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Post by musicalmarge on May 9, 2021 13:40:05 GMT
(Posts removed for reasons) Interesting to see that the mods won’t let us rationally discuss the problems with casting in 2021 in an adult way!!!! I look forward to more Asian, Indian, Pilipino actors being cast in lead roles! Moving on I’m excited to see the show. |
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Post by danb on May 9, 2021 13:54:06 GMT
It isn’t untrue to say that, this season, a disproportionate amount of shows have a black male lead. It is disproportionate in relation to the last say, twenty five years of MT. However in previous seasons there have been disproportionately few, and even less POC in general, and then normally in ‘shows about specifics’ eg Miss Saigon, The Color Purple & Five Guys Named Mo to name a few.
Hopefully this signals a step change in casting that will be more representative of the people we know in our own lives.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2021 14:46:31 GMT
(Posts removed for reasons) Interesting to see that the mods won’t let us rationally discuss the problems with casting in 2021 in an adult way!!!! We do let people discuss things rationally in an adult way. There was nothing adult about the discussion we removed, and the moderators do not appreciate it when we have to give up our free time to deal with people who think name-calling is a rational form of debate. |
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Post by Dawnstar on May 9, 2021 16:27:37 GMT
Hopefully this signals a step change in casting that will be more representative of the people we know in our own lives. That will differ for everyone though. For those living outside large cities, the majority of the population is still white. Personally most people I know are white, including a quite a lot of Eastern Europeans at work, plus a few of Indian origin. The recent trend in musicals, where ethnic minority representation seems to only equal more black cast members, isn't at all representative of the people I know in my life. |
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Post by marob on May 9, 2021 19:46:39 GMT
Hopefully this signals a step change in casting that will be more representative of the people we know in our own lives. That will differ for everyone though. For those living outside large cities, the majority of the population is still white. Personally most people I know are white, including a quite a lot of Eastern Europeans at work, plus a few of Indian origin. The recent trend in musicals, where ethnic minority representation seems to only equal more black cast members, isn't at all representative of the people I know in my life. It’s a slightly different mix here in Wales, but that pretty much describes my experience too. |
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Post by musicalmarge on May 10, 2021 9:20:25 GMT
Hopefully this signals a step change in casting that will be more representative of the people we know in our own lives. That will differ for everyone though. For those living outside large cities, the majority of the population is still white. Personally most people I know are white, including a quite a lot of Eastern Europeans at work, plus a few of Indian origin. The recent trend in musicals, where ethnic minority representation seems to only equal more black cast members, isn't at all representative of the people I know in my life. THANK YOU!!!!! (and it’s not just a few main cities.... it’s MOST cities AND towns across the UK where it’s 92/95/98 per cent white population) That is all my issue is, and it angers me more that you are called racist for saying this. Casting is casting and nothing else. Moving on...... |
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Post by musicalmarge on May 10, 2021 9:28:18 GMT
Why have we heard so little about the song Far Too Late - it’s the best song in my opinion!
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Post by FairyGodmother on May 10, 2021 11:14:01 GMT
Why have we heard so little about the song Far Too Late - it’s the best song in my opinion! I think they might have cut it from the show. They took down the video from the official YouTube channel, and they seem to have scrubbed any sign of it from their social media. It's still pinned at the top of Carrie's twitter feed, and you can buy the sheet music for it. And when they put out a track list (when IKIHAH came out) with some song names blacked out, they hadn't blacked them all out very well, and you could see Far Too Late on there. I wondered whether it might actually be a duet? So they haven't released the "proper" soundtrack version. |
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Post by max on May 10, 2021 11:41:14 GMT
Danb made a point up thread that chimed with me, about casting increasingly reflecting the UK we see around us. However it's been pointed out that many people don't see that - living in almost all white areas, so perhaps that's not a world view or industry yardstick people can unite around. Happily we have the 2011 census (and will soon get the 2021 stats). In 2011 86% of the UK was white. None of the 14% have been princes in 'Wicked' during its London run (on major cast announcements at least), and the prince in Frozen hasn't been cast that way either. I'm very happy that all those Princes were picked on the best person for the job (casting team's subjective choice) . I'm also happy that the casting of CINDERELLA went as it did - best people for the job (casting team's subjective choice), with the happy by-product of making a small dent in those missing 14% of Princes. Not bad, Cinderella.
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Post by FairyGodmother on May 10, 2021 12:00:32 GMT
The actual love interest has though, hasn't he? In Frozen I mean. It is interesting how it varies across cities — if you cast from a representative proportion at my senior school there would be no black actors, but several Asian (both south and east) and quite a few would be Jewish. But an ex of mine from London was one of only about three white boys in his sixth form class, everybody else was black or mixed race (spotting him on his school photograph was very easy  ). Where I went to university (Edinburgh) would be different again. |
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Post by max on May 10, 2021 12:18:26 GMT
Hi FairyGodmother - I'm sure you're right about the love interest (as any FairyGodmother should be!), I was just looking after the princes, lol. But seriously, there are many ways of slicing the pie when looking at who plays what, and who is represented: role type, whole production team or actors only, whether Musicals pick up the slack for representation in plays, whether the entertainment world picks up the slack for low profile in other parts of society (and if that lets those other areas off the hook).
I noticed your comment about the videos of ALW with cast. It does feel a bit haphazard, and homemade at CINDERELLA. The personal / vloggy feel can work, but online content still has to be good! There was some lovely stuff a few days ago for 'Beauty & the Beast - tour'; stylish, warm, professional. Do you think this is just early days fun stuff for CINDERELLA, and it'll get more slick later? First impressions count though, that's my worry.
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Post by max on May 10, 2021 13:24:34 GMT
Lloyd Webber has done so well on social media and been creative with it during the pandemic, but that casual touch doesn't seem to transfer here. |
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Post by inthenose on May 10, 2021 14:00:13 GMT
Equality within theatre has to come from everyone earning their roles by merit. There is no suggestion that any of the actors hired this year are anything other than good professionals, who have received their roles by virtue of their talent. Even if a casting call went out looking specifically for a non-traditional casting of an existing role (as happened with Christine in Phantom), there is still a tough field of talented performers competing for a coveted role.
At Phantom, whilst it is historically inaccurate that a young person of colour would've been allowed to perform in an opera in France at the time of the show (Christiane Eda-Pierre, France's first black opera singer, wasn't even born until 1932), the show is about a supernatural deformed serial killer, who can make magical candles appear at will, so frankly historical realism isn't a concern. Similarly, Cinderella, Wicked et al are fairy tales, it really doesn't matter or affect the narrative. In Matilda, Mrs Trunchbull is played by a man to portray the masculinity and physical aura of the character. We suspend disbelief, because there isn't much at stake.
Most will agree, there should be no such thing as a "white musical". Oklahoma, Anything Goes and the like are nowadays being cast more equally - this is a good thing. There should be no such thing as a "black musical", a "Hispanic musical" or "Asian musical" either. This is because equality means equality for ALL.
"In the Heights" at the King's Cross Theatre featured a white man as Usnavi who was superb (Sam Mackay, brilliant guy too), a role originated by a Hispanic. This was a good thing because he was excellent in the role. Benny is a black guy. Swap the two roles and the story is compromised and makes no sense.
"Colourblind" casting only works if it does not structurally harming the narrative. If you're doing Chitty, you CAN have two black parents in a piece with a white child, without that becoming a focus of the narrative. Because it's about a magical flying car. You can't do the same thing in say Next to Normal, because it is to all intents and purposes meant to be taken seriously.
It creates subtext. Subtext the author certainly didn't intend. Is the child supposed to be adopted? How does that affect her relationships and behaviours? Did it come from Father or Mother having an affair - is that addressed in the show or appropriate for the character? Whilst the theatre has a duty to be inclusive, it also has a duty to serve the arts - not only social politics.
We have a long way to go. Throwing diverse casts together willy-nilly "because it's 2021" is very short sighted, without the proper structure for ensuring it means what it should mean - blanket equality for all - not what it is danger of meaning, "we have to look like we are casting equally by hiring more people of colour to play roles traditionally played by white people".
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Post by danb on May 10, 2021 14:27:45 GMT
“You can't do the same thing in say Next to Normal, because it is to all intents and purposes meant to be taken seriously.
It creates subtext”
I respectfully cannot agree. The audience are being asked to suspend disbelief. It is a work of fiction whether it is about a flying car or a dysfunctional family. If that jars for people they are perhaps not in the right place to have a story told to them. These actors are demonstrating events not living them. If there is a sociopolitical context to the story they are telling, or it is set within a place where them being of their colour is a plot point it could be considered poor taste to cast outside of that caste. If it is a creative decision eg:to have black men playing the white men that shaped the formation of the USA; making a juxtaposition then fair enough. But I don’t agree that it being a serious subject should negate colourblind casting.
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Post by Mark on May 10, 2021 14:50:46 GMT
“You can't do the same thing in say Next to Normal, because it is to all intents and purposes meant to be taken seriously. It creates subtext” I respectfully cannot agree. The audience are being asked to suspend disbelief. It is a work of fiction whether it is about a flying car or a dysfunctional family. If that jars for people they are perhaps not in the right place to have a story told to them. These actors are demonstrating events not living them. If there is a sociopolitical context to the story they are telling, or it is set within a place where them being of their colour is a plot point it could be considered poor taste to cast outside of that caste. If it is a creative decision eg:to have black men playing the white men that shaped the formation of the USA; making a juxtaposition then fair enough. But I don’t agree that it being a serious subject should negate colourblind casting. It's an interesting one, because watching Jagged Little Pill on Broadway, I did wonder if the character of Frankie was adopted, or whether it was color-blind casting before it was clarified that yes, she was adopted, and I'm sure the same question would be asked about next to normal should they have colour-blind casting - and that's more down to the nature of the show and the issues which are dealt with in that it could be a question if people aren't familiar with the piece. Interestingly in Everybody's Talkin about Jamie they recast the dad as a black actor when Layton took over the role. Back to Cinderella, it's great to see diverse casting, and that this extends to the ensemble and presumably all the covers. |
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Post by max on May 10, 2021 15:58:17 GMT
Agreed Mark - I've got warm feelings about heading back to the Gillian Lynne Theatre in that regard. I left it late to see 'School Of Rock' there (penultimate theatre visit before lockdown as it turned out) but the vibrant diversity of the young cast was one of the highlights for me. They won't all stick in the theatre industry, but they made their mark and will have inspired a few young audience members too. Not wild about seeing any telling of CINDERELLA tbh, but I'm hoping Emerald Fennell's input was more than a scenario she came up with and ALW got mega excited about before it was cooked (as he tends to do). She's an asset to the whole project, but her reputation since she was first involved is now sky high - people will be expecting a lot, and quite fairly.
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Post by danb on May 10, 2021 16:24:12 GMT
After ‘Promising Young Woman’ I’m expecting an awful lot. She doesn’t strike me as someone that would allow anyone to weaken her vision.
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Post by max on May 10, 2021 17:33:36 GMT
Funny things happen with status Danb, and people can go a bit fuzzy around musicals, it's such a different world you can lose your usual centre of creative gravity. Imagine if the pandemic had started now not a year ago (save us!); ALW finding himself with an Oscar winning book writer on the team, with an acclaimed film under her belt about one woman's experience today. That's a lot of unexpected writing/refining time to make it amazing. I just hope her status did already get honoured in the collaboration from the start. We'll see!
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Post by danb on May 10, 2021 17:48:49 GMT
Series 3 of ‘Killing Eve’ was to the same standard as the first two, and refreshingly introduced new characters and situations to keep it fresh. She could be a one trick pony, but it’s a good trick and she knows how to use it well.
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Post by j0shwaterfield on May 11, 2021 8:41:19 GMT
does anyone have any clue about seats for this? i saw school of rock a couple of times in side seats and they were great value but i’m looking at refurb pictures and pictures of the set and it looks like you could miss quite a lot from the side seats so i’m really debating what to book 😩
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Post by nick on May 11, 2021 13:30:44 GMT
does anyone have any clue about seats for this? i saw school of rock a couple of times in side seats and they were great value but i’m looking at refurb pictures and pictures of the set and it looks like you could miss quite a lot from the side seats so i’m really debating what to book 😩 I hope not. I went for cheap seats (£25 each or something like that - it's a long time since I booked and I used vouchers) and was hoping they'd be OK. Mind you if it's any good I can always go again in decent seats. |
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Post by danb on May 11, 2021 13:39:39 GMT
I’ve been moved over a couple of seats more central with the rebooking shenanigans so am hoping its ok.
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Post by j0shwaterfield on May 11, 2021 14:23:47 GMT
does anyone have any clue about seats for this? i saw school of rock a couple of times in side seats and they were great value but i’m looking at refurb pictures and pictures of the set and it looks like you could miss quite a lot from the side seats so i’m really debating what to book 😩 I hope not. I went for cheap seats (£25 each or something like that - it's a long time since I booked and I used vouchers) and was hoping they'd be OK. Mind you if it's any good I can always go again in decent seats. yea i’m really debating what to book for myself, as in some pictures it looks quite restricted but then some pictures the stage is further out into the audience and it looks like a great view so 😣 |
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Post by TallPaul on May 11, 2021 14:28:24 GMT
If the stage and front stalls do swap places, that should make the view from the rear stalls better, shouldn't it?
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Post by fluxcapacitor on May 12, 2021 10:29:50 GMT
Series 3 of ‘Killing Eve’ was to the same standard as the first two, and refreshingly introduced new characters and situations to keep it fresh. She could be a one trick pony, but it’s a good trick and she knows how to use it well. Totally disagree about 'Killing Eve'. Having loved Series 1 and quite enjoyed Series 2, I found Series 3 completely tedious - it became a chore to watch, and whilst it didn't become style over substance it felt like the focus had moved to visual set pieces and gimmicky twists at the expense of storytelling. I thought the through line of the series became confused and meandering and I gave up caring about any of the characters. There were some good moments, and she's definitely brilliant at writing clever dialogue both witty and emotion-driven, but I found the overall storytelling loose and messy. I do highly rate her work usually, though, and loved Promising Young Woman. So there's potential there for it to be brilliant. A musical can be a difficult beast to master even for the most experienced writers though - just look at Jennifer Saunders' attempt in Viva Forever. |
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). Where I went to university (Edinburgh) would be different again. 
