Iconic? Phantom vs. Les Mis

[BurlyBeaR]

Picking upon a comment by @remark that there’s a buzz amongst non theatregoing workmates around the new Phantom tour which wasn’t apparent for Les Miserables and other recent ‘big’ tours, I’m wondering whether that’s representative and if so, why. 

They've both had similar trajectories from original long running WE productions into very successful earlier tours, the controversial film versions and more recent modified productions going out on tour. But is one more ‘iconic’ than the other?

[Mark]

I think Les Mis has been a bit overly visible/saturated recently. If someone on reality show is going to do something from a musical, it's likely to be Les Mis. Phantom seems much grander.

[winonaforever]

I've just seen both of them (for the first time ever) in the past few months, so I'm at the stage of being excited about both shows, when they must seem like old news to most people.
I had watched the Les Mis film on TV because I know some of the actors in it; also I really like Amanda Seyfried, but the show felt very different.
For me, Phantom felt more iconic and was the greater experience, I'm really keen to see it again soon.
I AM going to the Les Mis concert though.

[missthelma]

Les Mis seems to have been flogged to within an inch of it's life, I can think of three possibly four tv/film versions in the last 20 years or so. I am surprised we have not had an animated version featuring chipmunks. It also seems to shift about a lot in theatres and the cast changes seem to make news (well not front page, but you know what I mean) which keeps it's profile high. I can also think of loads of non regular theatre going people I know who have seen it and rave about it.

Phantom meanwhile just seems to quietly get on with it's business, the one film version disappeared almost without trace, it's been at the same location since the Middle Ages and on pain of death I could not tell you it's recent cast changes. I know of nobody from the same group above who has seen it or wants to.

Phantom feels like the monarchy, Les Mis like the government.

[xanady]

TheatreMonkey,I thought that your emotional attachment to Lot 665 may have swayed you to favour the Phantom.Joking apart,the very opening of Phantom with the auction and then ‘that’ moment when some illumination is brought to the proceedings still remains for me one of the most awe-inspiring and powerful moments in MT history.

[londonmzfitz]

Jun 26, 2019 14:48:11 GMT xanady said:

TheatreMonkey,I thought that your emotional attachment to Lot 665 may have swayed you to favour the Phantom.Joking apart,the very opening of Phantom with the auction and then ‘that’ moment when some illumination is brought to the proceedings still remains for me one of the most awe-inspiring and powerful moments in MT history.

My ex-ma-in-law scowling at the stage pre-curtain up with items covered in dust clothes ... "do you think they ever clean those things, they look filthy".  Les Mis - "urgh don't want to see that, people dressed in rags".

[sleepflower]

Speaking as a relative newcomer to musical theatre, I was aware of Les Mis before Phantom; I saw the film and then that led me to the stage show, and I had heard some of the songs in talent shows etc. I was aware of Phantom but I didn't know the plot or any songs from it until I saw it live. It has less of a profile in popular culture imo.

A friend recently asked me what musical I would recommend to someone who had never seen one before, I think I'd always go for Les Mis. I think it's more accessible in terms of themes and music, although I loved Phantom too. 

[crowblack]

Jun 26, 2019 11:08:48 GMT missthelma said:

I am surprised we have not had an animated version featuring chipmunks.

There is a Muppet version, mercifully short but does include Mr Snuffleupagus as the elephant.

[TallPaul]

I've now seen Les Miserables 10 times, but Phantom only once. Sitting in the audience at Her Majesty's very much felt like I was at a tourist attraction.

[Jon]

I think ALW having control over Phantom means it's very unlikely we'll see the original production replaced anytime soon

[Dawnstar]

Jun 26, 2019 16:53:59 GMT sleepflower said:

Speaking as a relative newcomer to musical theatre, I was aware of Les Mis before Phantom; I saw the film and then that led me to the stage show, and I had heard some of the songs in talent shows etc. I was aware of Phantom but I didn't know the plot or any songs from it until I saw it live. It has less of a profile in popular culture imo.

A friend recently asked me what musical I would recommend to someone who had never seen one before, I think I'd always go for Les Mis. I think it's more accessible in terms of themes and music, although I loved Phantom too. 

I had it the other way around. I first listed to my aunt's double cassette set of the Phantom OCR as a child & a few years later bought it on CD & listened to it loads over the years so I pretty much knew the entire show by heart before I finally saw it live for the first time in 2008. Les Mis I first saw in 2009 with almost no prior knowledge of it, having tried to listen to the cast recording beforehand & given up because I couldn't work out what was going on (though I had no problems with following the plot when I saw it). I wonder if the difference is due to timing? Has Les Mis become much better known to the general public in the last decade than it was prior to that?

[Jon]

It's interesting that on both Broadway and the West End, Phantom has stayed in the same theatre and the irony is that ALW was reluctant to put it in Her Majesty's Theatre as it had bad luck there with Jeeves.

[Deleted]

As has been said already, Les Mis has been flogged to death and back over the last few years (decade?) whilst Phantom has continue quietly but successfully.

sleepflower's comments about Les Mis being more of a profile in popular culture are interesting. I'd agree to an extent, BBC's Les Miserables drama series strengthening this point. However, I do feel Phantom's story/novel is more internationally and culturally recognised, this being emphasised by references to the story/musical in The Simpsons and Family Guy. Other episodic series' where recurring characters have a different story/journey per episode, like Goosebumps, have used the Phantom story as a narrative, which may explain why people may be more aware/subconciously aware of Phantom.

Another element, quite small, but still significant in terms of cultural acceptance of Phantom is Halloween, with Phantom-type costumes available to buy/rent. Phantom is literally 'inside peoples minds' annually.

But also currently Les Mis is on it's 4th UK tour (granted one was an anniversary concert tour) whilst this will be Phantoms 3rd, also reverting to it's original format last seen on the UK road almost 20 years ago, which I think may account for some of the excitement.

[Jon]

I don't think there has been a straight adaptation of Phantom of the Opera for quite some time. After seeing the BBC Les Miserables TV series, I wonder if there is a way to do Phantom that's closer to the novel.

[sleepflower]

Jun 26, 2019 18:13:38 GMT Dawnstar said:

Jun 26, 2019 16:53:59 GMT sleepflower said:

Speaking as a relative newcomer to musical theatre, I was aware of Les Mis before Phantom; I saw the film and then that led me to the stage show, and I had heard some of the songs in talent shows etc. I was aware of Phantom but I didn't know the plot or any songs from it until I saw it live. It has less of a profile in popular culture imo.

A friend recently asked me what musical I would recommend to someone who had never seen one before, I think I'd always go for Les Mis. I think it's more accessible in terms of themes and music, although I loved Phantom too. 

I had it the other way around. I first listed to my aunt's double cassette set of the Phantom OCR as a child & a few years later bought it on CD & listened to it loads over the years so I pretty much knew the entire show by heart before I finally saw it live for the first time in 2008. Les Mis I first saw in 2009 with almost no prior knowledge of it, having tried to listen to the cast recording beforehand & given up because I couldn't work out what was going on (though I had no problems with following the plot when I saw it). I wonder if the difference is due to timing? Has Les Mis become much better known to the general public in the last decade than it was prior to that?

I think the 2012 film is to thank for Les Mis' continued popularity in a huge way. It was big budget and high profile and really played up the 'classic' side of it, and it won the story so many new fans. It was massively popular on Tumblr and other fandom spaces with younger people, which in turn made more people watch it as they wanted to see what the fuss was about. There was a glut of content - fanfiction, fanart etc because it's such a complex story with so many characters and themes to play with. I knew the names of the characters long before I actually got around to watching the film about 18 months after it came out! I'm not sure if Phantom would be the same - it's a singular story with a handful of characters. Having that 'space' for fans to create new stuff from the source material is pretty much the key to having a popular piece of media nowadays and Les Mis has that in spades.
I did my masters dissertation about how information/knowledge is treated by (music) fans so I'm really interested in this kind of stuff!

[danb]

Whereas I was going to blame it on Susan Boyle...

[Jon]

I think Cameron mentioned that Les Mis was ticking along nicely but then Susan Boyle on BGT singing I Dreamed a Dream helped increased sales dramatically

[Dawnstar]

Jun 26, 2019 18:55:29 GMT sleepflower said:

I think the 2012 film is to thank for Les Mis' continued popularity in a huge way. It was big budget and high profile and really played up the 'classic' side of it, and it won the story so many new fans. It was massively popular on Tumblr and other fandom spaces with younger people, which in turn made more people watch it as they wanted to see what the fuss was about. There was a glut of content - fanfiction, fanart etc because it's such a complex story with so many characters and themes to play with. I knew the names of the characters long before I actually got around to watching the film about 18 months after it came out! I'm not sure if Phantom would be the same - it's a singular story with a handful of characters. Having that 'space' for fans to create new stuff from the source material is pretty much the key to having a popular piece of media nowadays and Les Mis has that in spades.
I did my masters dissertation about how information/knowledge is treated by (music) fans so I'm really interested in this kind of stuff!

This makes me feel very old! I've not seen the film (I rarely see films) & mostly know about it from discussions on here (& here's predecessor) that tended to centre around Russell Crowe's (lack of) singing ability. I've never been on Tumblr in my life & had no idea the film had such a following. I think Phantom does yield fan art though. I follow the West End production on Twitter & they sometimes re-tweet Phantom-related art done by fans.

[BurlyBeaR]

Jun 26, 2019 17:55:43 GMT TallPaul said:

I've now seen Les Miserables 10 times, but Phantom only once. Sitting in the audience at Her Majesty's very much felt like I was at a tourist attraction.

You weren’t wearing the mask and cloak again were you? 

[xanady]

On this one,it’s splinters time as I am sitting on the fence and saying that I can’t decide between them at all!

[danb]

I think they both appeal very much to a broad spectrum of theatregoers, hence their endurance. Lush sweeping romance-check, epic staging-check, well worn universal themes-check, coach party appeal-check, repeat business-check, ‘hit’ songs-check...I could go on, but won’t; they are both of a particular time where MT had a bit of a pop culture resurgence in ways that other mainstays like ‘Cats’, ‘Starlight’ and ‘Miss Saigon’ didn’t quite manage to capture. Sure they’re popular and can sustain regular tours but they’re just not Les Mis or Phantom, which if you said to 90% of Mums & Nans what they’d go and see if they could go and see anything, would be the answer.

[critchyboy]

It’s Phantom for me every time if I had a straight choice. Love the show. Last time I saw Les Mis I though it was poor in comparison!

[kimbahorel]

Maybe we should let them battle out in duel... like a football match... oh wait 😂😂😂 honestly that is what the thread was about to be honest until I read it!! I miss the Phantom V Mis football I went to the last one they did and it was fab day out.

[TallPaul]

Jun 26, 2019 19:33:00 GMT BurlyBeaR said:

Jun 26, 2019 17:55:43 GMT TallPaul said:

I've now seen Les Miserables 10 times, but Phantom only once. Sitting in the audience at Her Majesty's very much felt like I was at a tourist attraction.

You weren’t wearing the mask and cloak again were you? 

Thanks for lending them to me...though the cloak is a little on the large size, and the mask gave me a strange rash. 🙂

I'll get them back to you first thing Monday morning, if that's alright? I've got a few bookings this weekend. 😉

[danb]

BB? Strange Rash?

Please seek medical attention immediately! 😂