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Post by shady23 on Dec 5, 2019 15:44:14 GMT
From comments I have seen on social media it seems one of the biggest winners of this run is Bradley Jaden, who seems to have gained a whole new army of fans/admirers!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 20:07:45 GMT
I was referring to the details that I'm pretty sure came about from Earl's personal acting choices, as I'd never seen Michael do any of those before yesterday. Michael created the role of Marius, sure, and he may very well have had input in how a Javert should act overall, or even how Roger Allam interpreted the role. My issue was not with Michael doing standard Javert acting or Alfie finally doing standard Valjean acting (that's literally their one job), but with them adding certain physical movements or vocal emphases here and there that I only ever recognised coming from the other pair. I don't appreciate you dismissing what I personally observed and understood over the course of multiple shows these few months. Also, I'm not criticising Alfie/Michael for the sake of putting them down- I simply wanted to describe their contrasts in more concrete terms rather than involve myself in the usual "he had a great voice and who are you to say he didn't act" argument. Will you more happily accept it if I used the term "inspired" instead of "lifted"? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all and I am glad at least some of the leads have learnt from their understudies and vice versa. I would gladly accept any criticism of John/Earl if you would provide any, instead of empty attacks on what is my personal opinion, or putting down my preferred actors for being simply "understudies" (and therefore no matter how good they are, they aren't the leads, end of discussion). Just because the run has finished doesn't mean we have to stop comparing and analysing. Maybe that's our difference. I enjoy Les Mis as an art form to be praised at times and picked apart at other times, not a one-time spectacle for tweeting about seeing certain stars. Maybe this forum isn't the right place and audience for it but I do think this kind of discussion and constant re-examination is what will keep the show relevant and its acting fresh. This concert production has been a perfect venture for Cammack, I don't doubt it. It's tapped into today's celebrity worship culture and balanced it with an crowdpleaser MT production- who wouldn't flock to see it? But this approach won't last forever. The next time Boe/Ball/Lucas are absent together, there will probably be an actual revolt outside DMT's offices- now wouldn't that be poetic justice. Alas, the genuine discussion and thought-provoking counterarguments I was hoping for did not appear, and my comments found "tiresome". I found the snidey comments and constant digs at Alfie Boe tiresome, yes. I don't think you ever missed an opportunity.
I feel I've already said everything I want to say, and I am also already aware of your thoughts. And while I appreciate your invite to criticise JOJ and Earl, why would I do that? I have seen both as Valjean and Javert many times over the years in the full production, together and separately, and I thought they were excellent (although not my favourite in the roles). But I deliberately bought a ticket to see the concert with Alfie and Michael as I'd never seen either of them live as Valjean and Javert before. It had nothing to do with "tweeting about seeing certain stars". And as I expected, I thought they were wonderful. Again not my favourite in the roles, although I did think Alfie delivered richer vocals than JOJ. I got from the concert exactly what I'd hoped for (and didn't post a single tweet about it). It was well worth the ticket price and I'll certainly buy the DVD to watch again when it comes out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 20:17:37 GMT
You do realise Michael Ball was involved in the creation of this musical? Worked closely with Trevor Nunn, John Caird and the original creative team 34 years ago, and saw these characters being developed. I'm not sure you can accuse him of stealing his understudy's moves on his final night. As in he was in the original cast. But as he only left drama school the year or so before (according to Wiki) and had appeared in Godspell and Pirates of Penzance would he really of had that much 'involvement in the creation' particularly of a character he wasn't playing at the time? (Genuine question)
Yes, I mean as in being in the original cast. So being involved in rehearsals while the creators were still writing the musical around them. I don't mean Michael Ball was directing, or had an input into the creation of Javert, but he was there while Trevor Nunn, John Caird, Herbert Kretzmer, Boublil and Schonberg were. There are many interviews and stories about the process, and what went on in the creation of the show.
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Post by miz on Dec 5, 2019 20:24:46 GMT
From comments I have seen on social media it seems one of the biggest winners of this run is Bradley Jaden, who seems to have gained a whole new army of fans/admirers! He deserves it. I hope his new fans will follow him to the new staged version and to other musicals and plays. |
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Post by shady23 on Dec 5, 2019 20:36:54 GMT
After reading some of this thread I expected to be disappointed by Alfie on Monday. I wasn't. I thought he was outstanding.
I realise my views may not count for much as I've only seen this show 7 times and not 70 or 700 but I find this narrative that if you like Alfie's JVJ you are not a true fan of the art, you don't understand the show and you just like celebrity to be patronising in the extreme.
I'm sure we can all put forward the case for our favourites eloquently enough without fueling "isn't theatre elitist" stereotypes.
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Post by miz on Dec 5, 2019 22:06:31 GMT
shady23, I think it is absolutely fine not to be dissapointed by Alfe's JVJ. But what I, and a few others, would love to hear is a more detailed analysis or explanation of why you found his JVJ to be outstanding, other than just saying, "his voice is great". It is a genuine question to all of you out there who rate Alfie's portrayal of JVJ hightly. What do you think make Alfie's JVJ so great?
Personally, I have only seen him twice at the O2 and again twice at the Queens and will have to wait till Saturday to see his performance in the latest run. In the past, he always left me cold, but I will go with an open mind this Satruday and try to write my review here if anyone is interested.
I will not go on about JOJ's quality as a performer since 141920grm and Dave25 have already described it so very beautifully. But I will say this again that I believe being able to point out an actor's/show's/producer's shortcomings, when there are shortcomings, without being called names is very important on a forum like this one. At the end of the day, I presume we all want the theatre industry to keep thriving both commercially and artistically. I realise it could be a difficult balance to strike; commercial gain and/or artistic standards. But then again, that's why it's intersting to share all sorts of different opinions here.
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Post by longinthetooth on Dec 5, 2019 22:17:54 GMT
From comments I have seen on social media it seems one of the biggest winners of this run is Bradley Jaden, who seems to have gained a whole new army of fans/admirers! He deserves it. I hope his new fans will follow him to the new staged version and to other musicals and plays. I can confirm this. The first time I saw this (only three times, unlike some!), some ladies in front asked if anyone had a programme. They wanted to know who the gorgeous, talented guy was who was playing Enjolras. They duly took note, Googled him in the interval and noted he would be moving back to the Queens/Sondheim, and at the end of the show I heard one of them say, "right, where is the stage door? We have some serious stalking to do!" |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 22:18:40 GMT
shady23, I think it is absolutely fine not to be dissapointed by Alfe's JVJ. But what I, and a few others, would love to hear is a more detailed analysis or explanation of why you found his JVJ to be outstanding, other than just saying, "his voice is great". It is a genuine question to all of you out there who rate Alfie's portrayal of JVJ hightly. What do you think make Alfie's JVJ so great? Personally, I have only seen him twice at the O2 and again twice at the Queens and will have to wait till Saturday to see his performance in the latest run. In the past, he always left me cold, but I will go with an open mind this Satruday and try to write my review here if anyone is interested. I will not go on about JOJ's quality as a performer since 141920grm and Dave25 have already described it so very beautifully. But I will say this again that I believe being able to point out an actor's/show's/producer's shortcomings, when there are shortcomings, without being called names is very important on a forum like this one. At the end of the day, I presume we all want the theatre industry to keep thriving both commercially and artistically. I realise it could be a difficult balance to strike; commercial gain and/or artistic standards. But then again, that's why it's intersting to share all sorts of different opinions here. Of course you or anyone else can have an opinion on an actors/shows shortcomings, but why not state your opinion once, instead of repeating it over and over. and over. |
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Post by miz on Dec 5, 2019 22:27:35 GMT
I have, and don't worry I will again after this Saturday. BTW, did I mention something about calling names? In case I haven't, let me repeat. I think it's very important for a forum like this to ...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 23:58:05 GMT
Of course you or anyone else can have an opinion on an actors/shows shortcomings, but why not state your opinion once, instead of repeating it over and over. and over. I believe this is what we call “debating”. Miz asked a genuine question: can those who rate Alfie’s JVJ break down the reasons why, beyond “he has a great voice”? Maybe “he has a great voice” is enough for you. That’s totally fine. You could just say that. And I know things often get heated around here, but probably we could all do with paying close attention to which posts we ‘like’. Sometimes a bullying tone can develop on this forum and ganging up on others isn’t a great look for a place where we can generally have robust but respectful debates. |
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Post by shady23 on Dec 6, 2019 8:48:45 GMT
I don't think there is any need to have to explain why I or anyone likes a performer's performance, in addition to their voice. By asking for more details it seems to imply you think there is nothing more to them than their voice, which I think has already been debated to death on here in recent weeks.
Do I think Alfie the best JVJ the world has ever seen? No.
Did he do a very good job the occasion I saw him in the show? Yes!
The show has now ended so the musical purists among you never have to go and see your musical diluted by "stars" ever again. Well, until the next anniversary at least...
I thought this concert run was great. It introduced so so many new fans to the show and it brought so much joy and happiness to many but you wouldn't think so by reading this thread most of the time.
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Post by miz on Dec 6, 2019 9:24:20 GMT
Of course you or anyone else can have an opinion on an actors/shows shortcomings, but why not state your opinion once, instead of repeating it over and over. and over. I believe this is what we call “debating”. Miz asked a genuine question: can those who rate Alfie’s JVJ break down the reasons why, beyond “he has a great voice”? Maybe “he has a great voice” is enough for you. That’s totally fine. You could just say that. And I know things often get heated around here, but probably we could all do with paying close attention to which posts we ‘like’. Sometimes a bullying tone can develop on this forum and ganging up on others isn’t a great look for a place where we can generally have robust but respectful debates. Thank you, jeanhunt, for interceding. As you correctly pointed out, all I am asking is for the member of this forum to shed some light on what make Alfie's JVJ great. I am honestly curious because I have been scraching my head all these years unnable to see myself the greatness of his JVJ. As for shortcomings of this semi-staged version, I have stated my views in bits of bobs in this thread alreaday, but due to popular demand, I will repeat them before I go to see the screening tomorrow. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Dec 6, 2019 9:29:49 GMT
I agree it is all a bit of a redundant argument isn’t it? Explaining why you like something, or one thing over another can be very hard. Sometimes it’s just a case of “I just liked it better”. And let’s face it no one is required to justify their personal preferences to anyone here.
I saw Alfie in it live, and wasn’t that fussed. Saw him at the cinema Monday and liked him much more. No idea if he had nicked anyone’s acting choices but it seems a tad unlikely. Maybe he was just feeling better after taking some time off? When I saw JOJ which was the 25 tour so a long time ago, he just stunned me. They’re both good, but different. Looking forward to seeing Dean Chisnall’s take on it next year!
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Post by couldileaveyou on Dec 6, 2019 9:33:03 GMT
I just watched a few scenes, Rob Houchen was a bit shouty during ECAET, wasn't he? Shame, he always sang it impeccably when I saw him live.
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Post by londonmzfitz on Dec 6, 2019 9:44:48 GMT
This was all about Alfie for me. Thought his voice was stunning. I saw him and Matt Lucas at the Queens back in - was it 2011? Gosh ... And echo Phantoms thought that Alfie didn't act the role. But boy what a voice. I was initially excited by Carrie Hope Fletchers I Dreamed A Dream but halfway through it felt she was racing against the Orchestra. I thought the staging was good ,but the death of Javert in just walking off down the centre steps I'd want to tweak. Lovely to see an orchestra. There's a blooming harp!. Didn't enjoy my Grand Circle E25 though. Main cast are at mics front of stage, so a chunk of the front of stage wasn't visible. Reminder why I usually go front stalls! Leaners at the front and bobby heads meant I was lucky to see main cast faces of those centre stage. I had a whooper next to me too ... Again, all about Alfie for me. Love his voice. Quoting my post from seeing the first show for miz. I enjoy Alfie's voice. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 9:45:32 GMT
As for shortcomings of this semi-staged version, I have stated my views in bits of bobs in this thread alreaday, but due to popular demand, I will repeat them before I go to see the screening tomorrow. And you wonder why people won't engage with you... |
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Post by miz on Dec 6, 2019 11:21:14 GMT
Deleted.
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Post by miz on Dec 6, 2019 11:27:59 GMT
I agree it is all a bit of a redundant argument isn’t it? Explaining why you like something, or one thing over another can be very hard. Sometimes it’s just a case of “I just liked it better”. And let’s face it no one is required to justify their personal preferences to anyone here. I saw Alfie in it live, and wasn’t that fussed. Saw him at the cinema Monday and liked him much more. No idea if he had nicked anyone’s acting choices but it seems a tad unlikely. Maybe he was just feeling better after taking some time off? When I saw JOJ which was the 25 tour so a long time ago, he just stunned me. They’re both good, but different. Looking forward to seeing Dean Chisnall’s take on it next year! Sorry to have posted a redundant argument above. It was in response to a post saying I had never expressed my own views. You can delete it if necessary. But if you remember, this argument was rekindled when 141920grm gave a very honest answer to your qeustion "Genuine question, and honestly no snark intended at all, but why have you seen it 14 times? You don’t seem to rate any of the leads particularly highly? " , wasn't it? |
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Post by miz on Dec 6, 2019 11:30:16 GMT
This was all about Alfie for me. Thought his voice was stunning. I saw him and Matt Lucas at the Queens back in - was it 2011? Gosh ... And echo Phantoms thought that Alfie didn't act the role. But boy what a voice. I was initially excited by Carrie Hope Fletchers I Dreamed A Dream but halfway through it felt she was racing against the Orchestra. I thought the staging was good ,but the death of Javert in just walking off down the centre steps I'd want to tweak. Lovely to see an orchestra. There's a blooming harp!. Didn't enjoy my Grand Circle E25 though. Main cast are at mics front of stage, so a chunk of the front of stage wasn't visible. Reminder why I usually go front stalls! Leaners at the front and bobby heads meant I was lucky to see main cast faces of those centre stage. I had a whooper next to me too ... Again, all about Alfie for me. Love his voice. Quoting my post from seeing the first show for miz. I enjoy Alfie's voice. Thank you! Got it. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Dec 6, 2019 12:01:28 GMT
I agree it is all a bit of a redundant argument isn’t it? Explaining why you like something, or one thing over another can be very hard. Sometimes it’s just a case of “I just liked it better”. And let’s face it no one is required to justify their personal preferences to anyone here. I saw Alfie in it live, and wasn’t that fussed. Saw him at the cinema Monday and liked him much more. No idea if he had nicked anyone’s acting choices but it seems a tad unlikely. Maybe he was just feeling better after taking some time off? When I saw JOJ which was the 25 tour so a long time ago, he just stunned me. They’re both good, but different. Looking forward to seeing Dean Chisnall’s take on it next year! Sorry to have posted a redundant argument above. It was in response to a post saying I had never expressed my own views. You can delete it if necessary. But if you remember, this argument was rekindled when 141920grm gave a very honest answer to your qeustion "Genuine question, and honestly no snark intended at all, but why have you seen it 14 times? You don’t seem to rate any of the leads particularly highly? " , wasn't it? My question to 141920grm was about why they would go to see a show so many times when they weren’t keen on the leads and they answered that very clearly by saying they had preferences for certain performers/alternates and that was who they’d been going to see. I wasn’t rekindling any arguments. I asked a genuine question and got an answer. I do think that asking people to justify a preference is redundant if they just happen to prefer one over the other because that genuinely is sometimes the only reason. If you want to have a technical discussion about the merits of one performer over another then you’re definitely in the right place, but I don’t think you can expect everyone who expresses a preference to be willing and/or able to explain it to you. |
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Post by danb on Dec 6, 2019 12:14:53 GMT
There isn’t really a need for this thread now that the show is closed eh? 😚🤪
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Post by miz on Dec 6, 2019 12:38:19 GMT
Sorry to have posted a redundant argument above. It was in response to a post saying I had never expressed my own views. You can delete it if necessary. But if you remember, this argument was rekindled when 141920grm gave a very honest answer to your qeustion "Genuine question, and honestly no snark intended at all, but why have you seen it 14 times? You don’t seem to rate any of the leads particularly highly? " , wasn't it? My question to 141920grm was about why they would go to see a show so many times when they weren’t keen on the leads and they answered that very clearly by saying they had preferences for certain performers/alternates and that was who they’d been going to see. I wasn’t rekindling any arguments. I asked a genuine question and got an answer. I do think that asking people to justify a preference is redundant if they just happen to prefer one over the other because that genuinely is sometimes the only reason. If you want to have a technical discussion about the merits of one performer over another then you’re definitely in the right place, but I don’t think you can expect everyone who expresses a preference to be willing and/or able to explain it to you. Er.... I really don't want it to escalate into something unpleasant. How it went was 141920grm answering your question and a word "tiresome" was used, and.....so on and so force. As for my request, explaning technical merits of Alfie's performance is exactly what I am asking for. I don't think I EVER asked anyone to justify their preference because I would not. Was something lost in translation?? Anyway, I will shut up now. Sorry for ever becoming a member of this forum. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 13:59:28 GMT
Not to prolong the argument but there was no sense of ‘justify it’ in the original question - just a request to help open someone’s eyes to something they may be missing.
I asked a similar question over in the thread about what I thought was an atrocious Tennessee Williams play this summer. Others here raved about it. I was honestly baffled and asked them to tell me what they saw in it that I didn’t. I received a thoughtful reply that gave me food for thought.
No need for snark and general unpleasantness, is all I’m saying. Though also - no need to ‘feed the troll’ by winding them up further by taking sarcasm at face value... tempting though that might be!!
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Post by nefertari on Dec 6, 2019 14:26:45 GMT
I just watched a few scenes, Rob Houchen was a bit shouty during ECAET, wasn't he? Shame, he always sang it impeccably when I saw him live. I think some of the leads were exhausted after 16-week-run. They were not at their best during live broadcast. Rob was perfect when I saw him at lesmiz 34th birthday. |
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Post by miz on Dec 6, 2019 15:18:33 GMT
Not to prolong the argument but there was no sense of ‘justify it’ in the original question - just a request to help open someone’s eyes to something they may be missing. I asked a similar question over in the thread about what I thought was an atrocious Tennessee Williams play this summer. Others here raved about it. I was honestly baffled and asked them to tell me what they saw in it that I didn’t. I received a thoughtful reply that gave me food for thought. No need for snark and general unpleasantness, is all I’m saying. Though also - no need to ‘feed the troll’ by winding them up further by taking sarcasm at face value... tempting though that might be!! Thank you, jeanhunt, for clalifying my question. Your example is exactly what I had in mind so that I can take those views from Alfie fans to the cinema screening tomorrow to see Alfie in a different light and possibly improve my opinion of him. As for feeding trolls, I thank you also for pointing it out. And sorry BurlyBeaR. I didn't mean to blame you or anything. I just wanted to explain how the train of conversation developed, somehow ending up with me wirting a long post which I never intended to write in the first place. |
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