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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2019 17:12:33 GMT
I think there's zero chance of Cameron doing a live broadcast, I suspect he would rather the general public not notice they are changing the show. That's true. I never thought about that, not wanting to draw too much attention to the change. |
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Post by indis on Jan 13, 2019 17:24:01 GMT
Geronimo Rauch - JVJ
Tam Mutu - Javert
Anton Zetterholm - Enjolras
Rob Houchen - Marius
Eva Noblezada - Eponine
Ruthie Henshall - Fantine
Zoe Doano - Cosette
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2019 18:29:59 GMT
Zoe Doano would be more of a Fantine now I think.
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Post by jgblunners on Jan 13, 2019 18:37:18 GMT
I’ve always wanted to see JOJ as Valjean, and while she’s never played the role before I firmly believe that Louise Dearman would be a phenomenal Fantine.
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Post by zak97 on Jan 13, 2019 18:38:50 GMT
I’ve always wanted to see JOJ as Valjean, and while she’s never played the role before I firmly believe that Louise Dearman would be a phenomenal Fantine. Personally I see her more as Mme T, she would be great for the comedy. |
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Post by 49thand8th on Jan 15, 2019 15:45:47 GMT
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Post by indis on Jan 15, 2019 16:38:15 GMT
don't care what colour she is, visited the show to see how she sings it and found it good, but nothing more. very unexciting, but
that could have happened with any other Cosette as well
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Post by Dave25 on Jan 16, 2019 0:04:48 GMT
I think especially the left wing race focused color counters see a black Cosette. I see a Cosette. Look at the black girl playing Glinda on Broadway or the black guy playing Evan Hansen and the reactions on that. Every thread is only about their color. "Black power", "Black victory", "Black Glinda", History, etc. As long as that is the focus of those threads and not the person, the voice, the talent, there will never be equality. I notice this race focus coming from the left takes on extreme forms. |
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Post by 49thand8th on Jan 16, 2019 0:08:57 GMT
I peeked and then just remembered why I muted you!
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Post by martello736 on Jan 16, 2019 0:30:11 GMT
It DOES matter that she’s a black Cosette though, because in over 30 years of Les Mis in the West End, there’s never been one before. Having a black actress in a role that’s always been played by a white woman, IS significant, and there’s no amount of semantic hand waving that can change that.
I’ve seen a few of you do your impassioned speeches about how if we stop acknowledging people’s gender / race / sexuality / disabilities then all of the world’s problems will evaporate and that the central issue in society isn’t sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia or ableism, but that we encourage marginalised groups to take pride in their identity and the progress being made in society. If you look at that situation and think the response to racism is a bigger issue than the racism itself then I don’t know what to tell you because you’re evidently so determined to miss the problem that you never wanted to solve it in the first place. Refusing to talk about the issue doesn’t make it go away, it just makes you feel a bit more comfortable while you’re complicit in ignoring it. We should be shouting it from the rooftops that finally, there is a black Cosette and celebrating what a momentous victory this is for representation - whilst acknowledging how long it took to get here and how much more we have to do.
I spend my days longing for the trans representation in theatre that I never had when I was a teenager, because I know that somewhere in the next generation there’ll be a kid like me that’d feel a little less alone as a result of seeing someone like them up there on that stage. I hope there’s a little Amara out there too somewhere who feels that bit more empowered as a result of seeing someone that looks like her play Cosette, or Eponine (Karis), or Glinda (Brittany), or any of the roles that for years and years were only played by people who looked a specific way.
I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to do your job when a portion of the audience are against you from the get go because of your arbitrary characteristics. Amara is incredible, and I’m sure she will go on to have a long and successful career. The first ever Black Cosette is doing amazingly, let’s hope there are many more to come.
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Post by danb on Jan 16, 2019 6:56:49 GMT
Aside from the ideological matters of race and colour being used in Les Mis, I really did not enjoy the ‘soul girl’ Eponine on the 25th recording/tour. Apologies as I cannot remember her name but it was totally at odds with the rest of the show. It called to mind J*hn P*rtridges similarly misplaced ‘Bui Doi’ on the first ‘Miss Saigon’ tour. Him gurning away like Barry White to a backdrop of pictures of displaced and orphaned children was beyond tasteless and sounded awful.
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Post by Dave25 on Jan 16, 2019 12:04:32 GMT
I am on her side and always on the side of equality. And that is exactly the mindset of the casting directors, the production, the actress and myself here. This is the right direction.
What does worry me slightly is the reaction of the audience and some posters here. We need to realize that there is a difference between being happy with progress and victimization of a group of people. Let me explain this. It seems that we all mean well and we all think our standpoints are good. But fact is that nearly all posts from the left wing are only about her color. Not about the actress or talent. The actress herself says she is not pleased with this. In every other Cosette, Evan, Glinda, etc, casting, reactions are about that, the performer, with, many, many traits. Why not here? Why only on this trait? I have difficulties with this, because the word race is never above the word equal to me. To me the people who do this are not treating her as equal. And this is not nitpicking of me, this race focus is the complete basis of inequality. When the black Glinda came on, people say "the entrance applause was EVERYTHING and out of this world". There is a fine line between sympathy and talent judgement. But ok, I can understand that there's some enthusiasm here, but whether you like it or not, it is very much based on a race focus, and it directly shows the focus of the particular audience, because would they clap less loud for another race? Should we treat any performer differently based on race? Whether you like it or not, it is racial separation, again, the core of the problem. In the end, nobody would really want to go down this road. Another poster said "I'm not that girl reprise" was particularly touching. I have never read this about any other Glinda, because usually every other aspect, (which is 99% of the role) is discussed or praised, which is also very interesting. It is the one moment where the role asks for sympathy (it is written that way), so it is interesting that this moment is mentioned. In my opinion, and I have tried to explain this for years, it is wrong if a show changes intention because of a race focus in a show where it doesn't even matter! This has nothing to do with the show or the actress, this has all to do with the focus of the audience. And that's where the key factor comes in again, do we focus on race difference, or can we see people. Because only then the road to equality will start. Are audiences ready for equal treatment? Right now this girl is treated as some kind of alien, not by the production, casting team, herself or me, but by audiences. We need to ask ourselves what true equality is. And be very careful that we don't widen the race gap by all this extreme race focus but focus on all the progress made in the last few years. Basically, I think it is better that in today's climate our children (our future) learn that a black president, a black talkshow host, black artists leading the popcharts, black characters in every tv show, movie, musical out there is the most normal thing on earth. It actually always was to me. Until I see thread titles like this: "Black Power"!!! I mean, was nothing learned from history? I am really curious, and hope some posters can answer this, have you ever thought of the idea that we have the choice of treating things normally and what the results of that will be in the long run? Aside from the good intentions we all think we have.
I also truly hope this girl finds fulfillment in the fact that she is just good in the role and doesn't feel like she just gets sympathy or feels victimized based on certain peculiar reactions, out of sympathy, so to speak. It is a very interesting reaction.
Martello736, I see your point but I disagree. There is nothing wrong with celebrating that, and I am not saying we should not see or acknowledge race. But it should be normalized. And it is our choice how we treat that. These excessive reactions from audiences and this extreme race focus make my little nephew ask "Uncle, what is wrong with black people? Why are they not normal"? And then I have to explain to him that they are normal. Without these reactions he wouldn't even ask himself this question. All we learn at home is to think in people. Black people have achieved everything there is to achieve in the world and are everywhere, in every thinkable position, function and talent. The roles of Glinda and Cosette are basically the last roles in the world that just not happened to have a person of color yet. The very last remainder. In many other roles and companies the percentage of poc is much higher than the actual population, especially in tv and film there is a huge overrepresentation (to an absurd level) but both examples should not matter anymore. When do you think there will be a point when these campaigners will experience a complete turnaround and start treating people as equals and there will be some kind of contentment? Because honestly, I'm waiting for it. Because that turnaround is the beginning of equality.
So I think we are really running out of victories, poc can be found in everything, so there comes a point when insisting that one race is inferior is no longer appropriate. Which forces a change in mindset, which is a good thing.
There's a kind of "dog chasing its tail" situation when it comes to trying to demonstrate the progress made toward equal opportunity. Recognizing and acknowledging the talents of the actor vs the color of their skin is a very positive, forward-moving perspective in terms of eliminating racial bias. On the other hand, people want and need to see their likenesses equally represented. The vicious circle happens because there are two ideals in play: one of equal opportunity and one of representation. Unfortunately, the two ideals cancel each other out. To demonstrate equality or an absence of bias, you have to eliminate race and see people as individuals; by their talents and skills only. But then (after equality is demonstrated) acknowledging the representation deletes the absence of bias because there's a celebration based on skin color/ethnic background/gender/minority group, etc...
In another thread someone mentioned that it really is not necessary to have a black girl play, for example Elle Woods in Legally Blonde. If we teach our children that poc are victims, or need more sympathy, what is happening right now in society, it is safe to say that we create a generation that is more unlikely to see a black girl as equal or believable in a role as someone "priviledged". Maybe in 30 years this has changed when we stopped teaching our children that, but I sometimes feel that in today's climate audiences aren't ready yet, seeing the reactions to this casting for example. Also, in the basis there is nothing wrong with casting in a way that is most recognizable for the majority of society. We can't try to teach our children one thing and the expect them to understand the opposite in casting. Also, color counting in general is quite toxic, both ways. Any scenario should be possible, not every project has to include everything. Is it really only a victory when every role in existence is played by every race? I hope in the future we have situations that not every race is included in everything, because it simply should not matter. That's a victory. I think this essential change in mindset will break this vicious circle.
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Post by wickedgrin on Jan 16, 2019 12:42:59 GMT
An article in The Stage today by Matthew Hemsey (behind a paywall) saying that the RSC begins crucial talks with Cam Mack over Les Mis royalties for the new production.
It is stated that since 1985 the RSC has earned 25million do date from Les Mis.
Trevor Nunn in 2010 said to The Telegraph that he had not been asked to work on the new production "we knew nothing about it, we were kept in the dark". Adding that the later production was a "variant production that owes everything that's good about it to the original production".
Frances Ruffelle (Eponine in the original production) has tweeted that Les Mis was successful not just because of the story and the music but "mainly because of the incredible direction by John Caird and Trevor Nunn. Their staging on the revolve was staggeringly beautiful. It took my breath away every time. Nothing else compares".
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Post by princeton on Jan 16, 2019 12:43:17 GMT
Oh wow, the costume design for the new production really is almost identical to the original isn't it? In fairness - costume design is the one element where the new production credits the original - with both Andreane Neofitou and Christine Rowland billed as costume designer. |
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Post by martello736 on Jan 16, 2019 17:41:06 GMT
Just to clarify, I meant that it matters that Amara is a Black Cosette in the context of people on this board trying to sweep it under the rug and claiming it's not something anyone should acknowledge, rather than in the context of Amara wanting to be treated with the same respect her predecessors received through being white. But I'm guessing most people were aware of that. Dave25, I will reply to your post when I get the chance. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 18:20:00 GMT
I don't normally agree with Dave25 but I have to say some posts from people in the industry and fans about the Broadway glinda were starting to come across as quite patronising and belittling. Theres a fine line between celebrating diversity and patronising and victimising someone
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Post by Dawnstar on Jan 16, 2019 20:22:17 GMT
Aside from the ideological matters of race and colour being used in Les Mis, I really did not enjoy the ‘soul girl’ Eponine on the 25th recording/tour. Apologies as I cannot remember her name but it was totally at odds with the rest of the show. It called to mind J*hn P*rtridges similarly misplaced ‘Bui Doi’ on the first ‘Miss Saigon’ tour. Him gurning away like Barry White to a backdrop of pictures of displaced and orphaned children was beyond tasteless and sounded awful. Rosalind James. I can't say that her take on Eponine was to my taste either.
I think it's a shame that Amara Okereke is upset about being disliked by audiecce members for being black when one of her tweets, previous to the one quoted upthread, indicates that she doesn't actually know if it is due to her race or not. Maybe the audience members who were unenthusiastic at her curtain call just weren't keen on her singing or acting choices?
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Post by indis on Jan 16, 2019 20:59:12 GMT
true, does anyone know what really happened or the audience members she pointed out did? was there a boo-ing or something like that?
i had no problem with her looks, but did not like her singing very much , acting was ok
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Post by wickedgrin on Jan 16, 2019 21:15:16 GMT
Maybe they just had a train to catch?
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Post by Dave25 on Jan 17, 2019 1:21:48 GMT
Aside from the ideological matters of race and colour being used in Les Mis, I really did not enjoy the ‘soul girl’ Eponine on the 25th recording/tour. Apologies as I cannot remember her name but it was totally at odds with the rest of the show. It called to mind J*hn P*rtridges similarly misplaced ‘Bui Doi’ on the first ‘Miss Saigon’ tour. Him gurning away like Barry White to a backdrop of pictures of displaced and orphaned children was beyond tasteless and sounded awful. Rosalind James. I can't say that her take on Eponine was to my taste either.
I think it's a shame that Amara Okereke is upset about being disliked by audiecce members for being black when one of her tweets, previous to the one quoted upthread, indicates that she doesn't actually know if it is due to her race or not. Maybe the audience members who were unenthusiastic at her curtain call just weren't keen on her singing or acting choices?
This is another interesting topic as well. I am always objective but it seems that some people really can't look past race or are genuinely confused if someone suggest a situation is about anything else than race. I always try to look at the origin of things, and it might be the way they are raised or have never learned to deal with any situation or discussion with other arguments than color. This girl playing Cosette seems confused too. People surrounding her probably involve color in every comment, discussion, subject or praise since she was a child. So when she meets real audiences she might be confused? It's the toxic left wing race focus I described earlier. I haven't seen or heard this Cosette, but I really disliked Rosalind James, based on her voice. It was a total miscast to me. I love Brittney Johnson as Glinda, her voice is outstanding. |
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Post by danb on Jan 17, 2019 6:58:25 GMT
Rosalind James. I can't say that her take on Eponine was to my taste either.
I think it's a shame that Amara Okereke is upset about being disliked by audiecce members for being black when one of her tweets, previous to the one quoted upthread, indicates that she doesn't actually know if it is due to her race or not. Maybe the audience members who were unenthusiastic at her curtain call just weren't keen on her singing or acting choices?
This is another interesting topic as well. I am always objective but it seems that some people really can't look past race or are genuinely confused if someone suggest a situation is about anything else than race. I always try to look at the origin of things, and it might be the way they are raised or have never learned to deal with any situation or discussion with other arguments than color. This girl playing Cosette seems confused too. People surrounding her probably involve color in every comment, discussion, subject or praise since she was a child. So when she meets real audiences she might be confused? It's the toxic left wing race focus I described earlier. I haven't seen or heard this Cosette, but I really disliked Rosalind James, based on her voice. It was a total miscast to me. I love Brittney Johnson as Glinda, her voice is outstanding. Exactly Dave. The score had managed quite well for 25 years without anyone saying that ‘On My Own’ needed to sound like an anguished Whitney album track...a random decision. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 17:27:00 GMT
In the minority but I loved Rosalind James. Yes she riffed a bit (to the purists maybe sounded like a lot). But she could (and did) hit neat direct musical theatre notes too. I thought her style had a good mix of MT and "Whitney."
Unusual as normally I like pure MT singing and any hint of X Factor makes my blood boil.
But her Eponine worked for me. Also thought she was a great actress and I really felt Eponine's pain.
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Post by ali973 on Jan 18, 2019 8:22:01 GMT
I also liked her. I don't mind a riffing Eponine, so long as it's controlled by the musical director. Remember guys that this is a pop score, a rock opera for all intents and purposes and not a classical opera.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jan 18, 2019 8:47:32 GMT
Lulu was criticised for her rock/blues style when playing Dorothy Brock because it sounded incongruous and wrong. Similarly there’s no place for showy riffing in Les Mis. WTF are they doing to this production? Kids straight out of stage school being given principal roles, baby faced Javerts, Whitneyesque riffing and now the bloody revolve is out of the show. It’s all going to Hell in a handcart!
#donttellpatti
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 18:56:45 GMT
I also liked her. I don't mind a riffing Eponine, so long as it's controlled by the musical director. Remember guys that this is a pop score, a rock opera for all intents and purposes and not a classical opera. Indeed - so long as it's controlled I think it's ok. In stark contrast to Hugh Maynard's Bui Doi, which was COMPLETELY out of control. Ryan O'Gorman so much better.... |
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