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Post by talkstageytome on Oct 2, 2018 6:38:30 GMT
The problem being that she is fair skinned and blonde - a noticeably pale white lady. Cosette, introduced as a little girl, was a pale skinned white child with light hair. Cosette as an adult? A black lady. I find it an insult to the integrity of the piece, the intelligence of the audience and the legacy of the show that such a horribly misaimed piece of diverse casting has taken place. I know this has been discussed here before and I personally really really really don't think it matters, but even so calling it an 'insult to the integrity of the piece, the intelligence of the audience and the legacy of the show' and 'a horribly aimed piece of diverse casting' seems like a very strong reaction for what is, in my eyes, a totally normal and very common casting decision which Les Mis has been doing for years in productions around the world. Amara Okereke is a lovely performer who sings and acts the role very well as far as I've heard (I've not seen her in the show but friends have, and I saw her in the Sondheim Student Performer of the Year Awards). We're told very clearly a couple of times who characters are in relation to eachother, e.g. that Cosette is adopted by Val Jean, and Fantine is her mother, bio dad unknown. It's not hard to keep track, I don't think. As you know the show so well, even less so. Anyway, that's just my two cents. I've definitely heard a lot of people commenting on the youth of the cast recently too, and that's something I've also noticed. It's nice to have loads of grads in there, giving them a great job out of drama school and shaking up the production with new blood, but it'd be nice to have more of a range of ages. An ensemble comprised almost entirely of 21 year olds in very noticeable. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 7:31:28 GMT
The young cast is what makes this show a great debut for kids just out of drama school.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Oct 2, 2018 7:39:50 GMT
They’re not charging “just out of drama school” prices though are they.
I think audiences are entitled to expect experienced actors up on stage when they book an expensive West End show. Yes everyone has to get a foot on the ladder but if the majority of the cast are that age it makes a mockery of it.
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Post by daisy24601 on Oct 2, 2018 10:07:52 GMT
Les Miserables shouldn't really be an out of drama school job. It's top of the game. Especially on the main roles. I haven't seen Bradley Jaden as Javert but I agree he is far too young. Someone like Nic Greenshields on the tour is much more apt casting.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 10:35:36 GMT
I saw Bradley in Wicked and he did seem to shout a lot to try and make his voice sound more powerful. I assume it’s the same in Mis?
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Post by SageStageMgr on Oct 2, 2018 11:47:49 GMT
The problem being that she is fair skinned and blonde - a noticeably pale white lady. Cosette, introduced as a little girl, was a pale skinned white child with light hair. Cosette as an adult? A black lady. I find it an insult to the integrity of the piece, the intelligence of the audience and the legacy of the show that such a horribly misaimed piece of diverse casting has taken place. I know this has been discussed here before and I personally really really really don't think it matters, but even so calling it an 'insult to the integrity of the piece, the intelligence of the audience and the legacy of the show' and 'a horribly aimed piece of diverse casting' seems like a very strong reaction for what is, in my eyes, a totally normal and very common casting decision which Les Mis has been doing for years in productions around the world. Amara Okereke is a lovely performer who sings and acts the role very well as far as I've heard (I've not seen her in the show but friends have, and I saw her in the Sondheim Student Performer of the Year Awards). We're told very clearly a couple of times who characters are in relation to eachother, e.g. that Cosette is adopted by Val Jean, and Fantine is her mother, bio dad unknown. It's not hard to keep track, I don't think. As you know the show so well, even less so. Anyway, that's just my two cents. I've definitely heard a lot of people commenting on the youth of the cast recently too, and that's something I've also noticed. It's nice to have loads of grads in there, giving them a great job out of drama school and shaking up the production with new blood, but it'd be nice to have more of a range of ages. An ensemble comprised almost entirely of 21 year olds in very noticeable. I very much respect your opinions on this forum, but we’ll have to agree to disagree here. I think such blasé casting is endemic of the production’s woes and should never happen. And I really want to reiterate that my issue isn’t the race of the character, it is the ridiculousness of the change in appearance from being an 8 year old to an 18 year old. In Chitty, Gary Wilmot was regularly the father of two blonde children. No problem. The show is about a magical flying car. But Les Mis? As I say, I believe it hurts the integrity of the show. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 11:52:44 GMT
I know this has been discussed here before and I personally really really really don't think it matters, but even so calling it an 'insult to the integrity of the piece, the intelligence of the audience and the legacy of the show' and 'a horribly aimed piece of diverse casting' seems like a very strong reaction for what is, in my eyes, a totally normal and very common casting decision which Les Mis has been doing for years in productions around the world. Amara Okereke is a lovely performer who sings and acts the role very well as far as I've heard (I've not seen her in the show but friends have, and I saw her in the Sondheim Student Performer of the Year Awards). We're told very clearly a couple of times who characters are in relation to eachother, e.g. that Cosette is adopted by Val Jean, and Fantine is her mother, bio dad unknown. It's not hard to keep track, I don't think. As you know the show so well, even less so. Anyway, that's just my two cents. I've definitely heard a lot of people commenting on the youth of the cast recently too, and that's something I've also noticed. It's nice to have loads of grads in there, giving them a great job out of drama school and shaking up the production with new blood, but it'd be nice to have more of a range of ages. An ensemble comprised almost entirely of 21 year olds in very noticeable. ...And I really want to reiterate that my issue isn’t the race of the character, it is the ridiculousness of the change in appearance from being an 8 year old to an 18 year old....  1992 |
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Post by SageStageMgr on Oct 2, 2018 11:53:35 GMT
Les Miserables shouldn't really be an out of drama school job. It's top of the game. Especially on the main roles. I haven't seen Bradley Jaden as Javert but I agree he is far too young. Someone like Nic Greenshields on the tour is much more apt casting. This, a billion times. The show used to have the creme de la creme throughout the ensemble, never mind experienced leads. Nic Greenshields is a hugely underrated performer. Saw him as UNDERSTUDY Javert, he is about 6’3” with a booming baritone, stage presence and was old enough even back then for the role. And he was only the cover. He was also a brilliant Phantom circa 2010 too. |
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Post by 49thand8th on Oct 2, 2018 14:09:00 GMT
The problem being that she is fair skinned and blonde - a noticeably pale white lady. Cosette, introduced as a little girl, was a pale skinned white child with light hair. Cosette as an adult? A black lady. I find it an insult to the integrity of the piece, the intelligence of the audience and the legacy of the show that such a horribly misaimed piece of diverse casting has taken place. I can't believe this is even a thing to anyone anymore. The first time the ethnicities of the kids vs adults/teens didn't "match" was probably back when Natalie Toro was playing Eponine in the '80s. Nothing collapsed then and it's not now. |
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Post by theatremadness on Oct 2, 2018 15:22:48 GMT
I think I've said it on this thread before, but young casts = cheaper to pay.
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Post by indis on Oct 2, 2018 15:50:28 GMT
it gets confusing, especially for people seeing it for the first time when they change a characters race while groing up. Would not mind Cosette being black , but would prefer to have a small black Cosette then too
apart from that, the first cast Cosette did nothing for me, the Cosettes i had the years ago all had stronger voices, the current one did not really get the high notes
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 15:58:35 GMT
It's hard to argue the cast of 'artistic integrity' for a mega musical production where the producers openly consider it a 'machine'.
Les Mis, like many others, have become victims of business.
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Post by SageStageMgr on Oct 2, 2018 16:18:40 GMT
It's hard to argue the cast of 'artistic integrity' for a mega musical production where the producers openly consider it a 'machine'. Les Mis, like many others, have become victims of business. I hear what you’re saying. But I believe it DOES adversely effect the quality of the show having such a uniformly young (and inexperienced) cast, especially those elevated to lead roles written for older performers. Having a main character change skin colour half way through the show without explanation is an inexplicable decision in what is meant to be a “serious” piece. If nothing else, it causes an unnecessary distraction and feels like liberties are being taken with the piece and with the paying audience. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 16:26:51 GMT
It's hard to argue the cast of 'artistic integrity' for a mega musical production where the producers openly consider it a 'machine'. Les Mis, like many others, have become victims of business. I hear what you’re saying. But I believe it DOES adversely effect the quality of the show having such a uniformly young (and inexperienced) cast, especially those elevated to lead roles written for older performers. Having a main character change skin colour half way through the show without explanation is an inexplicable decision in what is meant to be a “serious” piece. If nothing else, it causes an unnecessary distraction and feels like liberties are being taken with the piece and with the paying audience. Absolutely agree. Especially with regard to the casting of inexperienced, fresh out of college faces. For a musical of this size and reputation they should have some prestige about them and not be casting based on budget. I do wonder how far it will all go before numbers drop, but currently producers are happy to take these liberties as tickets remain to sell in abundance. |
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Post by SageStageMgr on Oct 2, 2018 16:44:28 GMT
I hear what you’re saying. But I believe it DOES adversely effect the quality of the show having such a uniformly young (and inexperienced) cast, especially those elevated to lead roles written for older performers. Having a main character change skin colour half way through the show without explanation is an inexplicable decision in what is meant to be a “serious” piece. If nothing else, it causes an unnecessary distraction and feels like liberties are being taken with the piece and with the paying audience. Absolutely agree. Especially with regard to the casting of inexperienced, fresh out of college faces. For a musical of this size and reputation they should have some prestige about them and not be casting based on budget. I do wonder how far it will all go before numbers drop, but currently producers are happy to take these liberties as tickets remain to sell in abundance. It’s cyclical. A producer friend was talking to me about this with regards to panto. Most of a theatre’s house each show is booked many months in advance by audience members. Say a “badly received” show sells very well in 2018, but the audience don’t like it - they simply won’t come back next year. They’ll see something else. Then the show in 2019 is much better received critically, but your core audience haven’t booked. So your “better” show goes unseen. Essentially this is, in my opinion, how these long runners work. There isn’t a “downswing” until the prebooking market is exhausted for that cycle. Packed houses every night to see Peter Andre as Valjean, with half the cast forgetting their lines and only two lights working. (I exaggerate) A year or two later, that audience cycle plans their theatre. No way they’re seeing Les Mis again! Les Mis box office advance takes a huge dive and suddenly it’s at TKTS every day and offers galore. The producers realise they’ve messed up and reboot the show with a quality cast and new resident creatives. This brilliant new cast is paying for the previous years’ weakness. Steadily people start to rave about it again and people go back. Then that cast changes and the cycle repeats. I believe with long running musicals like LM, it’s a slow deterioration of standards over time which gets it to this point. |
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Post by 49thand8th on Oct 2, 2018 20:18:13 GMT
it gets confusing, especially for people seeing it for the first time when they change a characters race while groing up. Would not mind Cosette being black , but would prefer to have a small black Cosette then too It's a matter of practicality. Do you switch out every time there's an understudy on? If one has to leave the job for any reason, do you fire the other one? (And in the US, where the girls switch off evenly, do you keep one only as Young Cosette and only as Young Eponine so the ethnicities match?) I think people can adapt. Clearly the spell hasn't been broken for enough audience members over the past decades, so they're going to keep casting this way. |
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Post by princeton on Oct 2, 2018 23:08:01 GMT
It's a show that has been running for 33 years - and there have been, throughout this time, many cast members who are perhaps less ideally suited to their roles than their predecessors or indeed successors.
I don't think any casting issues are as simple as the actors being much younger that they had been in the past. Michael Ball was one year out of drama school when he played Marius and Frances Ruffelle was 20 when she created Eponine, yet both actually older than the characters they were playing. As for the current Javert being 20 years too young, I believe he's 30 which is the same age as Philip Quast was when he played the role, and only two years younger than Roger Allam in the original cast. John Owen Jones was 26 when he first played Valjean - and his performance is talked about, quite rightly, in the most revered tones. I haven't seen the current cast so am not passing judgement on suitability for roles - just making the point that it can't be put down to age alone.
I can't claim to have seen it nearly as many times as some on this board, nor do I share in the complete adoration for the piece, but I've probably watched it about 15 or so times across 33 years - from the very long version at the Barbican to a couple of years ago at the Queens. I remember thinking that the Original Broadway company was a pale facsimile of the original London cast - played broadly without any subtlety or nuance - and with a Marius and Cosette who were less young lovers and more middle aged couple (I was 23 at the time and, unlike Ball and Rebecca Caine, they seemed so much older than me). I saw it a few years into the run at the Palace (with most lead roles being onto their second or third change) and thought it had become sloppy and self-indulgent with a Valjean and Javert who were both doing a lot of acting to show us how hard they were working but to very little emotional effect. It felt as though it was on its last legs. A couple of years later it was back, fresh as a daisy. And we're not anywhere near the 10th anniversary yet.
In terms of drama school graduates - it does look as though this year's intake is pretty significant. I know that at the time of the aforementioned cull of 2005 - Cameron Mackintosh wanted lots of new blood and he felt that students should look like students - not west end old timers. So since then they've been holding auditions in most of the major drama schools on an annual basis specifically to get younger actors. CML would probably argue that this is for authenticity rather than economics - but who knows.
Finally, and I apologise for the length of this post, I agree with 49thand8th that audiences can adapt and accept theatrical artifice such as a morphing Cosette (even if they talk about it in the interval). There's an awful lot in the staging of Les Miserables which is non-natural and it doesn't seem to have impacted on the success of the show. I certainly don't think such a casting/directorial decision signals the death knell any more than the lacklustre Valjean/Javert combo I saw about 30 years ago.
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Post by showtoones on Oct 16, 2018 19:54:57 GMT
The woman playing Cosette happens to be black and they felt she was the best person for the role this time around. So why does having a a white young Cosette matter? In Billy Elliott, they had a black and Asian Bill with a white father. People survived and it didn't lead to the premature closure of the show.
While discussing race is worthwhile, I feel like there are overtones to this critique that aren't fair to the performer or the performance in general. Are you saying they should have a black young Cosette and then if Amara is out, make sure they put a white little Cosette on to match? As you know, that wouldn't happen.
Its called suspension of disbelief. In Joseph, some of the 12 bothers were black and Jacob was white. People didn't lose thew fact that they were still related in the show.
I know people hold this show very close to their hearts but people need to relax a bit and just enjoy the piece for what it is and the amazing message that we need more than ever right now.
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Post by SageStageMgr on Oct 17, 2018 11:40:22 GMT
The woman playing Cosette happens to be black and they felt she was the best person for the role this time around. So why does having a a white young Cosette matter? In Billy Elliott, they had a black and Asian Bill with a white father. People survived and it didn't lead to the premature closure of the show. While discussing race is worthwhile, I feel like there are overtones to this critique that aren't fair to the performer or the performance in general. Are you saying they should have a black young Cosette and then if Amara is out, make sure they put a white little Cosette on to match? As you know, that wouldn't happen. Its called suspension of disbelief. In Joseph, some of the 12 bothers were black and Jacob was white. People didn't lose thew fact that they were still related in the show. I know people hold this show very close to their hearts but people need to relax a bit and just enjoy the piece for what it is and the amazing message that we need more than ever right now. Once again: The reason is matters in this particular case is because the actress in question is portraying the SAME CHARACTER, in a plot central role, who a few scenes earlier had been a little girl of a different race. The actress who is supposed to be her maternal mother in the story also bears no resemblance whatsoever. In the context of the story, it makes absolutely no sense. I reiterate, for the third time now, that my issue isn't that she is a black Cosette, but rather that the casting of a black Cosette within this cast, in the context of the story, simply makes no sense. Zero. Please try to forget any preconceived ideas of my opinions of race or equality, and look at it in simple, non-partisan terms. The example you gave of Billy Elliott is near-identical to the one I gave about Gary Wilmot in Chitty, as I'm sure you know if you're replying to my posts on this matter. Just a reminder, in case you actually hadn't read my reasoning, this is absolutely fine as it in no way distracts or detracts from the telling of the story. What would be weird though, would be if half-way through the second Act the car changed into a pink minibus without any in-story explanation whatsoever. Incidentally, Billy Elliott is now closed. In its old theatre is a hugely successful and diversely casted show called Hamilton, about a bunch of dead white guys. It's a good show. Not historically accurate, but in French revolutionary times people didn't burst into song while fighting on the streets, so 'willing suspension of disbelief' is ALWAYS in play when visiting the theatre. Both tell a good story in their own style and both are phenomenally popular. Having re-read my original post (the review) I do feel I perhaps wasn't harsh enough as to how poor the performance was in general terms. The actress playing Cosette (I assume that's Amara? I'm not on first name terms with the cast there), was okay. Quite a good voice. Nothing special; out of the Cosettes I've seen, she'd be in the bottom third - by no means the worst. There were far less convincing performances elsewhere talent-wise. As for your Joseph point, once again, does it matter if the cast are made up of different races, heights, generations and so forth? Absolutely not. The story gets told just fine regardless. I appreciate people get very sensitive (squeamish almost) when anybody mentions anything to do with race. For the fourth time, unless critical to the plot ala Hairspray (a show explicitly about race issues), anybody could potentially play any part in my view - as long as they were talented and right for the part performance wise. What would really piss me off would be a completely random little white child playing Cosette for a song in an all-black cast, then nobody ever mentioning it again. It's taking liberties with the show and being incredibly self-indulgent. As I say, I don't think she was even anything special in this show. |
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Post by showtoones on Oct 17, 2018 16:14:23 GMT
The woman playing Cosette happens to be black and they felt she was the best person for the role this time around. So why does having a a white young Cosette matter? In Billy Elliott, they had a black and Asian Bill with a white father. People survived and it didn't lead to the premature closure of the show. While discussing race is worthwhile, I feel like there are overtones to this critique that aren't fair to the performer or the performance in general. Are you saying they should have a black young Cosette and then if Amara is out, make sure they put a white little Cosette on to match? As you know, that wouldn't happen. Its called suspension of disbelief. In Joseph, some of the 12 bothers were black and Jacob was white. People didn't lose thew fact that they were still related in the show. I know people hold this show very close to their hearts but people need to relax a bit and just enjoy the piece for what it is and the amazing message that we need more than ever right now. Once again: The reason is matters in this particular case is because the actress in question is portraying the SAME CHARACTER, in a plot central role, who a few scenes earlier had been a little girl of a different race. The actress who is supposed to be her maternal mother in the story also bears no resemblance whatsoever. In the context of the story, it makes absolutely no sense. I reiterate, for the third time now, that my issue isn't that she is a black Cosette, but rather that the casting of a black Cosette within this cast, in the context of the story, simply makes no sense. Zero. Please try to forget any preconceived ideas of my opinions of race or equality, and look at it in simple, non-partisan terms. The example you gave of Billy Elliott is near-identical to the one I gave about Gary Wilmot in Chitty, as I'm sure you know if you're replying to my posts on this matter. Just a reminder, in case you actually hadn't read my reasoning, this is absolutely fine as it in no way distracts or detracts from the telling of the story. What would be weird though, would be if half-way through the second Act the car changed into a pink minibus without any in-story explanation whatsoever. Incidentally, Billy Elliott is now closed. In its old theatre is a hugely successful and diversely casted show called Hamilton, about a bunch of dead white guys. It's a good show. Not historically accurate, but in French revolutionary times people didn't burst into song while fighting on the streets, so 'willing suspension of disbelief' is ALWAYS in play when visiting the theatre. Both tell a good story in their own style and both are phenomenally popular. Having re-read my original post (the review) I do feel I perhaps wasn't harsh enough as to how poor the performance was in general terms. The actress playing Cosette (I assume that's Amara? I'm not on first name terms with the cast there), was okay. Quite a good voice. Nothing special; out of the Cosettes I've seen, she'd be in the bottom third - by no means the worst. There were far less convincing performances elsewhere talent-wise. As for your Joseph point, once again, does it matter if the cast are made up of different races, heights, generations and so forth? Absolutely not. The story gets told just fine regardless. I appreciate people get very sensitive (squeamish almost) when anybody mentions anything to do with race. For the fourth time, unless critical to the plot ala Hairspray (a show explicitly about race issues), anybody could potentially play any part in my view - as long as they were talented and right for the part performance wise. What would really piss me off would be a completely random little white child playing Cosette for a song in an all-black cast, then nobody ever mentioning it again. It's taking liberties with the show and being incredibly self-indulgent. As I say, I don't think she was even anything special in this show. I certainly understand your point but I just don't agree with it. You keep making the same point over and over again (as you state, 3rd time or 4th time, though I don't feel the need for you to be condescending). In the past they have had black Eponines and the Thernadiers are white. They have had Asian Fantines and the Cosettes are white, etc. Instead of "looking out for people who have never seen the show before" take it for what it is. |
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Post by 49thand8th on Oct 17, 2018 16:35:36 GMT
It's also incredibly insulting that you feel the need to approach a new audience member as someone delicate who needs hand-holding.
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Post by martello736 on Oct 17, 2018 18:15:18 GMT
It's also incredibly insulting that you feel the need to approach a new audience member as someone delicate who needs hand-holding. Agreed. That being said, I've never made it all the way through a performance of Les Mis before because the notion that the people stood on stage are from the 19th Century has always been too ridiculous for me to comprehend. Everybody knows that it's 2018. I am also expected to believe that the stage is a prison, and inn and a barricade, as and when the "French people" tell me it is (did I mention they're French but sound British?), which is frankly insulting to my intelligence. And why, may I ask, am I told that this narrative takes place over several years when I know that I've only been sat in the theatre for a couple of hours? Not only that, they all seem to face forward the vast majority of the time. Why would they do that? I don't deliberately angle every conversation I have in the same direction. I'm as open minded as anybody but even I refuse to make these kinds of mental leaps. In comparison, the idea that a person could give birth to somebody with a very slightly different skin tone to them seems barely even noteworthy  |
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Post by 49thand8th on Oct 17, 2018 18:18:43 GMT
YEAH. Why doesn't Marius just GO AROUND the gate Rue Plumet, I say.
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Post by martello736 on Oct 17, 2018 18:28:12 GMT
YEAH. Why doesn't Marius just GO AROUND the gate Rue Plumet, I say. Exactly! And have you noticed that once a character walks off the stage nobody acknowledges they're still there any more? Why doesn't Jean Valjean just stand in the wings until Javert gets bored of not being able to find him? |
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Post by kimbahorel on Oct 17, 2018 18:58:00 GMT
It's not practical to have all of the kids at a show even if they did have a little black Cosette. All the little Eponines are understudies for little Cosettes as well. They can't just pick and choose a kid based on what the adult Cosette looks like. They most probably have a schedule of performances between the 3 little Cosettes. Eventually somewhere you are going to have an inconsistencies.
It's what someone posted a suspention of disbelief. Surely though at the core of everything if that is the thing in the show that people are taking the issue with - two different colour Cosettes. It really showing how petty people can be. Lets face it it's a fictional musical based on a fictional book with characters that aren't real. Nothing about the show has to in any way has to represent any sort of realism. For one thing they break out into a song evey few minutes.
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