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Post by tmesis on Jan 5, 2019 18:56:31 GMT
I've been thinking for some time how scruffy the recently redeveloped NT is looking after only around four (?) years of use. The carpet, which was completely new then, is threadbare in many places and the upholstery of the seating in the Lyttleton circle foyer area is equally worn, with the stuffing hanging out of some seats. Visiting the gents near the main ground floor bar needs Bear Grylls-like exploratory skills. Today was relatively civilised but it is not pleasant to have to pee standing in a pool of others urine which is frequently the case. The NTs 'open door' policy I applaud but this doesn't help keep the place looking pristine.
The RFH has a similar policy and this is even more tawdry in appearance!
Anyone else noticed this, or am I being over-precious?
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Post by asfound on Jan 5, 2019 20:24:17 GMT
The NTs 'open door' policy I applaud but this doesn't help keep the place looking pristine. Probably an unpopular opinion round here but personally I've never been a huge fan of this idea in London that all arts venues have to be free for all public spaces as well. There should be/are public toilets, libraries, lounges, student centres and community centres for people that need to work or use the facilities. There have been too many times going to the Barbican or NT to see something where I have found nowhere to sit and have a drink or meet friends because there are crowds of people working, sleeping, studying charging phones and so on. I believe there needs to be a balance between exclusivity (to manage numbers) and inclusiveness but I think in London the venues take it too far to the point where it is actually unpleasant at times. Why not have them open to the public when there is nothing on but to ticket holders, tours and people using the bar/restaurants for events? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 10:24:27 GMT
I mean I could look up an appropriate reference from my library of NT books ... but it's Sunday morning and well...but part of the original (rather substantial) money for the building was to provide public spaces. And I'd imagine forms part of their annual 'please can we have some more money arts council thank you' application.
Also in case anyone hadn't noticed we are woefully short on community spaces of any kind. Why can't theatres be that?
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Post by learfan on Jan 6, 2019 12:01:42 GMT
Considering the amount of money that has been spent on at least two big refurbishments in the last 20 odd years, i agree the place looks poor. I too am getting tired of the amount of people, mostly students who are there to take advantage of the free wifi. But yes, the SBC is similar as is the new Other Place in Stratford. Maybe we're just getting old.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Jan 6, 2019 12:17:50 GMT
I have always enjoyed the public space between a matinee and evening performance even when these are elsewhere in London, it is warm, has wi-fi and without the expectation to spend money to be there.
Not really noticed the tattiness but am seriously missing the two leather chairs in the gallery area, a more comfortable way to pass the time reading and noticeably quieter than the foyer areas, at least the toilets in this area remain a well kept kept secret and always quiet and clean, even during intervals.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 12:25:31 GMT
Yes, I like the fact that the foyers of the NT and RFH are available and free to use.
I think the RFH has the balance right - the upper level foyers are open to ticket holders only when there's a show on. In the members' bar they also have a "gadget free" policy in the evening (which in practice really just means no laptops) so the areas aren't occupied by people working.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 13:15:49 GMT
Fun fact (well relatively) the RFH used to allow Hip Hop/Street Dancers space in it's Foyer's/around the building during quieter times, something that has unfortunately for the dancers now diminished slightly.
The NT and RFH (though I personally don't use the latter) provide great 'meeting space' in every sense of the word, but also offer space for creatives to have meetings meet each other etc etc. which is difficult to do in central London without the pressure of space and money.
Arts organisations (rightly so) get a bad rep for being unwelcoming to the average person. That the NT and RFH are welcoming spaces to spend time in should be to their credit, not a bunch of theatre snobs waving programmes shouting 'get of my lawn'
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Post by asfound on Jan 6, 2019 14:21:06 GMT
Fun fact (well relatively) the RFH used to allow Hip Hop/Street Dancers space in it's Foyer's/around the building during quieter times, something that has unfortunately for the dancers now diminished slightly. The NT and RFH (though I personally don't use the latter) provide great 'meeting space' in every sense of the word, but also offer space for creatives to have meetings meet each other etc etc. which is difficult to do in central London without the pressure of space and money. Arts organisations (rightly so) get a bad rep for being unwelcoming to the average person. That the NT and RFH are welcoming spaces to spend time in should be to their credit, not a bunch of theatre snobs waving programmes shouting 'get of my lawn' Yes, yes, trust me I have many posh right on Guardian reading type friends with the old "we love those plucky skateboarders under the NT, makes us feel a frisson of urban grittiness between the cocktails and the show" attitude that say the same things. Doesn't mean there isn't a problem during intervals and before shows with capacity and maintenance issues mentioned above. And I know people of that sort really wish your elitist hobbies were shared with the "common man", but the fact is theatre is a niche interest and giving people free wifi and a sofa isn't going to get the queuing up for Ibsen I'm afraid. Best to just accept that different people enjoy different things - because football stadiums and street dance clubs aren't suddenly going to open their doors to you. The only good point you make is the council funding stipulations, if that's the case then that's how it has to be. |
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Post by sf on Jan 6, 2019 14:21:25 GMT
Members of the public spending time in public spaces? The nerve.
As Emi said, I'd bet keeping those spaces public is part of the terms attached to their funding. And beyond that, it is incredibly important that these buildings are perceived as accessible to everyone. Far too many people grow up with the perception that the arts are just for posh people. Open the doors to the building, make it a friendly, welcoming place, and you might well broaden your audience in the process. If that means the National has to replace some carpets and upholstery a couple of years earlier than they would have otherwise, it's a price worth paying.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 14:25:33 GMT
Fun fact (well relatively) the RFH used to allow Hip Hop/Street Dancers space in it's Foyer's/around the building during quieter times, something that has unfortunately for the dancers now diminished slightly. The NT and RFH (though I personally don't use the latter) provide great 'meeting space' in every sense of the word, but also offer space for creatives to have meetings meet each other etc etc. which is difficult to do in central London without the pressure of space and money. Arts organisations (rightly so) get a bad rep for being unwelcoming to the average person. That the NT and RFH are welcoming spaces to spend time in should be to their credit, not a bunch of theatre snobs waving programmes shouting 'get of my lawn' Yes, yes, trust me I have many posh right on Guardian reading type friends with the old "we love those plucky skateboarders under the NT, makes us feel a frisson of urban grittiness between the cocktails and the show" attitude that say the same things. Doesn't mean there isn't a problem during intervals and before shows with capacity and maintenance issues mentioned above. And I know people of that sort really wish your elitist hobbies were shared with the "common man", but the fact is theatre is a niche interest and giving people free wifi and a sofa isn't going to get the queuing up for Ibsen I'm afraid. Best to just accept that different people enjoy different things - because football stadiums and street dance clubs aren't suddenly going to open their doors to you. The only good point you make is the council funding stipulations, if that's the case then that's how it has to be. Yes, yes I'm such a posh right on Guardian reader... But I think you'll find 'common' is a much more used descriptor of me. But anyway flinging thinly veiled insults aside, there is no reason there isn't a good compromise, as with RFH a 'ticket holders' floor/area is perfectly reasonable on days the NT has a full rep happening. Which incidentally is rarely. They do also make announcements to try and clear the place, but frankly probably don't have enough staff to check everyone in the building. Also someone could in fact be sat there with a laptop AND seeing the show. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 14:33:00 GMT
ALL are welcome
At the Chanel shop
Fewer can actually afford to buy anything there
Same should apply to theatre
I don’t want the public areas blocked up
With people who have no intention
Of seeing a show
Sitting in the foyer and using the free WiFi
Is unlikely to lead to seeing a play there
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 14:34:28 GMT
I'm not sure how likely people who just wander in to sit down are to go on and see Ibsen, but I suspect they are more likely to do that (or at least get an idea of what's on, how much things cost etc) than they are if they are locked out. Other places are going down the same route - eg the Royal Opera House opening up the public areas during the day (as with the RFH there are still bars which are for ticket holders only), and the Colliseum was planning the same thing but not seen any sign of that happening yet. The National could probably free up a lot of space if they just switched the wifi off at 6PM  . Or you only get 30 minutes wifi unless you type in an access code that's on your theatre ticket, or something. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 14:41:54 GMT
Radical idea: make NT shows things the average person using the wifi wants to see, and can afford.
(to be fair on the latter the NT does a better job than most)
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Post by peggs on Jan 6, 2019 15:12:41 GMT
RFH? Over tired and failing to identify.
So I go to Nt fairly often but go as often again as noted as warm, free place to hang out when I'm between other less spacious theatre going. So is that 'allowed?'
It is busier than it once was and yes sometimes harder to find somewhere close to sit but better that than empty. But yes I miss those leather sofas too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 15:25:30 GMT
I used to work in a bookshop with comfy leather chairs. Believe me, you do NOT want publicly available comfy leather seating.
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Post by Backdrifter on Jan 6, 2019 16:58:10 GMT
The NTs 'open door' policy I applaud but this doesn't help keep the place looking pristine. Probably an unpopular opinion round here but personally I've never been a huge fan of this idea in London that all arts venues have to be free for all public spaces as well. There should be/are public toilets, libraries, lounges, student centres and community centres for people that need to work or use the facilities. There have been too many times going to the Barbican or NT to see something where I have found nowhere to sit and have a drink or meet friends because there are crowds of people working, sleeping, studying charging phones and so on. I believe there needs to be a balance between exclusivity (to manage numbers) and inclusiveness but I think in London the venues take it too far to the point where it is actually unpleasant at times. Why not have them open to the public when there is nothing on but to ticket holders, tours and people using the bar/restaurants for events? What a shame some people in this thread are coming across so whiny, as above, about having trouble finding somewhere to sit in the NT or as you've mentioned here, the Barbican. Though you might bear in mind the latter is part of a large residential complex - heaven forbid any of the residents might be among those inconveniently taking up space. Also a shame that in your later post you had to needlessly dribble some bile onto the discussion, as @emicardiff commented. When you go into public places, sometimes they're crowded and you can't find a seat or SHOCK HORROR you have to wait for one. The idea that the NT should be protected from this by - what? showing tickets for admission to the bar, eating areas and shop? - is laughable. Though I assume the catering and shop managers wouldn't be laughing, nor thanking whoever was responsible for such a ridiculous notion. So what if public access doesn't result in mass attendance at productions? That's not a reason to exclude non-ticket holders. I can't believe anyone thinks it is but they evidently do. As to the actual thread subject, I haven't been to the NT much recently but on the rare occasions I have, I can't say I've especially noticed the tattyness. But yeah I'm sure it's down to the hordes of grubby non-theatregoers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 17:13:31 GMT
It's tangental also, but related to NT decor, Hermonie Norris' house in Luther had corridors that looked very much like the concrete monstrosity itself to the point for a while I was convinced they'd filmed in the backstage corridors.
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Post by Backdrifter on Jan 6, 2019 18:30:54 GMT
It's tangental also, but related to NT decor, Hermonie Norris' house in Luther had corridors that looked very much like the concrete monstrosity itself to the point for a while I was convinced they'd filmed in the backstage corridors. After Mrs Backdrifter said how much she LIKES the bare concrete look and I finished rolling my eyes, my comment was that it looked like a 1970s university. I half expected to see Howard Kirk on his way to a sociology tutorial. I don't think it's any worse than the houses at the end of so many Grand Designs episodes, the ones consisting mainly of white space and entire walls of glass, designed and lived in by psychos. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 7:34:23 GMT
Oh I love having the great unwashed milling around at The Nash. They detract from having to look at all that concrete, there are very often several crimes against fashion that make me titter between shows and more importantly, there are always plenty of them around to do the important things like refreshing my glass and collecting my coat and such like. It's like having the help wherever you go. Just without having to pay them or hide them from the Home Office when they visit.
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Post by asfound on Jan 7, 2019 8:18:33 GMT
Probably an unpopular opinion round here but personally I've never been a huge fan of this idea in London that all arts venues have to be free for all public spaces as well. There should be/are public toilets, libraries, lounges, student centres and community centres for people that need to work or use the facilities. There have been too many times going to the Barbican or NT to see something where I have found nowhere to sit and have a drink or meet friends because there are crowds of people working, sleeping, studying charging phones and so on. I believe there needs to be a balance between exclusivity (to manage numbers) and inclusiveness but I think in London the venues take it too far to the point where it is actually unpleasant at times. Why not have them open to the public when there is nothing on but to ticket holders, tours and people using the bar/restaurants for events? What a shame some people in this thread are coming across so whiny, as above, about having trouble finding somewhere to sit in the NT or as you've mentioned here, the Barbican. Though you might bear in mind the latter is part of a large residential complex - heaven forbid any of the residents might be among those inconveniently taking up space. Also a shame that in your later post you had to needlessly dribble some bile onto the discussion, as @emicardiff commented. When you go into public places, sometimes they're crowded and you can't find a seat or SHOCK HORROR you have to wait for one. The idea that the NT should be protected from this by - what? showing tickets for admission to the bar, eating areas and shop? - is laughable. Though I assume the catering and shop managers wouldn't be laughing, nor thanking whoever was responsible for such a ridiculous notion. So what if public access doesn't result in mass attendance at productions? That's not a reason to exclude non-ticket holders. I can't believe anyone thinks it is but they evidently do. As to the actual thread subject, I haven't been to the NT much recently but on the rare occasions I have, I can't say I've especially noticed the tattyness. But yeah I'm sure it's down to the hordes of grubby non-theatregoers. Nearly every theatre I've been to in the world has this system, it's really not that complicated - I suspect in the scramble for self-righteousness and empty PR sounding sloganeering about "openness" people on this thread haven't really stopped to question the logic of why a theatre has to be a public space, why it has to be provide a student learning zone and free office space and conference call centre. And I hate to burst your echo chamber, but many people are annoyed by this - go and eavesdrop on people crowding round ten to a table or wandering back and forth trying to find a seat or somewhere to have a drink. If I walk past the NT after work at 5.30 and I feel like seeing one of the very rarely sold out shows I'm not going to feel inclined to spend a hard earned £40 if I can't sit and relax somewhere comfortable for the 2 hours before the show starts. I suppose the NT doesn't need the money or the money of people who would spend at the bar if they could find a spot. Another thing I'm curious about which I suspect this all stems from - I'm interested in a wide variety of arts, music and events, but it only seems to be theatre, and specifically theatre in London, that has this weird, almost guilty anguish from its patrons. All this handwringing about making everything OPEN TO ALL TM etc. I never see anywhere else. I guess it must be a kind of self-loathing about being interested in a medium considered (using phrases I've seen here) posh and elite. But I'm just not susceptible to that, different demographics like different things, it's not automatically a bad thing. This stuff about people feeling excluded seems to be mostly projection, again stemming from that conflict about being interested in what is considered an "elite" artform. Don't be so insecure. |
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Post by asfound on Jan 7, 2019 8:22:12 GMT
Yes, yes, trust me I have many posh right on Guardian reading type friends with the old "we love those plucky skateboarders under the NT, makes us feel a frisson of urban grittiness between the cocktails and the show" attitude that say the same things. Doesn't mean there isn't a problem during intervals and before shows with capacity and maintenance issues mentioned above. And I know people of that sort really wish your elitist hobbies were shared with the "common man", but the fact is theatre is a niche interest and giving people free wifi and a sofa isn't going to get the queuing up for Ibsen I'm afraid. Best to just accept that different people enjoy different things - because football stadiums and street dance clubs aren't suddenly going to open their doors to you. The only good point you make is the council funding stipulations, if that's the case then that's how it has to be. Yes, yes I'm such a posh right on Guardian reader... But I think you'll find 'common' is a much more used descriptor of me. But anyway flinging thinly veiled insults aside, there is no reason there isn't a good compromise, as with RFH a 'ticket holders' floor/area is perfectly reasonable on days the NT has a full rep happening. Which incidentally is rarely. They do also make announcements to try and clear the place, but frankly probably don't have enough staff to check everyone in the building. Also someone could in fact be sat there with a laptop AND seeing the show. It honestly wasn't meant to be an insult, I know nothing of your background - it's just where I've heard that sentiment a lot. And I would agree with your compromise, it's what I was getting at in my original post: Why not have them open to the public when there is nothing on but to ticket holders, tours and people using the bar/restaurants for events? |
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Post by vdcni on Jan 7, 2019 8:52:16 GMT
I can't say I've ever found it a problem to get a seat or find an area in the NT, even downstairs where you would expect it to be an issue. Obviously up at the Olivier levels it tends to be theatre goers only.
With a book shop, bar and cafe to support plus free exhibitions I would think the NT would find it tricky to stop non ticket holders coming in during theatre times with its current layout.
Personally I'd like theatre to be accessible and open to all not because I'm feeling guilt or self loathing but because I love it and want other people to experience it as well plus the more people who love theatre the more there will be so a win for current theatre goers.
I'll leave the feeling superior to the 'masses' to other people on this thread.
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Post by Backdrifter on Jan 7, 2019 8:59:05 GMT
What a shame some people in this thread are coming across so whiny, as above, about having trouble finding somewhere to sit in the NT or as you've mentioned here, the Barbican. Though you might bear in mind the latter is part of a large residential complex - heaven forbid any of the residents might be among those inconveniently taking up space. Also a shame that in your later post you had to needlessly dribble some bile onto the discussion, as @emicardiff commented. When you go into public places, sometimes they're crowded and you can't find a seat or SHOCK HORROR you have to wait for one. The idea that the NT should be protected from this by - what? showing tickets for admission to the bar, eating areas and shop? - is laughable. Though I assume the catering and shop managers wouldn't be laughing, nor thanking whoever was responsible for such a ridiculous notion. So what if public access doesn't result in mass attendance at productions? That's not a reason to exclude non-ticket holders. I can't believe anyone thinks it is but they evidently do. As to the actual thread subject, I haven't been to the NT much recently but on the rare occasions I have, I can't say I've especially noticed the tattyness. But yeah I'm sure it's down to the hordes of grubby non-theatregoers. the scramble for self-righteousness empty PR sounding sloganeering why a theatre has to provide a student learning zone and free office space and conference call centre echo chamber guilty anguish handwringing OPEN TO ALL TM self-loathing insecure If I walk past the NT after work at 5.30 and I feel like seeing one of the very rarely sold out shows I'm not going to feel inclined to spend a hard earned £40 if I can't sit and relax somewhere comfortable for the 2 hours before the show starts. I suppose the NT doesn't need the money or the money of people who would spend at the bar if they could find a spot. many people are annoyed by this - go and eavesdrop on people crowding round ten to a table or wandering back and forth trying to find a seat or somewhere to have a drink Dearie me, what a parade of overheated finger-in-the-air-waving. But it did give me a couple of chuckles so thanks at least for that. I love the idea that theatregoers looking for a drink on arriving and finding no seats will, en masse, sigh and say "Oh well, better not get that drink then" and leave. And thanks for the suggestion that I sidle up and listen to the aggrieved whining of the oppressed theatregoers cruelly forced to huddle around one small table or wandering seatless, but I'll pass. Incidentally, where are the data on NT public area usage? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 9:16:00 GMT
hehe I did have a chuckle at the above...
Some of the data should be in their annual reports and/or some of the ACE published data...as it happens I need to look for other facts and figures about the NT for work this week, so I might have a dig about for some of these fun facts today as well...oh that's right I know how to live...
Meanwhile I shall be sure to do my best charity work with the great unwashed of the South Bank next time I'm in town.
Incidentally the far end (away from the bookshop) has a great view of the BFI 'Stage Door' and you can do some excellent celeb spotting if that's your bag. It' also where I sat close enough to touch Tamin Greig one time. But the restraining order has prevented that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2019 9:22:49 GMT
I guess there's an issue that when these areas were originally set up for public access, wifi and laptops didn't exist and (more) public libraries did exist so you were less likely to get people camped out all day in the space?
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. Or you only get 30 minutes wifi unless you type in an access code that's on your theatre ticket, or something.
