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Post by tributary on Sept 13, 2017 23:23:34 GMT
The only critical successes since he took over have been in US accents. Follies, The Flick, The Red Barn, Ma Rainey.
The flops are obvious and numerous and the revivals have been lacklustre.
I've said on here before he is failing to attract the best talent to him. Both the Featherstone Court and the Goold Almeida are embarrassing comparisons to the mess the NT currently is. Speculation in Goold's interview in the Standard today about him taking over post Norris vacating the seat.
So how long before he goes?
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Post by lynette on Sept 13, 2017 23:59:11 GMT
Interesting point, tribs and watching the prog about Peter Hall on the tv this evening one wonders if plays are getting lost in the post or the spam box or RN doesn't read anything new or has poor taste. Nothing 'new' at the NT lately compares with what Hall 'found' or with what the RCourt for example manages to find. Hence my wish that the NT 'finds' classics that are proven until they get their act together. Hall wanted the NT to speak to the nation. And look what financial straits he had to contend with. As of now the NT speaks to very few. And certainly not the nation and certainly it is no longer at the heart of contemporary culture.
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Post by theatremadness on Sept 14, 2017 0:01:47 GMT
Speculation in Goold's interview in the Standard today about him taking over post Norris vacating the seat. Weird - literally just finished reading that interview as I clicked on this thread! It says that Goold's chance of taking over after Norris are next to nothing, in fact the quote (edited down slightly by me) is "It's commonly accepted....that after Rufus Norris it will have to be a woman next time, so has his time passed?...."I suspect it probably has, hasn't it?"", so I don't think there's much speculation about him taking over. What was Nicholas Hytner's track record like at the beginning of his tenure? |
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Post by dani on Sept 14, 2017 0:18:00 GMT
There's no way Goold will replace Norris, and as the previous commenter says this isn't what the Standard interview proposes or foresees. I thought that, with a few exceptions, the new writing was weak during Hytner's twelve years in charge, and I don't think Norris is doing worse, although Common and Salome were two terrible flops in a row in the Olivier, so I do understand why the knives are out.
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Post by lonlad on Sept 14, 2017 5:37:31 GMT
Hytner had his flops, god knows (Travelling Light anyone?) and also had a stonking huge musical success early on (JERRY SPRINGER THE OPERA) but it's partly Norris's bad luck that a lot of the people who might have worked with him are going inevitably to migrate towards Elliott's new company and of course Hytner's ..... BARBER SHOP CHRONICLES was a lovely surprise and there were a lot of us out there who liked what Katie Mitchell brought last year to Sarah Kane but, yes, it is also bad luck that SALOME and COMMON arrived back to back, leaving a stench on the Olivier that FOLLIES arrived in the nick of time to erase. Interesting, too, Norris's keen-ness on bringing shows back -- which of course represents the safer option: JANE EYRE, AMADEUS, BARBER SHOP etc -- better to stick with what you know has worked than try something new.
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Post by Jan on Sept 14, 2017 6:06:53 GMT
I saw the Goold interview too. Of course he has to say he supports a woman being the next NT director and sighing that he's therefore too old at 45 to ever get the job but of course Trevr Nunn got the job at 57 so there's plenty of time. Also of interest are Goold's plans to expand the Almeida into a new space somewhere so they can stage more plays.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 6:55:31 GMT
That's interesting. Pleased to see they are talking about an extra space in addition to the current theatre, not moving the whole thing. Wonder if they were considering to go into the space in the new development round the corner that the Kings Head is getting.
The Almeida certainly has an excellent hit rate of transfers at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 7:09:35 GMT
I'd have thought the Board are more likely to let him do his contract (five years?) and then not renew than actively get rid of him. The latter would attract a whole heap of unhelpful publicity and put the next person under even more of a spotlight. And he's not doing that badly - there's not a lot of energy coming from the NT at the moment but it can amble on for a few more years - hopefully with Norris leaving it with more of a commitment to real diversity than it had when he started, which would be a worthwhile legacy.
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Post by kathryn on Sept 14, 2017 7:52:35 GMT
There's no way Goold will replace Norris, and as the previous commenter says this isn't what the Standard interview proposes or foresees. I thought that, with a few exceptions, the new writing was weak during Hytner's twelve years in charge, and I don't think Norris is doing worse, although Common and Salome were two terrible flops in a row in the Olivier, so I do understand why the knives are out. The thing is with new writing an AD only needs a few runaway hits to be seen as a success. Finding really good new plays is the hardest thing to do. Norris hasn't done so yet, but that doesn't mean he won't. |
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Post by dani on Sept 14, 2017 8:05:57 GMT
That's so true. Hytner is judged on the success of The History Boys, Curious Incident, War Horse, and One Man Two Guvnors, rather than things like Fram, People and Greenland.
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Post by Jan on Sept 14, 2017 8:31:21 GMT
There's no way Goold will replace Norris, and as the previous commenter says this isn't what the Standard interview proposes or foresees. I thought that, with a few exceptions, the new writing was weak during Hytner's twelve years in charge, and I don't think Norris is doing worse, although Common and Salome were two terrible flops in a row in the Olivier, so I do understand why the knives are out. The thing is with new writing an AD only needs a few runaway hits to be seen as a success. Finding really good new plays is the hardest thing to do. Norris hasn't done so yet, but that doesn't mean he won't. His hit rate is very low considering he has dedicated the Cottesloe entirely to new plays in addition to the ones he's put in the other houses, no previous AD did that. On the other hand Rupert Goold's hit rate with new plays is very high. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 8:39:21 GMT
Success seems to depend less on the AD as a person and who they have in their pockets. Lord knows even I could be a decent AD if I had regular access to the likes of Mike Bartlett, James Graham, and Robert Icke, or Alan Bennett, Richard Bean, and Marianne Elliott. Rufus is making a good go of a working relationship with Ivo van Hove, but it's by no means exclusive and it seems you need playwrights just as much as you need directors if not more so.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 8:49:43 GMT
What @baemax said for an AD anywhere but particularly like the NT it's about getting the right people (arguably at the right time as well) if you get yourself a Mike Bartlett or a Marianne Elliot on the way up then you're sorted with a couple of hits and a legacy of who you helped 'make' and your AD reputation is sound.
As above we also only tend to remember what 4-5 of the AD's 'successes' and for the NT in particular there's a LOT of Rep to fill, and for every War Horse there's a couple of Salomes or Greenlands or just middling meh revivals that are just-ok-not-great.
I think it's still too early to write off his tenure as a 'failure' no he might not go down as the greatest AD of the NT but I think he'd have to be doing a lot worse to stuff it up entirely. As with many things it's timing and he also has 'come of age' at the NT while a lot of other places are doing extremely well and a) making the NT look bad b) poaching the various creatives who might have worked there. That's not necessarily anything anyone can foresee or control.
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Post by Jan on Sept 14, 2017 8:54:52 GMT
Success seems to depend less on the AD as a person and who they have in their pockets. Lord knows even I could be a decent AD if I had regular access to the likes of Mike Bartlett, James Graham, and Robert Icke, or Alan Bennett, Richard Bean, and Marianne Elliott. Rufus is making a good go of a working relationship with Ivo van Hove, but it's by no means exclusive and it seems you need playwrights just as much as you need directors if not more so. That is true, they have to be good producers (Peter Hall was very good). I wonder how relations are these days between Norris and Sir David Hare, he has filled the bigger houses with new plays for all previous ADs (except Trevor Nunn) and you would have thought he'd have churned out one of "state of the nation" efforts by now - I bet he was annoyed Norris went with the non-playwright Duffy for the Brexit thing. Also there were hints Hare was unhappy with the staging of his Red Barn adaptation. |
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Post by zahidf on Sept 14, 2017 9:14:45 GMT
Common, Salome and the Suicide ( especially) were pretty massive flops. But then I remember Danton's Death and Greenland as well being terrible!
I imagine it'll be stuff like Angels in America, Network and Pinnochio which will remembered once he has left.
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Post by crowblack on Sept 14, 2017 9:28:48 GMT
As of now the NT speaks to very few. And certainly not the nation Depends what you call 'the nation'. Adaptations of already popular, school curriculum books (Hytner's recent big successes)? I didn't find his work as the National as interesting as his earlier stuff at the Royal Exchange. Mosquitoes is wonderful, with four and five star reviews, and Common a bold experiment that didn't come off but I'm glad it was attempted. Angels and Follies are hits, and I'm hoping to catch Barber Shop Chronicles when it comes round again. I was struck, watching all the Peter Hall obituaries, what an incredibly male game theatre was and in many places still is. It remained so at the National under Hytner: at the RX, his Edward II was a bold staging of a very gay play at a time when, I think, he wasn't 'out'. Shame he wasn't as bold with women writers and female themes. Mosquitoes is a high-profile play by a woman writer and let's hope we see more like this. The Almeida and Vics - and so many other theatres - still feel very male and pale. |
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Post by zahidf on Sept 14, 2017 9:45:42 GMT
As of now the NT speaks to very few. And certainly not the nation Depends what you call 'the nation'. Adaptations of already popular, school curriculum books (Hytner's recent big successes)? I didn't find his work as the National as interesting as his earlier stuff at the Royal Exchange. Mosquitoes is wonderful, with four and five star reviews, and Common a bold experiment that didn't come off but I'm glad it was attempted. Angels and Follies are hits, and I'm hoping to catch Barber Shop Chronicles when it comes round again. I was struck, watching all the Peter Hall obituaries, what an incredibly male game theatre was and in many places still is. It remained so at the National under Hytner: at the RX, his Edward II was a bold staging of a very gay play at a time when, I think, he wasn't 'out'. Shame he wasn't as bold with women writers and female themes. Mosquitoes is a high-profile play by a woman writer and let's hope we see more like this. The Almeida and Vics - and so many other theatres - still feel very male and pale. There was a good blog on this recently that looked at female representation at the 'main' theatres and found the national to be third. It had a 3 out of 16 with female writers. whereas the Royal Court has 9 out of 16 recent ones.
The worse offenders where the young vic and Old vic ( the latter of which had none!)
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Post by Jan on Sept 14, 2017 9:51:11 GMT
It remained so at the National under Hytner: at the RX, his Edward II was a bold staging of a very gay play at a time when, I think, he wasn't 'out'. I saw that production, it was a good production but it hardly emphasised the gay aspects of the play at all, certainly far less than the production McKellen had been in over a decade before which was genuinely bold. |
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Post by crowblack on Sept 14, 2017 10:10:31 GMT
it hardly emphasised the gay aspects of the play at all It did! I saw it a couple of times and went to the discussion, where they said there were walk outs pretty well every night (we witnessed one). I've got the review cuttings somewhere, one of them from one of the broadsheets (Times, maybe), dripping with distaste for the subject matter. |
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Post by crowblack on Sept 14, 2017 10:15:31 GMT
and found the national to be third Though they're still hived off to the smallest space - and I'm astonished Mosquitoes hasn't been given the NT LIve treatment (unless a transfer or London Rad style TV adaptation is announced - though given Colman's TV and film work a transfer seems unlikely). |
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Post by zahidf on Sept 14, 2017 10:18:28 GMT
and found the national to be third Though they're still hived off to the smallest space - and I'm astonished Mosquitoes hasn't been given the NT LIve treatment (unless a transfer or London Rad style TV adaptation is announced - though given Colman's TV and film work a transfer seems unlikely). Yeah, that was part of the criteria: Royal court got extra marks for putting female playwirghts on the main space instead of being hived off to the smaller one. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 10:24:11 GMT
Oh jiminy. I looked at the title of this thread and thought it was going to be a completely different discussion.
Slightly disappointed really.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 10:24:39 GMT
We should have a ready made off the shelf thread for this, it's one of those that always happens in some shape or form.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 10:40:55 GMT
Oh jiminy. I looked at the title of this thread and thought it was going to be a completely different discussion. Slightly disappointed really. I laughed so loud at that it's a good thing I'm home alone. I'm actually willing to thoroughly research THAT thread. For, science or something. (I have a thing for men called Rufus in general...and well there's something about him, I judge me enough for this you don't have to) |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 10:52:12 GMT
I'll just leave my regular post in threads about Rufus Norris being a disaster pointing out that Angels was a sell-out, and Follies, Mosquitoes and Oslo are largely sold out, and Network is largely sold out. Not sure that Hytner or other predecessors did better than that in any given period.
In response to the predicted response saying he wasn't responsible for all these - you can't blame him for everything that doesn't work, and refuse to give him credit for anything that does work.
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