4,970 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on May 18, 2017 15:58:20 GMT
errr. thank you for calling me bitter. can you really compare sondheim and lloyd webber? i wasn't. they both share the same birthday but that's about that. one is mainstream and the other arthouse. how are you measuring success? both have it but in different forms. No, I didn't say you are bitter, I think you are an excellent poster on the whole. I enjoy his work, but I am not one of the people that go giddy and worship the ground he walks on. I agree you cannot compere Webber and Sondheim, both do different genres of musical and both are thrilling for different reasons. |
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Post by orchestrator on May 19, 2017 6:42:02 GMT
if Webber was American they would exhalt him. I’m guessing you mean exalt, not exult or exhort. Weird biblical word to use about any composer. I think there are plenty of Americans who don’t “get” Sondheim. I’d go so far as to say the proportion of Brits that “get” him is higher! ALW has had a great knack for giving the public what they want and real bravery in choosing his subjects. Some of his melodies are stirring. His middle-8s are often a let-down, even in Memory, and he doesn’t really write with an understanding of the human singing voice, as shown by the melodies which shift octaves including that song that was in Beautiful Game and then appeared in the Phantom sequel. He doesn’t really understand chromaticism, which is why the Phantom “theme” is believably a steal: “Listen to this, guys, I’ve gone chromatic!”. I’m not an expert in ALW but the worst song I know by him is The Holly And The Ivy from WIW. |
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Post by schuttep on May 19, 2017 8:50:31 GMT
Webber has written many musicals in different styles, with varying styles of music. Sondheim has, too: from Pacific Overtures, Assassins, to Sunday in the Park With George. All in very different styles. I'm not American. |
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Post by spendleb on May 19, 2017 12:53:52 GMT
Love Wildhorn personally, I've listened to Jekyll & Hyde for years (and saw it just a few days ago) and love The Scarlet Pimpernel.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2017 15:21:10 GMT
if Webber was American they would exhalt him. I’m guessing you mean exalt, not exult or exhort. Weird biblical word to use about any composer. I think there are plenty of Americans who don’t “get” Sondheim. I’d go so far as to say the proportion of Brits that “get” him is higher! ALW has had a great knack for giving the public what they want and real bravery in choosing his subjects. Some of his melodies are stirring. His middle-8s are often a let-down, even in Memory, and he doesn’t really write with an understanding of the human singing voice, as shown by the melodies which shift octaves including that song that was in Beautiful Game and then appeared in the Phantom sequel. He doesn’t really understand chromaticism, which is why the Phantom “theme” is believably a steal: “Listen to this, guys, I’ve gone chromatic!”. I’m not an expert in ALW but the worst song I know by him is The Holly And The Ivy from WIW. I think the main point is that he's giving people what they want. For me that's what's most important, because at the end of the day theatre is supposed to entertain people. And that's what ALW (usually) does. |
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Post by orchestrator on May 19, 2017 22:52:06 GMT
I’m guessing you mean exalt, not exult or exhort. Weird biblical word to use about any composer. I think there are plenty of Americans who don’t “get” Sondheim. I’d go so far as to say the proportion of Brits that “get” him is higher! ALW has had a great knack for giving the public what they want and real bravery in choosing his subjects. Some of his melodies are stirring. His middle-8s are often a let-down, even in Memory, and he doesn’t really write with an understanding of the human singing voice, as shown by the melodies which shift octaves including that song that was in Beautiful Game and then appeared in the Phantom sequel. He doesn’t really understand chromaticism, which is why the Phantom “theme” is believably a steal: “Listen to this, guys, I’ve gone chromatic!”. I’m not an expert in ALW but the worst song I know by him is The Holly And The Ivy from WIW. I think the main point is that he's giving people what they want. For me that's what's most important, because at the end of the day theatre is supposed to entertain people. And that's what ALW (usually) does. Except that he’s kinda failed at giving them what they want with most of his recent shows. So does that mean he’s been trying to be better than “The McDonalds of Musical Theatre”? You might as well say that pop music is better than classical music because more people like it. Or The Mousetrap is better than Hamlet, it’s been running for 62 years. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 9:47:47 GMT
I think the main point is that he's giving people what they want. For me that's what's most important, because at the end of the day theatre is supposed to entertain people. And that's what ALW (usually) does. Except that he’s kinda failed at giving them what they want with most of his recent shows. So does that mean he’s been trying to be better than “The McDonalds of Musical Theatre”? You might as well say that pop music is better than classical music because more people like it. Or The Mousetrap is better than Hamlet, it’s been running for 62 years. It's not like Sondheim has been giving people what they want either. Also, the Mousetrap/Hamlet comparison doesn't add up, because they were written hundreds of years apart, while Sondheim and Webber were at their prime around the same time. |
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Post by orchestrator on May 20, 2017 10:30:40 GMT
Except that he’s kinda failed at giving them what they want with most of his recent shows. So does that mean he’s been trying to be better than “The McDonalds of Musical Theatre”? You might as well say that pop music is better than classical music because more people like it. Or The Mousetrap is better than Hamlet, it’s been running for 62 years. It's not like Sondheim has been giving people what they want either. Also, the Mousetrap/Hamlet comparison doesn't add up, because they were written hundreds of years apart, while Sondheim and Webber were at their prime around the same time. Scratch Hamlet and insert Waiting For Godot. Is Christie to be commended for giving people what they want over Beckett who insisted on aiming higher? The thing about Sondheim compared with ALW is that, apart from Joseph which was written as a show for schools to do, Sondheims show are and will continue to be performed at every level, professional, college, high school, amdram, whereas no one will even know that Beautiful Game, Jeeves, Love Never Dies, Woman In White, the most recent one, even exist in 30 years time. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 10:59:33 GMT
It's not like Sondheim has been giving people what they want either. Also, the Mousetrap/Hamlet comparison doesn't add up, because they were written hundreds of years apart, while Sondheim and Webber were at their prime around the same time. Scratch Hamlet and insert Waiting For Godot. Is Christie to be commended for giving people what they want over Beckett who insisted on aiming higher? The thing about Sondheim compared with ALW is that, apart from Joseph which was written as a show for schools to do, Sondheims show are and will continue to be performed at every level, professional, college, high school, amdram, whereas no one will even know that Beautiful Game, Jeeves, Love Never Dies, Woman In White, the most recent one, even exist in 30 years time. I very much doubt that Saturday Night, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, Anyone can Whistle, The Frogs, Passion and Bounce/Road Show will be remembered throughout eternity. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 13:10:24 GMT
Passion is one of Sondheim's greatest. I had to see it live to appreciate it fully but its austere harmonic palette, blossoming at times into beautiful complex chords, its winding melodies and its lyrical formality barely covering the boiling emotions beneath are, to my mind, perfection.
I see it as one of Sondheim's greatest scores and, as a piece of theatre, it always leaves me as a blubbering wreck.
I understand that it leaves some people cold but, to be perfectly frank, I don't understand those people.
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1,103 posts
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Post by mallardo on May 20, 2017 13:52:30 GMT
I certainly agree about Passion. The problem with it is not the music, which is gorgeous in the extreme, but the fact that many people just don't want Fosca to prevail, they don't buy Giorgio's conversion. I think it's a stretch but Sondheim's score makes a believer out of me.
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Post by tmesis on May 20, 2017 20:20:58 GMT
I'm another Passion fan. I was completely gripped by the Donmar production a few years back. Time for a revival.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 20:32:48 GMT
Or The Mousetrap is better than Hamlet, it’s been running for 62 years. Hamlet has been running for 414 years. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 20:58:49 GMT
The Mousetrap, as any good scholar will tell you, has been running for exactly the same time as Hamlet, not a day more or less.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 21:19:05 GMT
The worst thing about ALW and Sondheim comparisons is inequality. ALW is often criticised for repeating the same melody, but Sondheim does it and no one says a word.
I think both are great but i do think ALW and B&S are gret at creating a setting and atmosphere with their music more so than Sondheim (except Sweeney Todd). You just are immediately transported to a world
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 21:45:12 GMT
Even a cursory study shows very clearly how Sondheim uses scales and harmony to create the very different worlds of his shows. Books have been written on this but the pointillism expressed through minimalism of the Glass/Reich/Adams school for Sunday in the Park, the waltz heavy Little Night Music redolent of the period, the latin rhythms of Bacharach era pop for Company, the pastiches of Kern, Romberg, Porter and all in Follies. Every single show from Company on creates its own appropriate sound world.
I mean, people can not feel it, but Sondheim is leagues ahead in this field.
Schoenberg in Miss Saigon makes very little effort on that direction, leaving the heavy lifting to Bill Brohn's orchestrations for example.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 9:43:41 GMT
Even a cursory study shows very clearly how Sondheim uses scales and harmony to create the very different worlds of his shows. Books have been written on this ... I mean, people can not feel it, but Sondheim is leagues ahead in this field. I won't claim that Sondheim's music isn't very intricate. But you yourself just said it: "people can not feel it". For me it's not important how complicated a score is. I think the most important part is how the score makes me feel. I guess that's just personal preference, but most people are not as well educated in music as you may be, and just make judgements based on what they feel when they hear a song. And those people are a huge part of the target audience. |
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Post by Someone in a tree on May 21, 2017 9:59:25 GMT
Although your average Joe may not be able to put a technically term to chromatic scales and diminished sevenths "blah blah. Yawn yawn" but they can still feel the psychology of the score
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 10:06:46 GMT
Although your average Joe may not be able to put a technically term to chromatic scales and diminished sevenths "blah blah. Yawn yawn" but they can still feel the psychology of the score Maybe so, but ALW's shows are still more popular than Sondheim's. This means your average Joe must like his shows more. |
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4,955 posts
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Post by Someone in a tree on May 21, 2017 11:51:52 GMT
Maybe the average Joe doesn't like the uncomfortable psychology of a Sondi show and stays well clear. A lot of folk don't like to be challenged ... anything for an easy ride
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 11:53:25 GMT
Maybe the average Joe doesn't like the uncomfortable psychology of a Sondi show and stays well clear. A lot of folk don't like to be challenged ... anything for an easy ride At the end of the day, most people go to the theatre to be entertained. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 13:48:54 GMT
Maybe the average Joe doesn't like the uncomfortable psychology of a Sondi show and stays well clear. A lot of folk don't like to be challenged ... anything for an easy ride At the end of the day, most people go to the theatre to be entertained. It isn't an either/or, the vast proportion want to be entertained and challenged. Very few people seek out mindless entertainment in the theatre (they can get enough of that that at home). |
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Post by orchestrator on May 21, 2017 13:49:37 GMT
Although your average Joe may not be able to put a technically term to chromatic scales and diminished sevenths "blah blah. Yawn yawn" but they can still feel the psychology of the score Maybe so, but ALW's shows are still more popular than Sondheim's. This means your average Joe must like his shows more. What’s your point? Never mind the quality, feel the width? |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 13:53:27 GMT
Even a cursory study shows very clearly how Sondheim uses scales and harmony to create the very different worlds of his shows. Books have been written on this ... I mean, people can not feel it, but Sondheim is leagues ahead in this field. I won't claim that Sondheim's music isn't very intricate. But you yourself just said it: "people can not feel it". If you can't feel "Our Time" at the end of Merrily, I do feel a little bit sorry for you. That song, at that point in the show sends me soaring. It pinpoints the emotions perfectly. "Gives you the shivers" indeed. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 14:28:35 GMT
There's place for ALW and Sondheim. Some people go to the theatre to be entertained, others to be challenged. There's a reason we have superhero blockbusters and arthouse indie films, a reason we have McDonalds and gourmet restaurants. More than that, it's not always about giving people what they want or think they want. It's about creating and writing what feels right or inspires you as a writer/composer. Oftentimes the most successful and gamechanging pieces of art are those that people would never have expected they'd like or want. The fact that Sondheim hasn't given into writing musicals for the sake of commercial success and yet has still managed to have such a prolific career and be such a well known name in theatre says it all. At the same time, ALW is also well respected for doing what he does. They both stay true to themselves and it works for them.
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