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Post by asfound on Jan 7, 2019 9:28:34 GMT
the scramble for self-righteousness empty PR sounding sloganeering why a theatre has to provide a student learning zone and free office space and conference call centre echo chamber guilty anguish handwringing OPEN TO ALL TM self-loathing insecure If I walk past the NT after work at 5.30 and I feel like seeing one of the very rarely sold out shows I'm not going to feel inclined to spend a hard earned £40 if I can't sit and relax somewhere comfortable for the 2 hours before the show starts. I suppose the NT doesn't need the money or the money of people who would spend at the bar if they could find a spot. many people are annoyed by this - go and eavesdrop on people crowding round ten to a table or wandering back and forth trying to find a seat or somewhere to have a drink Dearie me, what a parade of overheated finger-in-the-air-waving. But it did give me a couple of chuckles so thanks at least for that. I love the idea that theatregoers looking for a drink on arriving and finding no seats will, en masse, sigh and say "Oh well, better not get that drink then" and leave. And thanks for the suggestion that I sidle up and listen to the aggrieved whining of the oppressed theatregoers cruelly forced to huddle around one small table or wandering seatless, but I'll pass. Incidentally, where are the data on NT public area usage? I love the nervous false laughter when middle class guilt is held under the microscope... well I suppose we're all so convinced the NT is doing brilliantly well financially under its plan to transform wifi moochers into regularly theatregoers, may as well just dismiss that £40 is a lot of money for some people and they might not want to feel like they are in Stansted airport. Or maybe as long as it makes you feel good brushing shoulders with the common people then it doesn't matter either way. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 9:31:04 GMT
I'm beginning to think it's not theatre that has a class problem, it's certain theatre-goers. There are some really worrying statements in this thread...
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Post by wiggymess on Jan 7, 2019 10:04:07 GMT
Dearie me, what a parade of overheated finger-in-the-air-waving. But it did give me a couple of chuckles so thanks at least for that. I love the idea that theatregoers looking for a drink on arriving and finding no seats will, en masse, sigh and say "Oh well, better not get that drink then" and leave. And thanks for the suggestion that I sidle up and listen to the aggrieved whining of the oppressed theatregoers cruelly forced to huddle around one small table or wandering seatless, but I'll pass. Incidentally, where are the data on NT public area usage? I love the nervous false laughter when middle class guilt is held under the microscope... well I suppose we're all so convinced the NT is doing brilliantly well financially under its plan to transform wifi moochers into regularly theatregoers, may as well just dismiss that £40 is a lot of money for some people and they might not want to feel like they are in Stansted airport. Or maybe as long as it makes you feel good brushing shoulders with the common people then it doesn't matter either way. Why has this suddenly become yet another discussion about class? You're completely ignoring the fact that those who are comfortable with it being a public space are not convinced that it is a ploy to try and get people into the theatre. I've always personally found most theatres very intimidating places, as have many of my friends, but the public space at the NT feels very different and I think that's important. |
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Post by lynette on Jan 7, 2019 10:07:15 GMT
For the past million years I’ve been going on about how poorly the NT has used its river frontage. This must be one of the most sought after and expensive pieces of real estate in the Western world. But the architect decided to block the view of the river and provide windy concrete balconies inaccessible to the general public, not to provide catering or shops or seating. They have been playing catch up ever since. The NT should be a hive of activity all the time. I’ve mentioned before how they should keep the bars and cafes open for after shows instead of sending theatre goers put into a bleak and dark foyer. There should be publicly accessible places to sit and enjoy the view, to have workshops and meetings free and to just use the space. Entertainment should be all the time. The pathetic attempt at pre show stuff in the Lyttleton foyer came to a miserable end and the odd summer weird stuff, large chairs, is equally pathetic. There is never enough seating whether you are there all day on your lap top ( Er, not the great unwashed, I’ve only seen affluent techie equipped , well coiffed indiciduals ) or going to a show and want to perch with a coffee for twenty minutes. I would be delighted it the NT were a destination for tourists and Londoners and children all alike to learn about theatre, see shows and talk about them. As it is there is no buzz, no atmosphere, terrible food and nowhere to sit. Going to the theatre there is like taking your medicine. You hope it will be good for you. I yearn for the day the building will be demolished and we can start again. However, there will never be any money available for that, I know. Ok, that's it for 2019.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 10:11:52 GMT
Lynette! how dare you talk about knocking down my favourite concrete monstrosity!
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jan 7, 2019 10:12:38 GMT
All of this is wonderful stuff for Norris as it distracts from the terrible programming
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Post by jek on Jan 7, 2019 10:21:21 GMT
As I write this my daughter is at the Barbican Library doing A Level revision. It's a really good spot for her as one of her A Levels is music and the Barbican music library has pretty much any score that she needs to consult. She can also get there from our house door to door by public transport in half an hour. However, a couple of times over this holiday the library has been so crowded (Guildhall students, local residents, A Level students like her) that she has decamped to the Barbican cinema foyer where she can work and get a cup of tea. She says that there is barely anyone in there. Our local library is so full that she would have to be there at opening time to get a seat. Lack of space to study (needed when so many youngsters don't have a private space to study at home) seems to be a bit of an issue.
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Post by viserys on Jan 7, 2019 10:28:14 GMT
I know, very different climate and all that, but they should take a look at the Esplanade - Theatres on the Bay in Singapore, that managed a very successful mix of free public entertainment, accessibility and performing arts for paying customers. On only two days in Singapore I sort of accidentally caught a very beautiful dance performance and an ear-killingly awful Chinese orchestra performing for free. I wouldn't have wanted to hear more of that Chinese orchestra, but might have booked for a full performance of the dance company if I had been in town longer.
It may be a bit more difficult for a theatre mostly dedicated to drama, but surely the NT could come up with some ideas for free public performances, allow some budding musical performers to do small free concerts, lure parents & children with some short drama workshops for kids, whatever.
And yes, the balconies of the NT are a criminal waste. The ground floor as it is now is at least some progress, but I really don't think the NT looks very inviting to all the people walking past along the river.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 10:36:49 GMT
A related note, but when I was at RADA we used to sit in the British Library cafe to have meetings, because there's no space in their buildings and all the surrounding coffee shops were very busy. And yes, the other half of my degree at Kings, we used to scuttle over the river to the RFH or the Nash...that was 10 years ago and those spaces feel far more welcoming now than they did then.
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Post by kathryn on Jan 7, 2019 11:33:13 GMT
And yes, the balconies of the NT are a criminal waste. The ground floor as it is now is at least some progress, but I really don't think the NT looks very inviting to all the people walking past along the river. The balconies (and the skywalks around the Barbican centre) are a failure of post-war planning philosophy that tried to encourage people to ascend from street level, which was supposed to be left for cars and cargo to move efficiently around. We were all going to be walking in the sky..... Of course, this was back when the river was polluted and industrial, and the last thing anyone wanted to do was walk alongside it! There was a rather fascinating talk about this at the NT a couple of years ago by one of the architects involved. |
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Jan 7, 2019 11:41:51 GMT
I find this argument bizarre.
The majority of theatres and certainly most West End theatres do not have public spaces, only one or two tiny bars and a foyer which are open to ticket-holders only immediately before a show. Why does anyone care that communal arts buildings exist? If it offends you, just don't go to them. Plenty of alternatives if you're so snobbish you don't want to mix with the great unwashed.
Besides the NT do have a policy that certain areas are only for ticket holders or people buying food in the hour or so before a show.
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Post by viserys on Jan 7, 2019 11:42:24 GMT
Makes sense (on their side) - After reading this discussion I went to take a look at the area on Google Maps/Earth and realized for the first time that there's a nice garden space of sorts on the building next door (Queen Elizabeth Hall?) - I'm not sure if it IS open to the public, but if it is, I have never known of it before. Why not signpost it better, same with at least the biggest NT balcony, put up the lawn chairs there in the summer months, a little mobile café, and it would all be rather lovely. Similarly, until an American friend went to college in London a few years ago and used the Royal Festival Hall's free wifi sometimes, I had no idea that that place was even open for the public (or where the entrance is)... I'm sure that we all here know about the NT being open to the public because we're theatre nerds, but how many people are even aware that the're a good bookshop and cafe inside that's open to everyone? |
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Post by kathryn on Jan 7, 2019 12:04:28 GMT
Makes sense (on their side) - After reading this discussion I went to take a look at the area on Google Maps/Earth and realized for the first time that there's a nice garden space of sorts on the building next door (Queen Elizabeth Hall?) - I'm not sure if it IS open to the public, but if it is, I have never known of it before. Why not signpost it better, same with at least the biggest NT balcony, put up the lawn chairs there in the summer months, a little mobile café, and it would all be rather lovely. Similarly, until an American friend went to college in London a few years ago and used the Royal Festival Hall's free wifi sometimes, I had no idea that that place was even open for the public (or where the entrance is)... I'm sure that we all here know about the NT being open to the public because we're theatre nerds, but how many people are even aware that the're a good bookshop and cafe inside that's open to everyone? The skywalks/gardens in the air thing has failed because - no matter how well you signpost it - people just don't look up naturally. We automatically look for routes at ground level. I don't think anyone has quite figured out why, psychologically, we're so resistant to them - but it's a bit like the urge to take a 'shortcut' across a piece of grass even when it's no quicker than walking around the edge. It must be something to do with how we process space, and our mental maps. There are hundreds of examples of the damn things being built - at great expense - and turning out to be expensive white elephants, in cities all over the world. They seem so logical on paper! |
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Post by viserys on Jan 7, 2019 12:09:00 GMT
There are hundreds of examples of the damn things being built - at great expense - and turning out to be expensive white elephants, in cities all over the world. They seem so logical on paper! And human laziness? I mean, when I look at a staircase that MIGHT lead me to a nice café or something, my mental reaction is "oof, no", but when I see an escalator, I can be more easily lured to see where it goes (this way I discovered the Wagamama somewhat tucked away in the new mall/accumulation-of-ugly at Victoria Station whe I looked for somewhere to eat before a show at the Other Palace. |
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Post by shady23 on Jan 7, 2019 12:13:24 GMT
I was in the National briefly on Saturday and there was an announcement asking for people to vacate certain areas to leave room for those who were coming to the shows.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jan 7, 2019 12:38:48 GMT
And then did they chivvy people out by flapping a duster at them and spraying air freshener?
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Post by kathryn on Jan 7, 2019 12:44:45 GMT
There are hundreds of examples of the damn things being built - at great expense - and turning out to be expensive white elephants, in cities all over the world. They seem so logical on paper! And human laziness? I mean, when I look at a staircase that MIGHT lead me to a nice café or something, my mental reaction is "oof, no", but when I see an escalator, I can be more easily lured to see where it goes (this way I discovered the Wagamama somewhat tucked away in the new mall/accumulation-of-ugly at Victoria Station whe I looked for somewhere to eat before a show at the Other Palace. We're all Daleks at heart - can't cope with stairs! |
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Post by sf on Jan 7, 2019 13:07:04 GMT
A related note, but when I was at RADA we used to sit in the British Library cafe to have meetings, because there's no space in their buildings and all the surrounding coffee shops were very busy. And yes, the other half of my degree at Kings, we used to scuttle over the river to the RFH or the Nash...that was 10 years ago and those spaces feel far more welcoming now than they did then.
I did that degree myself (part-time, 1995-7). At that time, finding a place quiet enough to have a work-related conversation/meeting in the streets immediately around RADA was mostly a matter of luck, and the area around my workplace wasn't much better (I worked in Covent Garden). Yes, we also used the cafe in the British Museum; from Kings, our venue of choice was the National Film Theatre bar.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 13:21:30 GMT
A related note, but when I was at RADA we used to sit in the British Library cafe to have meetings, because there's no space in their buildings and all the surrounding coffee shops were very busy. And yes, the other half of my degree at Kings, we used to scuttle over the river to the RFH or the Nash...that was 10 years ago and those spaces feel far more welcoming now than they did then.
I did that degree myself (part-time, 1995-7). At that time, finding a place quiet enough to have a work-related conversation/meeting in the streets immediately around RADA was mostly a matter of luck, and the area around my workplace wasn't much better (I worked in Covent Garden). Yes, we also used the cafe in the British Museum; from Kings, our venue of choice was the National Film Theatre bar.
We are going on a tangent now but...my year was the year they reonovated the space that is now the Anatomy Museum into what is now a multi purpose performance and lecture space...however we had 'squatters rights' and as nobody else was using it we got to use it for meetings and working as well. It looks proper swish now.... www.kcl.ac.uk/cultural/-/spaces/anatomymuseum.aspxAdded fun is you could come up in the 'body lift' which was, as suggested the lift they used to use to bring the bodies up in... |
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Post by Phantom of London on Jan 7, 2019 13:22:11 GMT
I always assumed and certain I have been told this, that because the National receive public subsidy through the Art Council, it becomes a public building, that the public are free to enter whilst open, However they do not have to provide wi-if.
The South Park is one of the greatest places in London and is now a tourist attraction in itself and is so vibrant now and Ifor one love it, it is in my top 3 places in London now with Covent Garden and Soho. Lambeth and Southwark Council have done a tremendous job in delievering this. How many thousands of tourists walk past dying for pee and not realising they can use clean and free toilets and get a nice substantial meal for £10, also has great meat free dishes.
I would out source the coffee shop to my favourite place in between shows and that’s is Caffè Nero, the problem with the current coffee is that how many of the public realise they can use it and you don’t need to go to the theatre? With a big multi-National company this will break down this barrier and welcome more people.
The National Theatre is a national treasure and should welcome all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 13:25:40 GMT
Oh I have to disagree on the coffee. Not least because the NT coffee is like crack to me and I will actually riot if they change it.
On a serious note, I don't believe a subsidised building like the NT should outsource it's currently independent (well in-house) coffee shops to a national chain.
That and Nerro Coffee is so weak it can barely be described as coffee. But again that's the coffee snob in me talking.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 13:27:44 GMT
The balconies (and the skywalks around the Barbican centre) are a failure of post-war planning philosophy that tried to encourage people to ascend from street level, which was supposed to be left for cars and cargo to move efficiently around. We were all going to be walking in the sky..... Of course, this was back when the river was polluted and industrial, and the last thing anyone wanted to do was walk alongside it! There was a rather fascinating talk about this at the NT a couple of years ago by one of the architects involved. There was an interesting article on this in the Guardian last year - www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/oct/02/walkways-in-the-sky-the-return-of-londons-forgotten-pedwayskeep meaning to hunt for the one off Pudding Lane when I'm in the area. |
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Post by TallPaul on Jan 7, 2019 13:44:36 GMT
My most recent visit to the National Theatre was in July last year. I walked over Waterloo Bridge and, rather than descending to ground level (or rather riverbank level) I entered straight from the bridge via a walkway.
From what I remember, most of the balconies were being used...by young people, many still in school uniform, rehearsing their various street dance routines.
It would be interesting to know if anyone from either the artistic or marketing teams at the National have ever been outside to talk to them and ask A. If they know what the building is, and B. If they've ever been inside.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 13:58:05 GMT
Not least because the NT coffee is like crack to me and I will actually riot if they change it.  |
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Post by tmesis on Jan 7, 2019 14:07:54 GMT
Oh I have to disagree on the coffee. Not least because the NT coffee is like crack to me and I will actually riot if they change it. On a serious note, I don't believe a subsidised building like the NT should outsource it's currently independent (well in-house) coffee shops to a national chain. That and Nerro Coffee is so weak it can barely be described as coffee. But again that's the coffee snob in me talking. Totally agree. The Nash does some of the best coffee in London. |
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