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Post by stuartmcd on Jun 27, 2021 22:08:49 GMT
It does happen with movies all the time. A lot of particularly big budget movies schedule in reshoots for this exact reason. Books go through a number of stages of rewrites during the editing process following notes from their editors. And let's face it there are plenty of movies, tv shows and books that get released as a final product with plot issues. Sure, there are plenty of things released with plot issues. But why does theatre get away with charging you £100 to see a preview then get the “it’s only a preview, how could we possibly have know after years of development, workshops and rehearsals that the plot has issues?!” excuse? Well how can a movie studio spend $200 million dollars plus on a movie with plenty of pre-production time only find out it has problems when they start editing it together and showing it to the executives? It's the same thing. To the creative team they were probably very confident that it all made entire sense. And I get the feeling if you were to ask Emerald Fennel what happens at Midnight she would be able to give you an answer. It's just not clear enough to an audience who are unfamiliar with the piece. One of the comments I made about the show was that I thought the ball scene itself was quite messy and I think that whole sequence just needs to be a lot clearer so we fully understand what is going on. |
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Post by steve10086 on Jun 27, 2021 22:17:26 GMT
And I get the feeling if you were to ask Emerald Fennel what happens at Midnight she would be able to give you an answer. It's just not clear enough to an audience who are unfamiliar with the piece. Is she writing this for herself or for an audience?! |
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Post by newyorkcityboy on Jun 27, 2021 22:20:23 GMT
It often feels that there's a bunch of people eagerly waiting to out snark one another at the tiniest inkling of anything with regard to a new production, especially since "Love Never Dies" got that unfortunate moniker "Paint Never Dries" during previews from people online. Criticisms, critiques, whatever are part of the arts - but some are unfair and in some cases unjustified (especially when people simply pile on having never seen the show) For me, being in the US - I'm looking forward to the release of the album on July 9th. I preordered that the first day it was available (months and months ago) simply because I'm an ALW fan. And I try to be pretty objective. I had preordered the original LND - had purchased a new Bose sound system so I could hear it in it's full glory and while I liked a lot of the music, it nowhere near grabbed me like the first time I listened to the WPR of Sunset where I couldn't walk away from the score and almost immediately listened to the entire thing again. School of Rock CD - thought it was okay and never went to see it because had little interest in the story and the music didn't wow me. Very curious to see how I'll react to Cinderella I'm a little bit surprised that the preview period is only about 3 weeks. With School of Rock, ALW did those public "workshops" which from the sounds of things really helped them iron out things and shuffle them around. I can't remember if Cinderella did or not, but with all these false starts and stops from COVID, I would've expected they wanted to give themselves some more time. Then again, I can imagine the creatives have been over-working during lockdown and can't wait for the premiere. For me, it's always exciting to have a new ALW production - especially after the last 15 months It is exciting, whatever the results turn out to be. I think my ALW obsession reached its peak with Sunset. My friends and I were the first people ever in the world to buy tickets - we camped out overnight outside the Adelphi Theatre to be first in line. God knows why - we were students! We had a photo taken with ALW and a received a complimentary bottle of champagne. Of the post-Sunset shows only Love Never Dies and the revamped Woman In White have totally grabbed me; I didn't even see School of Rock or Stephen Ward. But have felt the old 'buzz' returning with Cinderella...will be getting the album on release day and am looking forward to seeing the show as soon as Covid allows. The reports of the book are worrying, I'll admit, but hey - the book for Starlight Express was hardly Shakespeare and while that show wasn't art, it was tons of fun! |
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Post by stuartmcd on Jun 27, 2021 22:27:20 GMT
And I get the feeling if you were to ask Emerald Fennel what happens at Midnight she would be able to give you an answer. It's just not clear enough to an audience who are unfamiliar with the piece. Is she writing this for herself or for an audience?! Well of course for an audience. And on the whole she's turned out a pretty entertaining piece. I'm not saying it's ok that she understands it and we don't. I'm saying that she may have thought those plot points were clear and would play out well to an audience but in actual fact they don't and they need to work on it. I don't think it would take much to fix this at all. |
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Post by properjob on Jun 27, 2021 22:58:10 GMT
I don't think there are plot holes so much that at times the plot and character journeys aren't quite clear enough. I imagine that is a hard thing to judge when you are deeply involved with it because you already know what is happening and what is going to happen. Only putting it in front of an audience tells you if the audience gets it. The Godmother/necklace/midnight is the definition of a gaping plot hole. The whole Cinderella traditional story revolves around her being home by midnight, as gown becomes rags etc, you dont leave your Act 1 cliffhangar unanswered. If the creative team dont see that before it gets an audience, then they're either ignoring it or just stupid.. See, I got the midnight thing and wasn't confused by it at all and so I don't think it is a plot hole. It seems other people including yourself didn't get it which means it needs work. If I can figure out spoiler tags on my phone I'll go into more detail. I was very unsure where they are going with the necklace so that also needs some clarity or even cutting. {Spoiler - click to view}
The "fairy godmother" isn't a fairy or magic she does her work by plastic surgery, makeovers etc so Cinderella's transformation isn't magic and also isn't removed by magic. The midnight deadline is that Sebastion is being forced to chose a bride by midnight to marry the next day. So when at midnight the sister leaps on him and so is picked as the bride by his mother, Cinderella has failed and will never have a chance with him ever again. She rips her own dress and wig off and kicks off her painful shoes in frustration. It isn't a direct retelling of the fairytale. |
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Post by jrj624 on Jun 27, 2021 23:21:11 GMT
CHF just uploaded a vlog on her Youtube channel about opening night. You can hear ALW's opening remarks along with the directors and get a small taste of the beginning of the overture.
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 28, 2021 0:29:28 GMT
OK hands up, who gave it the 1 star rating? Well, it’s not a (sea) witch hunt but I would hope that the person doing that would post in the thread with their reasons. However as they haven’t and we can’t force them it’s up to the rest of us to decide how seriously we take that rating without a justification. It is important to ascertain whether the poster who gave the 1 star, actually saw the show, or is it that someone hasn’t seen the show but actually doesn’t like Andrew Lloyd Webber. The actual reverse is possible. I only posted this as a previous post on this thread gave me this concern. Don’t know why you cannot see who has given the stars. |
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Post by magnificentdonkey on Jun 28, 2021 4:26:19 GMT
Seems to be the first production photo online. Looks beautiful! {Spoiler - click to view}  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 6:00:59 GMT
It does happen with movies all the time. A lot of particularly big budget movies schedule in reshoots for this exact reason. Books go through a number of stages of rewrites during the editing process following notes from their editors. And let's face it there are plenty of movies, tv shows and books that get released as a final product with plot issues. Sure, there are plenty of things released with plot issues. But why does theatre get away with charging you £100 to see a preview then get the “it’s only a preview, how could we possibly have know after years of development, workshops and rehearsals that the plot has issues?!” excuse? It bloody shouldn't, and it never used to. Previews used to be around half price precisely because you were the test audience that allowed the creative team to find out what worked and what didn't. Part of the price you paid was in money and part was in knowing you were getting less than the full experience.
Personally I feel that if previews are charged at full price then the audience has every right to treat the show as a finished product and judge it accordingly.
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Post by marob on Jun 28, 2021 6:24:14 GMT
magnificentdonkey So that explains why it looked like someone was dressed as a gladiator in that company shot. Well… Sort of. Looking forward to seeing this myself.
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Post by thelord7 on Jun 28, 2021 6:27:57 GMT
CHF just uploaded a vlog on her Youtube channel about opening night. You can hear ALW's opening remarks along with the directors and get a small taste of the beginning of the overture.
I got goosebumps with the Cinderella's theme exploding in the opening. The key change and the chord swapped was really good! I'm looking forward to the cd! |
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Post by thelord7 on Jun 28, 2021 6:30:14 GMT
Does anyone have a list of all songs from the show?!
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Post by musicalmarge on Jun 28, 2021 7:13:41 GMT
Considering the workshops they have previously done for Cinderella at the St.James, along with the delays they have had with this production, i was/am surprised it isnt more cohesive. How can they not see the plot holes in it? It’s all to do with ego and creative differences. I used to work in theatre and now work in TV. Something clearly muddled to me is ideal to someone else. I’ve been in edit bays shaking my hands in my head wanting changes from people above that literally made no sense. Often it’s also a case of too many cooks spoil the broth. You need the composer, director, producer, MD, choreographer, book and script writer, set and costume designer AND casting to all work magic to make a hit musical. If one of the cogs in the wheel are off, or two aren’t right then it can ruin the creative process. As proved with the recent Starlight Express sadly ALW changes his productions to the point they are totally ruined. I presume the reality is that ALW is the one in charge not the director or writer and as proven with LND’s that’s why there are plot holes and part of his shows that make no sense! I’m seeing Cinderella on Wednesday - I’m excited and scared at the same time. Ha |
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Post by thelord7 on Jun 28, 2021 7:34:03 GMT
Considering the workshops they have previously done for Cinderella at the St.James, along with the delays they have had with this production, i was/am surprised it isnt more cohesive. How can they not see the plot holes in it? It’s all to do with ego and creative differences. I used to work in theatre and now work in TV. Something clearly muddled to me is ideal to someone else. I’ve been in edit bays shaking my hands in my head wanting changes from people above that literally made no sense. Often it’s also a case of too many cooks spoil the broth. You need the composer, director, producer, MD, choreographer, book and script writer, set and costume designer AND casting to all work magic to make a hit musical. If one of the cogs in the wheel are off, or two aren’t right then it can ruin the creative process. As proved with the recent Starlight Express sadly ALW changes his productions to the point they are totally ruined. I presume the reality is that ALW is the one in charge not the director or writer and as proven with LND’s that’s why there are plot holes and part of his shows that make no sense! I’m seeing Cinderella on Wednesday - I’m excited and scared at the same time. Ha Oh my Gosh!!! What happened to Starlight Express?! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 8:58:55 GMT
Does anyone have a list of all songs from the show?! They were posted on the 25/26th june. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 9:02:23 GMT
The Godmother/necklace/midnight is the definition of a gaping plot hole. The whole Cinderella traditional story revolves around her being home by midnight, as gown becomes rags etc, you dont leave your Act 1 cliffhangar unanswered. If the creative team dont see that before it gets an audience, then they're either ignoring it or just stupid.. See, I got the midnight thing and wasn't confused by it at all and so I don't think it is a plot hole. It seems other people including yourself didn't get it which means it needs work. If I can figure out spoiler tags on my phone I'll go into more detail. I was very unsure where they are going with the necklace so that also needs some clarity or even cutting. {Spoiler - click to view}
The "fairy godmother" isn't a fairy or magic she does her work by plastic surgery, makeovers etc so Cinderella's transformation isn't magic and also isn't removed by magic. The midnight deadline is that Sebastion is being forced to chose a bride by midnight to marry the next day. So when at midnight the sister leaps on him and so is picked as the bride by his mother, Cinderella has failed and will never have a chance with him ever again. She rips her own dress and wig off and kicks off her painful shoes in frustration. It isn't a direct retelling of the fairytale. But that doesnt explain the urgency of why she needed to be home by midnight. |
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Post by Mark on Jun 28, 2021 9:03:37 GMT
Does anyone have a list of all songs from the show?! They were posted on the 25/26th june. Is there a version in order rather than alphabetical? |
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Post by musicalmarge on Jun 28, 2021 9:32:54 GMT
It’s all to do with ego and creative differences. I used to work in theatre and now work in TV. Something clearly muddled to me is ideal to someone else. I’ve been in edit bays shaking my hands in my head wanting changes from people above that literally made no sense. Often it’s also a case of too many cooks spoil the broth. You need the composer, director, producer, MD, choreographer, book and script writer, set and costume designer AND casting to all work magic to make a hit musical. If one of the cogs in the wheel are off, or two aren’t right then it can ruin the creative process. As proved with the recent Starlight Express sadly ALW changes his productions to the point they are totally ruined. I presume the reality is that ALW is the one in charge not the director or writer and as proven with LND’s that’s why there are plot holes and part of his shows that make no sense! I’m seeing Cinderella on Wednesday - I’m excited and scared at the same time. Ha Oh my Gosh!!! What happened to Starlight Express?! He cut/changed the carriages Ashley and Buffy and “Lotta Locomotion”, gave Papa a sex change to Mama, removed Only You/Next Time You Fall in Love to the awful song written by his son “I Do”, cut all the melodic mid song sections/recitative, cut There’s Me, most of the character Caboose (in some productions totally), cut Engine of Love/Liebesexpress (in the German/Bochum production, cut all of the goosebump moments from version 1.7 and The Other Palace/complete new production of Starlight Depressed 4.3 totally woke, ruined, flat and destroyed. Moral of story - if something like Wicked or Phantom is sensational and gets give star reviews LEAVE IT ALONE. |
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Post by boq1984 on Jun 28, 2021 9:34:51 GMT
Anyone still waiting to hear from See Tickets? Am booked for Thursday but as yet have not heard anything. Just tried to call them but their lines are not working.
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Post by ceebee on Jun 28, 2021 9:48:34 GMT
Oh my Gosh!!! What happened to Starlight Express?! He cut/changed the carriages Ashley and Buffy and “Lotta Locomotion”, gave Papa a sex change to Mama, removed Only You/Next Time You Fall in Love to the awful song written by his son “I Do”, cut all the melodic mid song sections/recitative, cut There’s Me, most of the character Caboose (in some productions totally), cut Engine of Love/Liebesexpress (in the German/Bochum production, cut all of the goosebump moments from version 1.7 and The Other Palace/complete new production of Starlight Depressed 4.3 totally woke, ruined, flat and destroyed. Moral of story - if something like Wicked or Phantom is sensational and gets give star reviews LEAVE IT ALONE. "Only You" remains in Starlight... |
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Post by musicalmarge on Jun 28, 2021 10:00:35 GMT
He cut/changed the carriages Ashley and Buffy and “Lotta Locomotion”, gave Papa a sex change to Mama, removed Only You/Next Time You Fall in Love to the awful song written by his son “I Do”, cut all the melodic mid song sections/recitative, cut There’s Me, most of the character Caboose (in some productions totally), cut Engine of Love/Liebesexpress (in the German/Bochum production, cut all of the goosebump moments from version 1.7 and The Other Palace/complete new production of Starlight Depressed 4.3 totally woke, ruined, flat and destroyed. Moral of story - if something like Wicked or Phantom is sensational and gets give star reviews LEAVE IT ALONE. "Only You" remains in Starlight... The post race 4 amazing full goosebump tastic “Only You/Du Alein” is no longer in the Bochum show. Anyway there are different productions of Starlight/Love Never Dies etc. I know this is a Cinderella thread. My point being that changes can be made and he can close a production after a year or so like he did with the original Sunset Boulevard to make changes - but constant changes can ruin a production. That said due to time, technical aspects and only limited hours in the day for the cast and creatives - this current Cinderella in previews can’t be changed THAT much - they can’t rewrite the whole show, add characters or give it a brand new set! They can cut or add songs or new scenes/change the order but that’s about it. Has anyone ever seen a terrible one star show in previews become a masterpiece? Sadly not. |
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Post by stuartmcd on Jun 28, 2021 10:34:34 GMT
"Only You" remains in Starlight... The post race 4 amazing full goosebump tastic “Only You/Du Alein” is no longer in the Bochum show. Anyway there are different productions of Starlight/Love Never Dies etc. I know this is a Cinderella thread. My point being that changes can be made and he can close a production after a year or so like he did with the original Sunset Boulevard to make changes - but constant changes can ruin a production. That said due to time, technical aspects and only limited hours in the day for the cast and creatives - this current Cinderella in previews can’t be changed THAT much - they can’t rewrite the whole show, add characters or give it a brand new set! They can cut or add songs or new scenes/change the order but that’s about it. Has anyone ever seen a terrible one star show in previews become a masterpiece? Sadly not. But in most people’s opinion thankfully this isn’t a terrible one star show. It doesn’t need a new set or for the whole thing to be rewritten. |
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Post by FairyGodmother on Jun 28, 2021 10:42:21 GMT
Act 1
Buns 'n' Roses
It Has To Be Her
Bad Cinderella
So Long
Unfair
Unbreakable
Hunk's Song
Man's Man
So Long (Reprise)/Introduction to Only You, Lonely You
Only You, Lonely You
I Know You
The Village Square
Unfair (Reprise)
Beauty Has A Price
Act 2
Entr'acte
The Cinderella Waltz
The Ball
I Know I Have A Heart
Act Two Scene Two
I Am No Longer Me
Moment Of Triumph
Far Too Late
Ego Has A Price
The Wedding March
Man's Man (Reprise)
Marry For Love
Cinderella's Soliloquy
The Wedding Party
Finale Here you are Mark — I knew I'd seen it somewhere! |
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Post by Mark on Jun 28, 2021 10:44:40 GMT
Act 1
Buns 'n' Roses
It Has To Be Her
Bad Cinderella
So Long
Unfair
Unbreakable
Hunk's Song
Man's Man
So Long (Reprise)/Introduction to Only You, Lonely You
Only You, Lonely You
I Know You
The Village Square
Unfair (Reprise)
Beauty Has A Price
Act 2
Entr'acte
The Cinderella Waltz
The Ball
I Know I Have A Heart
Act Two Scene Two
I Am No Longer Me
Moment Of Triumph
Far Too Late
Ego Has A Price
The Wedding March
Man's Man (Reprise)
Marry For Love
Cinderella's Soliloquy
The Wedding Party
Finale Here you are Mark. Oh thank you! I completely missed that. BTW, tickets for rest of this week now on sale, with lots of availability. I don't actually think the Sunday was on sale previously. andrewlloydwebberscinderella.com/tickets/ |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 10:44:49 GMT
They were posted on the 25/26th june. Is there a version in order rather than alphabetical? on page 111 they are in order, not alphabetical. |
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