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Post by Dawnstar on Mar 28, 2016 19:12:10 GMT
I knew people would be able to come up with some shows with no romance in. Cats does have Growltiger's Last Stand, where Growltiger is romancing Griddlebone, and The Rum Tum Tugger used to be staged with some of the female cats fawning over him (I don't know if that has been changed with the number having been re-written) so you could argue there's a bit of romance in there! Billy Elliot didn't occur to me and I've never seen either Matilda or Charlie, due to really disliking Dahl.
I was thinking of love/romance in the falling in love sense rather than platonic love for relations etc.
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Post by mrtumnus on Mar 28, 2016 21:34:13 GMT
I've been thinking about this discussion & as far as I can think all musicals, whether great or not, include love/romance in some form. Can anyone think of any musical that doesn't? Jesus Christ Superstar Joseph - although Potiphar's wife tries unsuccessfully to seduce him. Godspell Whisky Galore |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 21:49:05 GMT
Jesus Christ Superstar contains one of the best known love songs of all time: I don't know how to love him...
I don't think Moby Dick had a love plot. How about something like Nunsense? (Years since I've seen it...)
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Post by mrtumnus on Mar 28, 2016 22:11:49 GMT
Jesus Christ Superstar contains one of the best known love songs of all time: I don't know how to love him... But no romance. Mary has discovered the unconditional love Jesus has for human-kind and struggles to come to terms with this. PS - Had a wee chuckle that Caiaphas replied. |
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Post by synchrony on Mar 28, 2016 23:23:20 GMT
I can think of musicals with amazing scores but weak books that I love (Mack and Mabel). I can also think of musicals with weak scores but amazing books that I love (Blood Brothers). I can't think of any musicals with weak scores AND weak books that I love.
I wouldn't personally call the whole musical great unless it has both, but that doesn't mean I don't love them and see great aspects in them.
I think the production does matter. I've seen musicals that I think COULD be very good performed terribly badly and could still get a feel for how it might have been (Dogfight - not at Southwark!). Also, the production will change how you feel about that show. I personally loved the Menier production of Pippin and the direction made me see the show in a whole new light. But it's not all about big effects and flash. I love the Fringe more than the big commercial shows more and more. The performers have to make me believe in their emotion. The helicopter was great but if I hadn't cared about Kim and Chris's fate then it would have meant nothing.
A great musical, for me, has to touch my soul. It doesn't need to be perfect, but I agree with Theatremonkey for saying "One that changes forever how you feel, look at or think about some aspect of life or the world.
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I also love to be surprised. I remember the first time I saw Into the Woods and realised what the Princes were really like, and thought it was brilliant. And the lyrics are so clever and don't always go in the way I expect. I love some unpredictability. Thus Jersey Boys/Buddy/Beautiful, to me, are definitely NOT great.
All the shows I love the most DO have great lyrics, tunes and plots, and have mostly been produced well in the versions I've seen. But, more than that, they are the ones that have succeeded in making me sob, or laugh, or both, and really care about the characters and touched some aspect of my own life. By my own definition, this means that shows as diverse as Into the Woods, Wicked and Carrie (which is clearly flawed in some ways, but made a huge impact on me) are great, to me.
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Post by synchrony on Mar 28, 2016 23:27:04 GMT
PS Chicago doesn't really have any big love/romance does it?! Don't think Roxy and Amos (or the 'love' the merry murderesses had for their victims) counts?!?!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 16:11:42 GMT
I've been writing a musical for a few months now. Your comments are really interesting to me. I feel like we have a great concept, but getting the actual book right is soooo difficult, yet very important. You have to try and get to a high point at the end of the first act, but you have to save some stuff for the second act as well otherwise the second act will be disappointing. I'm very aware of the fact that in order to make the musical succeed we'll need a great "I want song" early on in the show, a huge first act finale and a very strong 11 o'clock song. But of course, none of these songs will have a big impact if the book isn't solid. It's really tough, but I think it will be very rewarding once it's finished.
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Post by mallardo on Apr 29, 2016 16:54:07 GMT
What you really want to do in the book is to keep the surprises coming. When you come up with a scene that you like and that advances the plot, ask yourself how it could be switched up to give it a different and more interesting perspective. Always ask yourself that - don't settle for the standard take on it, ever. If the audience gets ahead of your story you're done.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 17:02:51 GMT
What you really want to do in the book is to keep the surprises coming. When you come up with a scene that you like and that advances the plot, ask yourself how it could be switched up to give it a different and more interesting perspective. Always ask yourself that - don't settle for the standard take on it, ever. If the audience gets ahead of your story you're done. The main problem at the moment is that I have a very big first act finale but the scenes leading up to it are hardly about anything. The only purpose they serve is they set up the finale. These scenes are necessary for the finale to work, but the dialogue in these scenes is very uninteresting so far because the characters don't really have that much to talk about because the thing that's going to change the pace of the story hasn't happened yet. Very frustrating to know you have a great first act finale, but your lead up to it is quite boring |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 17:10:21 GMT
Something that you connect with and have an emotional reaction to. Whether that's joy (e.g. mamma mia, hairspray) or on a deeper level (e.g. les miserables, parade, billy elliot )
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 17:10:23 GMT
Throw in a tap number. Job done. Works every time. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 17:18:47 GMT
Throw in a tap number. Job done. Works every time. I was actually planning on doing that for one of the scenes that I'm struggling with  It probably will help a lot to fill the void. It's always great to have some good old-fashioned entertainment right before moving on to a big dramatic moment |
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Post by mallardo on Apr 29, 2016 17:40:20 GMT
You can't have scenes that are there just to set up other scenes - there's no room for that. The show will sag and your act one finale will be undermined. Sounds like you need to rethink the story, perhaps complicate it so that something interesting happens to other characters not being fully serviced now. Whatever. Setups and transitions are out - go from big moment to big moment. Easy for me to say, I know.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 18:03:08 GMT
You can't have scenes that are there just to set up other scenes - there's no room for that. The show will sag and your act one finale will be undermined. Sounds like you need to rethink the story, perhaps complicate it so that something interesting happens to other characters not being fully serviced now. Whatever. Setups and transitions are out - go from big moment to big moment. Easy for me to say, I know. Yeah, I'll try my best. This is without a doubt the hardest thing I've ever done |
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Post by MusicalTalk on Apr 29, 2016 18:11:04 GMT
Jesus Christ Superstar contains one of the best known love songs of all time: I don't know how to love him... Yeah. Mendelssohn wrote such a lovely tune for that. I think it's many things: Commercial Success1) Sociocultural attitudes at the time 2) A star in the show 3) A star having written the show (doesn't mean the score has to be good - Kinky Boots) 4) Material people are familiar with Artistic SuccessWho knows - or everyone would write a hit! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 19:21:08 GMT
Jesus Christ Superstar contains one of the best known love songs of all time: I don't know how to love him... Yeah. Mendelssohn wrote such a lovely tune for that. I think it's many things: Commercial Success1) Sociocultural attitudes at the time 2) A star in the show 3) A star having written the show (doesn't mean the score has to be good - Kinky Boots) 4) Material people are familiar with Artistic SuccessWho knows - or everyone would write a hit! Oooh, get you! Could you point me in the right direction...?  |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Apr 30, 2016 12:17:34 GMT
Yeah. Mendelssohn wrote such a lovely tune for that.
I think it's many things: Commercial Success1) Sociocultural attitudes at the time 2) A star in the show 3) A star having written the show (doesn't mean the score has to be good - Kinky Boots) 4) Material people are familiar with Artistic SuccessWho knows - or everyone would write a hit! Mendelssohn's violin concerto of course. Tut tut surprised you don't know this! |
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Post by kathryn on Apr 30, 2016 13:06:09 GMT
If it was possible to actually pin down what makes a great musical, we'd have a lot more of them!
The real answer is no-one knows - but we know it when we see it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 13:39:13 GMT
If it was possible to actually pin down what makes a great musical, we'd have a lot more of them! The real answer is no-one knows - but we know it when we see it. True. They tried to pin it down using computers for "Beyond the Fence". I haven't seen it, but many people said that it was good, but it felt a bit too streamlined. I'm also in this facebook group where the composer for that show said that the computer was actually more of a hindrance than a help. So I don't think there's a real fixed formula for a great musical other than making sure you have a strong book and score. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 15:45:05 GMT
Oooh, get you! Could you point me in the right direction...? Mendelssohn's violin concerto of course. Tut tut surprised you don't know this! There is no depth to my shame...  The bloody thing on Youtube is twenty seven minutes long. TWENTY SEVEN! I have not got twenty seven minutes to sit and listen to someone bowing the life out of a violin looking sad. Please elighten me, giving me a rough idea (to the nearest minute will do) of where I should fast forward to. For this, I will be forever in your debt.  |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Apr 30, 2016 15:51:44 GMT
Mendelssohn's violin concerto of course. Tut tut surprised you don't know this! There is no depth to my shame... The bloody thing on Youtube is twenty seven minutes long. TWENTY SEVEN! I have not got twenty seven minutes to sit and listen to someone bowing the life out of a violin looking sad. Please elighten me, giving me a rough idea (to the nearest minute will do) of where I should fast forward to. For this, I will be forever in your debt. No need to sit through all that proper music, just have a look at this. Of of course this isn't where I git the answer from, I knew it from being proper clever like. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 16:08:33 GMT
There is no depth to my shame... The bloody thing on Youtube is twenty seven minutes long. TWENTY SEVEN! I have not got twenty seven minutes to sit and listen to someone bowing the life out of a violin looking sad. Please elighten me, giving me a rough idea (to the nearest minute will do) of where I should fast forward to. For this, I will be forever in your debt. No need to sit through all that proper music, just have a look at this. Of of course this isn't where I git the answer from, I knew it from being proper clever like. I'm with Carlotta on this one- "His way is better! At least he makes it sound like music!" Thank you, Burly. You are a star in my eyes.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 17:24:13 GMT
The lead surely has to go through some sort of rough treatment initially, for one reason or another. Usually for a reason out of their control.
- Elphaba, skin colour
- Simba, next in line to the throne
- Billy Elliot, passion for dance
- Celie, just being her!
- Fanny Brice, not a conventional beauty & having a rotten husband
- Mrs Johnston, having too many bubs and not being Marilyn Monroe!
There are only seven basic plots after all.
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It probably will help a lot to fill the void. It's always great to have some good old-fashioned entertainment right before moving on to a big dramatic moment
