you jump ship or wait to be pushed - because your contract is lacking in detail and doesn't guarantee you the role or the rights you though you had - or the protection you'd assumed - and leaving is the only option for your own personal wellbeing. I'd made sure that the contracts were watertight - so was able to walk away amicably even though I'd given an awful lot of myself to the project. But I know people who have seen friendships destroyed, careers ruined and more - all because what started as mates working together ended as power play between unequal partners. The Social Network is a good example of where it can go horribly wrong, albeit with much more money involved. I'm not saying that is what happened in this case - but friend and paymaster is seldom a good mix. |
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Jul 4, 2019 12:21:18 GMT
I don’t think I’ve ever had a theatre commission where the contract was signed before starting work.
My last play was published and on bookshelves before the contract was signed.
Shocking how much laxity is the norm.
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Post by zahidf on Jul 4, 2019 14:59:19 GMT
Hmmmm
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Post by kathryn on Jul 4, 2019 15:07:03 GMT
That's a bit sparse on detail, isn't it? Considering the level of detail involved in the original accusation.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jul 4, 2019 15:32:03 GMT
What is it with these two both referencing their dead fathers? It is in no way relevant to what they did. And all to do with trying to manipulate the reaction to be more sympathetic towards them.
I find his statement to be bordering on the distasteful
Why would anyone want to work with an ego like that?
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Post by jadnoop on Jul 4, 2019 15:50:55 GMT
YV and KKA (and now IE) may not have handled this the best, but for what it's worth my feeling is that no matter how they had responded it would have been called out as being insufficient. They've suggested meeting publicly somehow, which is being framed here as some sort of intimidation tactic, but if they'd suggested a private meeting then I've little doubt the board would have seen that as a secretive and legalistic delay tactic. Similarly, talk about personal circumstances is emotional manipulation, while being formal is cold and legalistic.
It's easy to suggest that credit and/or financial restitution should be given, but since no one here has actually seen the scripts or the agreements made between the parties, I don't see why board members are so adamant that this is the right or fair course of action. Of course we each need to make decisions about what we support based on what information we have, but it strikes me as hugely premature to act as if this is open & shut. After all, giving credit & money wouldn’t be ‘fair’ if it turns out that their involvement wasn’t as much as has been assumed.
The issue of credit is contentious in pretty much every job (not just the arts), and it's certainly true that those at the top have much more power than those coming up. Depending on your interests, we probably each have strong opinions on the origins of Led Zeppelin's Stairway To Heaven, the work of Jocelyn Bell Burnell, the rewrites of screenwriters like Andrew Kevin Walker, ghostwriters of books, the artwork in the boardgame Scythe, the creation of Facebook, the influence of comics on The Matrix and The Fifth Element and so on… But these issues really aren't clearcut at all, not least because how 'original' any story, idea, song, etc. is, and the level of contribution to justify credit and/or money is not an objective thing ethically or legally.
The power that the public has through things like social media is surely a good thing. However, while the legal approach to dealing with these things certainly benefits those with the money, I’m not convinced that this ‘trial in public’ is always better. Not least because it encourages us to make strong opinions based on limited (and often uneven) information, generally based on emotion rather than facts. And while the net result might usually be positive, the extreme of the flipside is things like the recent debacles with Zimmerman’s address on Twitter or the Boston marathon bomber on Reddit, or more broadly the rise in anti-vax.
My guess is that the end result of this will be some form of credit and financial restitution. And this will probably be the right thing. However, I can’t help but think that even if the writers had no actual ground, the YV would give them credit anyway, since this is what the public demands.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 4, 2019 16:01:19 GMT
Anyway Idris says THE TRUTH in upper case. So it must be. 🙄
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Post by londonmzfitz on Jul 4, 2019 16:14:49 GMT
My thoughts.
Does anyone on this board think that Tori and Sarah haven't been done over on this project? Their account was compelling. Statement from Kwame was unconvincing and invoking a dead father tasteless. Now that was poor writing! Young Vic offering ££'s stinks.
The phrase in Idris's statement "In order to obtain a commission we all understood that it had to take a new direction and re-emphasise the original IP from Mi Mandela and start again". "We" being, presumably, the producers, financiers and Idris and Kwame. Tori and Sarah were involved from the start, had done workshops; hellfire, Jo Riding was involved in the workshops! "We" sits very badly with me. "Us" and "Them".
And another dead father - even more poor - "To this day I still haven't been to the place where my father was born. I share this background to offer some perspective on how offensive and troubling these claims are to me and my family". OFFENSIVE!?! To me AND MY FAMILY"?"
And the comments as to why so many have their boxers in a bunch over this - I love to go to the theatre, I love to be involved in forums such as this. To shrug and say "This is the business of Show" is a cop-out. I don't want to see my hard earned £'s supporting behaviour such as this.
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Post by sf on Jul 4, 2019 16:24:11 GMT
What is it with these two both referencing their dead fathers? It is in no way relevant to what they did. And all to do with trying to manipulate the reaction to be more sympathetic towards them. I find his statement to be bordering on the distasteful I find that to be more than "bordering on" distasteful. Or to put it another way - my father died seventeen years ago, my mother died six weeks ago. In neither instance did it occur to me to use my bereavement as an alibi for treating other people less well than I should have. As I said somewhere else, bereavement is something we all experience. It's not a get-out-of-jail-free card. |
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