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Post by tmesis on Oct 3, 2017 16:15:58 GMT
Fascinating as ever Tony. I've just thought of a reason why Guys and Dolls and My Fair Lady are both such perfect musicals; I think it's because they embody the Sondheim golden rule of 'less is more.' I think, and there are exceptions, musicals are most satisfying when they don't over-emote; leave that to the proper opera composers, who have the technical skill, and genius, to pull off the real emotional high. Even Rodgers and Hammerstein liked their 'purple patches' in their musicals (you could argue that Some Enchanted Evening is a bit OTT.) G&D and MFL always keep the emotions understated and they are much more moving and involving for that.
It's also interesting that virtually all the other great composer/lyricists turned down adapting Pygmalion as a musical because they couldn't find a way to make it work ( including the great R&H) but then L&L do it, and do it so (seemingly) effortlessly, that you wonder what the problem could be.
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 3, 2017 20:08:03 GMT
The NT production was good, I went twice and failed to see Martine on both occasions! Even better was John Wilson's Proms version which the BBC never televised! I remember hearing at the time that they couldn't get the rights to televise it, which I thought was a great pity. I think it's the only John Wilson Prom that hasn't been televised. Oh well, at least it was enjoyable in the hall. I also saw one of 2 concert performances he did of it up in Newcastle in 2009, which had some of the same cast members as the 2012 Prom. The most memorable moment was Roy Hudd, as Alfred Doolittle, dancing up & down the concert hall aisles during "I'm Getting Married In The Morning" with incredible energy for a septugenarian! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 21:06:25 GMT
On Guys and Dolls, I really enjoyed the 2005 London production, actually more than the original NT version, partly because I hated the NT orchestrations. The orchestra sounded fab in the 2005 version and I saw it several times from the front row of the stalls, partly because of cast changes but mainly just to enjoy the orchestra. I have mixed memories of the 2005 G&D. Ewan McGregor was a bit lacklustre, whilst Jane Krakowski was mesmeric (to this day one of the very best I've seen). The production dragged a bit in Havana, but elated as it should for Rockin the Boat. If memory serves, I got to see Cory English as Nathan for one performance. Didn't stand up too well when it lost the West End cast and went on tour. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 21:07:51 GMT
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Post by harrietcraig on Oct 4, 2017 1:00:15 GMT
The score for "Paint Your Wagon" certainly isn't on a par with the other great Lerner and Loewe musicals, but it includes a sweet, perky song called "How can I wait", which deserves to be better known. I know the song from a recording by Julie Andrews called "Broadway's Fair", which I have had for over 50 years (the liner notes say "Julie is presently enchanting us as Guenevere, the beautiful Queen in Camelot"). The cover of the LP -- which, by some miracle, I still have -- features a Richard Avedon photograph of an impossibly young-looking Julie.
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Post by tonyloco on Oct 4, 2017 21:17:43 GMT
The score for "Paint Your Wagon" certainly isn't on a par with the other great Lerner and Loewe musicals, but it includes a sweet, perky song called "How can I wait", which deserves to be better known. I know the song from a recording by Julie Andrews called "Broadway's Fair", which I have had for over 50 years (the liner notes say "Julie is presently enchanting us as Guenevere, the beautiful Queen in Camelot"). The cover of the LP -- which, by some miracle, I still have -- features a Richard Avedon photograph of an impossibly young-looking Julie. Thanks harrietcraig for that tip. I didn't know that song but the Julie Andrews recording is on YouTube and it is indeed charming. You are right that 'Paint Your Wagon' is not in the top flight of shows and according to Wiki it has had very few revivals, but 'I talk to the trees' was a big pop hit away from the show, certainly in Australia, and it was usually recognised when I played it in my tinkling days. But it was Spike Milligan's version that I liked best of all: 'I talk to the trees, That's why they put me away.' |
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Post by tonyloco on Oct 4, 2017 21:56:29 GMT
The NT production was good, I went twice and failed to see Martine on both occasions! Even better was John Wilson's Proms version which the BBC never televised! I remember hearing at the time that they couldn't get the rights to televise it, which I thought was a great pity. I think it's the only John Wilson Prom that hasn't been televised. Oh well, at least it was enjoyable in the hall. I also saw one of 2 concert performances he did of it up in Newcastle in 2009, which had some of the same cast members as the 2012 Prom. The most memorable moment was Roy Hudd, as Alfred Doolittle, dancing up & down the concert hall aisles during "I'm Getting Married In The Morning" with incredible energy for a septugenarian! Yes, Dawnstar, I heard a similar story about why the 'West Side Story' section was omitted from one of the John Wilson BBC concert broadcasts, namely because they could not clear the rights. It was however included in a subsequent rebroadcast of the whole concert, so I don't know whether that was true or not. Regarding your memory of seeing Roy Hudd playing Alfred Doolittle, I once played for Roy in a mini music hall tour with Hiss and Boo and if you look carefully at my current avatar you will see Roy with the rest of the company in Taunton. The tour finished with two performances at the Fairfield Hall, Croydon, and when I saw the size of the venue I was sure we would never fill it, but what I didn't know was that Roy is a local Croydon lad. The audience was hanging from the rafters both nights and it was a huge success. Roy was a pleasure to work with both as a performer and as a person: a very talented man. |
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Post by tonyloco on Oct 5, 2017 10:02:40 GMT
Fascinating as ever Tony. I've just thought of a reason why Guys and Dolls and My Fair Lady are both such perfect musicals; I think it's because they embody the Sondheim golden rule of 'less is more.' I think, and there are exceptions, musicals are most satisfying when they don't over-emote; leave that to the proper opera composers, who have the technical skill, and genius, to pull off the real emotional high. Even Rodgers and Hammerstein liked their 'purple patches' in their musicals (you could argue that Some Enchanted Evening is a bit OTT.) G&D and MFL always keep the emotions understated and they are much more moving and involving for that. It's also interesting that virtually all the other great composer/lyricists turned down adapting Pygmalion as a musical because they couldn't find a way to make it work ( including the great R&H) but then L&L do it, and do it so (seemingly) effortlessly, that you wonder what the problem could be. Your comments must surely lead to some fascinating speculation as to what makes a musical great but you are probably right in that understatement and simplicity are an important element, but there are of course exceptions. I suppose 'My Fair Lady' does have the advantage of being based on a brilliant play and, like you, I wonder why the other practitioners of the art of writing musicals all shied away from it. Anyway, L&L rose magnificently to the challenge and created a masterpiece. |
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Post by Mr Snow on Oct 7, 2017 8:10:41 GMT
Ok guys I’ve really enjoyed your observations, coming as they do from people who approach this with love rather than seeking to be be ‘critical’.
So your thoughts on Sondheim? For me I love the shows but struggle to love individual songs (pretty orthodox I know).
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Post by tmesis on Oct 7, 2017 10:00:49 GMT
Ok guys I’ve really enjoyed your observations, coming as they do from people who approach this with love rather than seeking to be be ‘critical’. So your thoughts on Sondheim? For me I love the shows but struggle to love individual songs (pretty orthodox I know). Well, first of all I'm a massive fan and I also don't buy the line that he's not very melodic, I think there are some great tunes in all his shows. Mainly though I'm in agreement that it's the shows I love rather than individual songs. But there are individual songs: There won't be trumpets (Dawn Upshaw) Everybody says don't (Streisand) Comedy Tonight Everybody ought to have a maid Getting married today The ladies who lunch Being Alive (almost anything from Company) I'm still hear Losing my mind Broadway baby (Stritch, obviously) Chrysanthemum Tea Pretty Lady Joanna Not while I'm around Finishing the Hat (Patinkin) Sunday You must meet my wife A weekend in the country Agony Into the Woods Old friends Not a day goes by Good thing going Our time (I just adore ALL the music to Merrily) Everyboby's got the Right Waste The best thing that ever has Happened. For a collection of great songs to enjoy it's a toss up between Company, Follies, Merrily or, surprisingly Pacific Overtures, I have all the CDs and probably play this the most. But I actually think my favourite is Merrily. I've (glaringly) omitted Send in the clowns. I much prefer to play that than hear it. It makes a really superb piano solo, almost like playing a Chopin Nocturne (with more 9th chords!) |
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Post by tonyloco on Oct 7, 2017 11:56:14 GMT
Thanks, tmesis for that great overview of Sondheim's songs. I have some big gaps in my knowledge of the shows, partly because I haven't seen some of them and partly because although I have seen them once I haven't had a cast album or needed to accompany anybody singing the songs. Oddly, there are some shows that my brain says I don't want to see (not just Sondheim) and into this category come 'A Little Night Music' and 'Merrily We Roll Along'. I know I am eccentric, but who isn't? But I have seen 'Pacific Overtures', 'Sunday in the Park with George', 'Assassins' and 'The Frogs' as well as the others in the canon like 'Sweeney Todd', 'A Funny Thing' and 'Follies'.
Of the Sondheim songs that I do know, some of them fall into the category of songs that have given me huge pleasure to perform. In the days when I played for the Aba Daba Music Hall Company at the old Pindar of Wakefield at King's Cross, we did a number of Sondheim songs and I always found them highly effective. I have said before that one of the songs that I got enormous pleasure out of performing was 'I'm still here'. We had a rather powerful Australian actress called Davilia David and she and I used to really tear up the boards doing 'I'm still here' which we performed in a number of bills and always with spectacular success. Also at the Pindar I did 'Broadway Baby' with another Aussie actress called Elaine Holland, and I loved playing the little fill-in bits between the vocal phrases. Each show at the Pindar always ended with a 'scena' being a medley of five or six songs on a particular topic, like the Farmyard Scene and the Train Scena, which were performed by all five or six members of the company. The Friendship Scena included 'Side by Side' and the 'Opening of Openings' Scena included 'Comedy Tonight', again both songs were a pleasure to perform for the actors and for me. I will change my avatar for a while to show me taking my bow at the end of the Farmyard Scena.
Elsewhere, one of the regular performers in other music hall companies was the brilliant Julia Sutton, who was in the ensemble in a number of West End musicals including 'Mary Poppins' at the Prince Edward in which she sang 'Feed the Birds'. Julia sometimes did 'Losing my mind' and it was always a rather intense experience for both of us, but she kept it as a deeply felt song rather than a melodrama as Imelda does it at the NT – to my disapproval.
I think I may have played for 'Send in the Clowns' once or twice at Stratford East but it has never impressed me, perhaps because I have never seen the show. And I think I also played 'Old Friends' at Stratford but I'm not sure. I should explain that for the Sunday Variety Shows we would have a band call from about 2 pm and people who would be on the bill that night would just come along for a quick rehearsal with me (unless they brought their own accompanist or band). Fortunately I was usually a good reader, sometimes even including transposing, so it was once or twice through at the band call and once through in the show, which is why I don't always remember what songs I have done in such shows that I did for quite a few years!
So I would definitely give Sondheim a high rating as a composer and particularly as a melodist, with my very happy experience of performing some of them to back me up!
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Post by tmesis on Oct 7, 2017 12:18:01 GMT
I always regret that I never got to work on A Funny thing... About 30 years ago I was hired as MD for an amateur production of it to be given by an top-notch drama group in Reading. I'd previously done 'Cabaret' with them (we had an excellent run) and put a lot of work into the songs. We held auditions, but there was a distinct lack of interest and many of the women branded it sexist and in the end it was cancelled!
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Post by tmesis on Oct 7, 2017 12:54:44 GMT
Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn
Some of the songs were written individually by the two musicians or jointly or with other writers. If we are speaking of songs, rather than individual jazz compositions. it's a small but very, very classy output. A number of them started out as instrumentals but words were added later. In this case they still work marvellously as songs but are sometimes quite challenging to sing.
Some highlights:
Solitude
Mood Indigo
In a sentimental mood
Sophisticated Lady
It don't mean a thing
Don't get around much anymore
Do nothing 'til you hear from me
I'm beginning to see the light
Satin Doll
Take the 'A' train
Lush Life
Chelsea Bridge
I love listening to and playing all these. Ella provides some definitive versions of nearly all of them in here collaboration with Ellington himself. However, Strayhorn's remarkable Lush Life (most of it written at age 16!) is best heard with Ella in collaboration with Joe Pass, an amazingly intimate performance. I love how the verse is almost like the jazz equivalent of operatic recitative. Rosemary Clooney also collaborated with the Ellington band and provided excellent versions. Do nothing 'til you hear is one of my favourite things to play on piano (and accompany saxophonists in) - the tune has great space to fill with interesting jazz licks.
I've included Strayhorn's Chelsea Bridge which is instrumental only (however Cassandra Wilson does an excellent vocalise on it) because I love it so much. No other piece that I know has such anguished, bittersweet harmonies; it's an absolute delight to play and really does evoke, with Debussian chords, an impressionist painting.
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 7, 2017 13:44:57 GMT
I think I may have played for 'Send in the Clowns' once or twice at Stratford East but it has never impressed me, perhaps because I have never seen the show. I didn't find Send In The Clowns did anything for me hearing it as a stand alone song but when I actually heard it in context in A Little Night Music (Menier prod was my 1st) I found it very moving. I've just seen a car advert using Send In The Clowns as music. Does this mean Sondheim has finally made it as a commercial composer? ;-) |
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Post by tonyloco on Oct 7, 2017 14:28:29 GMT
I didn't find Send In The Clowns did anything for me hearing it as a stand alone song but when I actually heard it in context in A Little Night Music (Menier prod was my 1st) I found it very moving. I suppose the next time there is a revival of 'A Little Night Music' I ought to go and see it – assuming I am still able to go and see anything! |
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Post by tonyloco on Oct 7, 2017 15:25:59 GMT
I always regret that I never got to work on A Funny thing... About 30 years ago I was hired as MD for an amateur production of it to be given by an top-notch drama group in Reading. I'd previously done 'Cabaret' with them (we had an excellent run) and put a lot of work into the songs. We held auditions, but there was a distinct lack of interest and many of the women branded it sexist and in the end it was cancelled! Oh, that's a shame – it's a splendid show. I saw the original London production in 1963 with Frankie Howerd, which was great fun, and I thought the National Theatre version in 2004 with Desmond Barritt was also hilarious. And the film preserves Zero Mostel's Broadway performance alongside Phil Silvers and Buster Keaton. Pity you didn't get a chance to work on it. |
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Post by tonyloco on Oct 7, 2017 16:03:20 GMT
Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn Some of the songs were written individually by the two musicians or jointly or with other writers. If we are speaking of songs, rather than individual jazz compositions. it's a small but very, very classy output. A number of them started out as instrumentals but words were added later. In this case they still work marvellously as songs but are sometimes quite challenging to sing. Yes, absolutely – definitely a small but very classy collection of songs. I heard the great Duke Ellington and his Orchestra live at what I think was then called the Hammersmith Odeon in the early 1960s. I know it sounds corny, but they started playing 'Take the "A" Train' just before the curtains opened to reveal the Duke and his Orchestra on stage performing their theme tune, with many of the original players still there, and it seemed like a truly historic moment. I wish I had my programme as the only name I can definitely remember was Paul Gonsalves and I am fairly sure Johnny Hodges was still there as well. Anyway, it was definitely a goosebumps occasion. And of course I played a number of times for Adelaide Hall, who was a truly legendary figure in the history of jazz and the Great American Songbook and created 'Creole Love Call' when she was singing with Ellington. 'Satin Doll' was one of her songs and Wiki also lists 'Chelsea Bridge' in her entry but we never attempted either of those. She always sang 'I can't give you anything but love' (from 'Blackbirds of 1928') but I can't remember what else we did although I think she had an arrangement of 'Creole Love Call' that she could do with just a pianist. Oh yes, she also liked to do 'Streets of London' but she tended to get the words muddled up and then it would be a fine game of improvisation between her and me to see how we would manage to finish the song! Of all the Ellington/Strayhorn songs you list, I think 'Don't get around much any more' was probably the only one I would ever play in my solo repertoire, unless I had the music in front of me when I might play 'Mood Indigo', 'Solitude' and 'I'm beginning to see the light'. Actually, I always found 'Don't get around much any more' rewarding to play as the melody falls easily under the fingers, and the song would almost always be recognised by my audience with a little acknowledgement of familiarity – a bit like 'Ain't Misbehavin'', but that of course is by the great Thomas 'Fats' Waller! |
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Post by tmesis on Oct 7, 2017 16:15:31 GMT
I didn't find Send In The Clowns did anything for me hearing it as a stand alone song but when I actually heard it in context in A Little Night Music (Menier prod was my 1st) I found it very moving. I suppose the next time there is a revival of 'A Little Night Music' I ought to go and see it – assuming I am still able to go and see anything! Yes I can recommend it highly. If you like Der Rosenkavalier, which I do, it has something of the feel of that opera, although musically I think it's closer to Ravel, another one of my idols, than R. Strauss. |
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Post by tonyloco on Oct 7, 2017 16:24:50 GMT
Yes I can recommend it highly. If you like Der Rosenkavalier, which I do, it has something of the feel of that opera, although musically I think it's closer to Ravel, another one of my idols, than R. Strauss. Oh, well if somebody had told me that before, I would certainly have gone to see it! |
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 7, 2017 18:43:44 GMT
Yes I can recommend it highly. If you like Der Rosenkavalier, which I do, it has something of the feel of that opera, although musically I think it's closer to Ravel, another one of my idols, than R. Strauss. I've heard Soon/Later/Now compared to the Rosenkavalier trio, though I don't hear any real similarity myself. For starters I can listen to the former without starting to cry! I guess the liking both works for me though, as Rosenkavalier is my favourite opera & ALNM my favourite Sondheim musical. |
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Post by tonyloco on Oct 7, 2017 20:45:01 GMT
Yes I can recommend it highly. If you like Der Rosenkavalier, which I do, it has something of the feel of that opera, although musically I think it's closer to Ravel, another one of my idols, than R. Strauss. I've heard Soon/Later/Now compared to the Rosenkavalier trio, though I don't hear any real similarity myself. For starters I can listen to the former without starting to cry! I guess the liking both works for me though, as Rosenkavalier is my favourite opera & ALNM my favourite Sondheim musical. Now you are all making me feel guilty that I have never seen ALNM and you all love it! So how can I top that? Well, I did see Elisabeth Schwarzkopf sing the Marschallin in Paris in the Spring in either 1963 or 1966 (one or the other – I don't remember which). Will that do? I went to Paris in the Spring in 1964 and 1965 to hear Callas sing 'Norma' and the Rosenkavalier was either the year before or the year after. |
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 7, 2017 21:30:53 GMT
Now you are all making me feel guilty that I have never seen ALNM and you all love it! So how can I top that? Well, I did see Elisabeth Schwarzkopf sing the Marschallin in Paris in the Spring in either 1963 or 1966 (one or the other – I don't remember which). Will that do? I went to Paris in the Spring in 1964 and 1965 to hear Callas sing 'Norma' and the Rosenkavalier was either the year before or the year after. Yes, I am definitely envying that like mad! I would have loved to have seen Schwarzkopf live, as I really enjoy her recordings, but she retired several years before I was born. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 21:46:22 GMT
I think I may have played for 'Send in the Clowns' once or twice at Stratford East but it has never impressed me, perhaps because I have never seen the show. I didn't find Send In The Clowns did anything for me hearing it as a stand alone song but when I actually heard it in context in A Little Night Music (Menier prod was my 1st) I found it very moving. I've just seen a car advert using Send In The Clowns as music. Does this mean Sondheim has finally made it as a commercial composer? ;-) I remember hearing him speak on the radio (I think it was with Michael Ball) about his commercial success and specifically about Send In The Clowns. He said it should definitely be included on his compilation album entitled “Sondheim’s Greatest Hit” [sic]...! It is an incredible song in isolation, I feel, but even more incredible within the context of the show. But it needs that instrumental break for Fredrik’s spoken words. Heart-breaking... The song has a fascinating history too. Without Glynis Johns it might never have sounded as it does today. |
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Post by tonyloco on Oct 7, 2017 21:50:46 GMT
Yes, I am definitely envying that like mad! I would have loved to have seen Schwarzkopf live, as I really enjoy her recordings, but she retired several years before I was born. Well, we are getting a bit off thread here, or I certainly am, but in addition to the Paris 'Rosenkavalier' I saw Schwarzkopf sing the Willow Song and Ave Maria from Verdi's 'Otello' in a gala at Covent Garden with an appropriate set and a rather inappropriate costume with a blonde wig. The surprise at the Garden was just how big her voice sounded. I also saw several of her solo recitals at the Festival Hall and she managed to outshine Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Victoria de los Angeles at the Gerald Moore Farewell Concert by making Hugo Wolf's 'Kennst du das Land' the musical and artistic climax of the entire concert, although the Cats' Duet with Victoria also went down well! |
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Post by tmesis on Oct 7, 2017 22:20:40 GMT
I'm also a huge Schwarzkopf fan. Some find her a bit mannered but I would say she is my favourite soprano of all. Superb in R. Strauss and Mozart, about the most meticulous lieder singer there is and peerless in operetta - I love her Merry Widow (both versions) and J. Strauss. She always seems to have time, no matter how fast she is singing, to point a word or phrase deliciously that other singers just skate over. I love her operetta compilation CD which has a fabulously camp Nuns' Chorus. Ken Dodd agrees with me; he picked her wonderful Chambre Separaee as one of his Desert Island Discs and he asked for it to be sung by Betty Blackhead!
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