907 posts
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Post by bordeaux on Jun 15, 2023 15:36:30 GMT
I do think as long standards aren't slipping quality wise, the national should be doing more new writing than old. Maybe invite new writers to adapt older plays as well for the modern day? Some revivals are fine, but i could without another classic Shakespeare play at the national. Given we have the RSC, I think there is an argument for not expecting the RNT to stage Shakespeare unless there is a compelling reason for doing otherwise. Of course, the RSC would possibly then need to return to bringing Shakespeare to London on a more regular basis. Given the state of the RSC I'm very glad the NT and other places are doing Shakespeare; otherwise I wouldn't get to see much! The NT and the Bridge are where I go for him these days. I do agree with you that I'd like the balance shifted in favour of more classics. |
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Post by Jan on Jun 15, 2023 15:41:08 GMT
One thing I don’t like about Norris’s programming is his decision to fill the Dorfmann with 100% new plays, it means the NT has entirely abandoned the lesser and more obscure classical repertoire because they can’t fill the two bigger auditoriums with them. For example he totally ignored the 400th anniversary of the birth of Molière as he has Ben Jonson, Shaw, Marlowe … it is a long list.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 15, 2023 15:42:35 GMT
Given we have the RSC, I think there is an argument for not expecting the RNT to stage Shakespeare unless there is a compelling reason for doing otherwise. Of course, the RSC would possibly then need to return to bringing Shakespeare to London on a more regular basis. Given the state of the RSC I'm very glad the NT and other places are doing Shakespeare; otherwise I wouldn't get to see much! The NT and the Bridge are where I go for him these days. If the NT were to stop doing Shakespeare, there would still be a good number of London companies doing the Bard. The Globe, the Almeida, the Bridge, the Donmar, Regent's Park plus the commercial productions such as the forthcoming Branagh Lear. I am not saying that the argument for the NT dropping Shakespeare is a compelling one. But when we have a nationally funded company dedicated to Shakespeare, there is a case for not expecting the NT to regularly featuring the plays wot Will wrote (or whoever did write them) |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 15, 2023 15:49:00 GMT
Some posts removed. If we could have the discussion without sniping at each other it would be appreciated, thank you.
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Post by showgirl on Jun 15, 2023 18:26:06 GMT
One thing I don’t like about Norris’s programming is his decision to fill the Dorfmann with 100% new plays, it means the NT has entirely abandoned the lesser and more obscure classical repertoire because they can’t fill the two bigger auditoriums with them. For example he totally ignored the 400th anniversary of the birth of Molière as he has Ben Jonson, Shaw, Marlowe … it is a long list. I see your point but on the other hand, for a lot of new plays, the smallest (albeit more expensive) space may be the safest place; it takes a big name to attract a Lyttelton/Olivier-size crowd to a new play and even the established writers aren't fail-safe. |
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Post by Jan on Jun 16, 2023 6:23:41 GMT
One thing I don’t like about Norris’s programming is his decision to fill the Dorfmann with 100% new plays, it means the NT has entirely abandoned the lesser and more obscure classical repertoire because they can’t fill the two bigger auditoriums with them. For example he totally ignored the 400th anniversary of the birth of Molière as he has Ben Jonson, Shaw, Marlowe … it is a long list. I see your point but on the other hand, for a lot of new plays, the smallest (albeit more expensive) space may be the safest place; it takes a big name to attract a Lyttelton/Olivier-size crowd to a new play and even the established writers aren't fail-safe. The Dorfmann always used to host new plays, just not ALL new plays until Norris took over. There are lots of smaller subsidised theatres which do new plays, some of them only new plays, so I don't think lack of alternative venues is a problem. In their latest email the Finborough said something interesting - that it was commercially better for them to stage new plays rather than obscure revivals - all the more reason for NT to put some of their massive subsidy behind that under-represented sector a little more than they do now (which is not at all). |
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Post by cavocado on Jun 16, 2023 8:47:39 GMT
I see your point but on the other hand, for a lot of new plays, the smallest (albeit more expensive) space may be the safest place; it takes a big name to attract a Lyttelton/Olivier-size crowd to a new play and even the established writers aren't fail-safe. The Dorfmann always used to host new plays, just not ALL new plays until Norris took over. There are lots of smaller subsidised theatres which do new plays, some of them only new plays, so I don't think lack of alternative venues is a problem. In their latest email the Finborough said something interesting - that it was commercially better for them to stage new plays rather than obscure revivals - all the more reason for NT to put some of their massive subsidy behind that under-represented sector a little more than they do now (which is not at all). While I'm excited by the season announcement and will probably see most, if not all of the plays, I very much agree with Jan about this. Part of a national theatre's job is surely to be a sort of custodian of theatre history, which means producing plays from all eras so that they are not just recordings/scripts, but currently in performance and engaging with modern audiences. This is particularly important with the Globe and RSC having largely abandoned non-Shakespeare revivals at the moment. Even for well known revivals it's a shame that there's not sometimes an option for NT productions that use the flexible and more intimate space of the Dorfman rather than having to be on a scale that fits the Lyttelton or Olivier. |
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Post by Mark on Jun 16, 2023 9:06:52 GMT
It's interesting what everyone considers as being most important to them when it comes to the National Theatre programming. I think pretty much everything in this line up looks great, especially the new Dorfman plays Infinite Life, Till the Stars Come Down and The Hot Wing King.
That said, I'm someone who could take or leave Shakespeare. Once I've seen a play once I'm unlikely to go again for another production unless the casting really appeals.
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Post by londonpostie on Jun 16, 2023 10:13:30 GMT
I mentioned in a deleted post that this can't be a normal season of work, mostly lockdown related. The NT is a co-producer, it has in-house associates, it has to take windows of opportunity with headliners who have comittments elsewhere - an awful lot got backed up and there are an awful lot of organisations and individuals who are invested, financially and career-wise, in their relationships with the NT.
Take Alexander Zeldin - NT Associate; has to get stuff out there or what's the point of working with the NT. Annie Baker -NT obv. made a commitment with a future piece of work and has to put it out ASAP. Promises to new writers. Co-producers the same, and on it goes. Endlessly. Balancing acts, plate spinning, shuffling, assuaging.
Imagine all the stuff - so much - that didn't make it into this season. Maybe the old chestnuts can wait a while in these unique circs.
And it's no different out here in the real world; potholes didn't just appear, lifts/escalators break down because the routine maintenance schedules went to sh!t, operations (excess deaths are extraordinary). Despite being back at work - apart from the magic money tree early retirees, the entire society is a very long way from being normalised; self-employed artists are still paying the price of that.
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Post by profquatermass on Jun 16, 2023 10:22:44 GMT
I was surprised to learn that Dear Octopus hasn't been revived in 57 years. Potentially an interesting rediscovery - fascinating to read about the opening production on Wikipedia. Gielgud in the original cast. Leslie Philips talks a lot about the first production in his autobiography. He and, IIRC Muriel Pavlow, were the two children |
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Post by Jon on Jun 16, 2023 11:49:02 GMT
I mentioned in a deleted post that this can't be a normal season of work, mostly lockdown related. The NT is a co-producer, it has in-house associates, it has to take windows of opportunity with headliners who have comittments elsewhere - an awful lot got backed up and there are an awful lot of organisations and individuals who are invested, financially and career-wise, in their relationships with the NT. Take Alexander Zeldin - NT Associate; has to get stuff out there or what's the point of working with the NT. Annie Baker -NT obv. made a commitment with a future piece of work and has to put it out ASAP. Promises to new writers. Co-producers the same, and on it goes. Endlessly. Balancing acts, plate spinning, shuffling, assuaging. Imagine all the stuff - so much - that didn't make it into this season. Maybe the old chestnuts can wait a while in these unique circs. And it's no different out here in the real world; potholes didn't just appear, lifts/escalators break down because the routine maintenance schedules went to sh!t, operations (excess deaths are extraordinary). Despite being back at work - apart from the magic money tree early retirees, the entire society is a very long way from being normalised; self-employed artists are still paying the price of that. Looking at the theatrical landscape, there are plenty of revivals being done so actually the National focusing on mostly new work for a season isn't a big deal. It's not to say that I'm against revivals, I'm quite excited for Plaza Suite next year just because Neil Simon's work isn't done as often in the UK and even Stoppard's later plays like The Invention of Love and The Coast of Utopia have not received revivals yet, the latter I suspect is probably too expensive to do. |
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Post by lynette on Jun 16, 2023 12:55:05 GMT
Is this where we are discussing the next AD of the NT? Please direct me, ta
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2,512 posts
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Post by zahidf on Jun 16, 2023 12:57:26 GMT
Rufus Stepping down Spring 2025. New person in place end of the year Baz says they are a few candidates |
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Post by Jan on Jun 16, 2023 14:16:03 GMT
I mentioned in a deleted post that this can't be a normal season of work, mostly lockdown related. The NT is a co-producer, it has in-house associates, it has to take windows of opportunity with headliners who have comittments elsewhere - an awful lot got backed up and there are an awful lot of organisations and individuals who are invested, financially and career-wise, in their relationships with the NT. Take Alexander Zeldin - NT Associate; has to get stuff out there or what's the point of working with the NT. Annie Baker -NT obv. made a commitment with a future piece of work and has to put it out ASAP. Promises to new writers. Co-producers the same, and on it goes. Endlessly. Balancing acts, plate spinning, shuffling, assuaging. Imagine all the stuff - so much - that didn't make it into this season. Maybe the old chestnuts can wait a while in these unique circs. And it's no different out here in the real world; potholes didn't just appear, lifts/escalators break down because the routine maintenance schedules went to sh!t, operations (excess deaths are extraordinary). Despite being back at work - apart from the magic money tree early retirees, the entire society is a very long way from being normalised; self-employed artists are still paying the price of that. But this new season is no different to any other season he’s programmed even before Covid is it ? A clear majority of new plays and a few high-profile revivals. It’s in line with what he said before he took the job actually. |
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Post by londonpostie on Jun 16, 2023 14:24:32 GMT
Maybe it was policy choice before whereas, now, it's necessary.
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Post by lynette on Jun 16, 2023 17:34:22 GMT
I’m sorry to say that I think the Rufus era has been a disaster for the NT. He didn’t take us anywhere in terms of new work or revivals or classical theatre. My attendance just dwindled even before Covid. The Covid era was certainly bad luck for him but post Covid he should have had a few ideas ready to fly. It reminds me of when he took over. I wonder how these guys operate. If you were up for the big job would you not have a few ideas ready based on phone calls to directors, writers and actors? I do not that some of us are happy with his latest programming but as I browse through the brochure I am not inspired. Lots of new plays rather like a Donmar or a Hampstead programme, nothing to say this is the premier theatre of the UK, we put on the very best of international theatre and classical theatre, we have three dynamic spaces and with a repertoire to suit all ages and tastes….I’m dreaming. I went to see the Motive and Cue recently. Drab foyer, nothing happening there or in the vastly open spaces in front, no buskers, nada. Food offerings poor. ( snacks dire) This new restaurant? Anybody fancy? Honestly, they should get a grip. They sit on what must be one of the most iconic bits of real estate in Europe but could be a converted factory in Wembley. Apologies to Wembley but you get my drift.
I’m hoping for a couple of new ADs ( yes I’m a pluralist) with ideas, who can take a company with them and create a vibrant theatre venue.
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Post by Jan on Jun 16, 2023 17:54:35 GMT
Maybe it was policy choice before whereas, now, it's necessary. Occam's razor suggests that if it was a policy choice then it's a policy choice now. |
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Post by londonpostie on Jun 16, 2023 17:56:53 GMT
First stab at a summary of the Rufus Norris era in the Telegraph today. It's paywalled but you can avoid it. I won't put the link here because the post will likely be deleted but if you google '12ft ladder' you might find something. www.telegraph.co.uk/theatre/what-to-see/rufus-norris-national-theatre/
It focuses on a comparison between Hytner's era and what Norris dished up (Norris suffering in the comparison). It also makes a point of Norris steering the Nash though the instability of the covid years, which might as well have been through the Woke years (surely at least as problematic). Certainly twin issues of great significance. A section >> Rufus Norris: the man who never escaped Nicholas Hytner's shadow
The self-effacing National Theatre director could not match the glamour, innovation and canny self-preservation of his predecessor
With covid and Woke, he has had both barrels of a shotgun through the guts of his tenure which makes it all very difficult to judge from outside the building. IMO!
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Post by Jan on Jun 16, 2023 17:58:27 GMT
I’m sorry to say that I think the Rufus era has been a disaster for the NT. He didn’t take us anywhere in terms of new work or revivals or classical theatre. My attendance just dwindled even before Covid. The Covid era was certainly bad luck for him but post Covid he should have had a few ideas ready to fly. It reminds me of when he took over. I wonder how these guys operate. If you were up for the big job would you not have a few ideas ready based on phone calls to directors, writers and actors? I do not that some of us are happy with his latest programming but as I browse through the brochure I am not inspired. Lots of new plays rather like a Donmar or a Hampstead programme, nothing to say this is the premier theatre of the UK, we put on the very best of international theatre and classical theatre, we have three dynamic spaces and with a repertoire to suit all ages and tastes….I’m dreaming. I went to see the Motive and Cue recently. Drab foyer, nothing happening there or in the vastly open spaces in front, no buskers, nada. Food offerings poor. ( snacks dire) This new restaurant? Anybody fancy? Honestly, they should get a grip. They sit on what must be one of the most iconic bits of real estate in Europe but could be a converted factory in Wembley. Apologies to Wembley but you get my drift. I’m hoping for a couple of new ADs ( yes I’m a pluralist) with ideas, who can take a company with them and create a vibrant theatre venue. I wouldn't say disaster - he's no Greg Doran - but it was a lacklustre appointment. He should have been AD at the Almeida and Rupert Goold should have been at the NT. Nothing to suggest they will make a better appointment next time though. |
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Post by Jan on Jun 16, 2023 19:19:28 GMT
First stab at a summary of the Rufus Norris era in the Telegraph today. It's paywalled but you can avoid it. I won't put the link here because the post will likely be deleted but if you google '12ft ladder' you might find something. www.telegraph.co.uk/theatre/what-to-see/rufus-norris-national-theatre/
It focuses on a comparison between Hytner's era and what Norris dished up (Norris suffering in the comparison). It also makes a point of Norris steering the Nash though the instability of the covid years, which might as well have been through the Woke years (surely at least as problematic). Certainly twin issues of great significance. A section >> Rufus Norris: the man who never escaped Nicholas Hytner's shadow
The self-effacing National Theatre director could not match the glamour, innovation and canny self-preservation of his predecessor
With covid and Woke, he has had both barrels of a shotgun through the guts of his tenure which makes it all very difficult to judge from outside the building. IMO!
On balance I think he's been the worst AD they've had, it's a toss up between him and Richard Eyre, no question the others were far better. |
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Post by Jon on Jun 16, 2023 20:06:38 GMT
The Telegraph's article is quite eye rolling!
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Post by Latecomer on Jun 16, 2023 21:29:40 GMT
Lynette for the job. That is it. She has my vote!
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Post by zahidf on Jun 16, 2023 22:01:27 GMT
I'm not sure I'd agree the bridge was commercially more successful than the national. They had a lot of terrible plays as well
I think Norris has had more hits than misses. Recently especially has been a great run of stuff.
I agree they should do more to welcome people in though, the foyer is a little dull.
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Post by dlevi on Jun 16, 2023 22:48:09 GMT
In the last couple of months the National has turned out some terrific productions: The Crucible, The Corn is Green, Phaedra, The Motive and the Cue, Dancing at Lunghasa and colllectively they almost make up for the financial and artistic debacle that was "hex". But the new writing in the Dorfman has been lackluster ( Dixon and Daughters, anyone?) and as others have pointed out walking into the building isn't the joyful experience it was during the Hytner years - what happened to the Platforms? Why is the bookshop a tourist shop worthy of the London Eye and what's with all the signage saying "Welcome, we're an inclusive space...etc. etc.." Don't announce that you're an inclusive space - simply BE an inclusive space. The National is a great theatre and wonderful institution but it needs to act like a great theatre and unique institution and the nepotism and the elevation of some artists who perhaps aren't ready yet ( Clint Dyer anyone?) is what Rufus will leave behind. Of course there were some great shows but the streamlining changes - no plays in rep, some sets that were down right cheap, the farming out of all the food, the elimination of the Oliver cloak room, etc etc. are the stains on the National's reputation and they're his legacy.
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Post by lynette on Jun 16, 2023 23:02:15 GMT
I'm not sure I'd agree the bridge was commercially more successful than the national. They had a lot of terrible plays as well I think Norris has had more hits than misses. Recently especially has been a great run of stuff. I agree they should do more to welcome people in though, the foyer is a little dull. But the Bridge isn’t the “national” theatre, it is a commercial off West End ( admittedly fab location ) venue which has to wash its face and which post Covid has managed to produce a money making popular and artistically excellent show. The NT is supposed to be quality, represent the nation ( all 4 bits of the UK as it currently stands ) and put on European in translation and other English speaking theatre and classical etc but primarily British Drama, no? We can debate a programme and with three venues there is scope for disagreement, space for new work too. It is now just another theatre in London, just as pricey, fewer facilities than some, offering nothing special. |
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