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Post by firefingers on Feb 4, 2016 21:56:35 GMT
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Post by PhantomNcl on Feb 5, 2016 9:57:06 GMT
The sound on the current tour of Hairspray is terrible, though this is down to the sound desk ops rather than the actual design. I think one of the guys is fairly new, but kept missing cues and not turning mics on until a few seconds after the performers had started talking/singing, but when the other guy took over in the 2nd act there were still missed cues.
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Post by TheatreDust on Feb 5, 2016 10:58:46 GMT
Thanks for posting the link - a very interesting piece. like every other production in the West End, will hire it instead. Although I have no doubt you are right, this^ still amazes me. I completely see the sense of something like Gypsy or Bend It Like Beckham hiring everything; however, how can it be financially efficient for long runners like Les Mis or Phantom to do the same? I guess they must have some very competitive deals and presumably it gives a very flat financial profile because the costs are continuous. Now that I'm musing on the subject, I'm curious about how often big elements of the sound systems on such shows are replaced? For example, how often does the sound desk on Les Mis get upgraded to a new one (not a replacement because the other one is faulty or just old, but when do they change the desk for one with new features so that they can use those new features)? Is it every five years, ten? Presumably, despite being hired, everything that a long-running show gets is completely new? Do they run them to the end of life (e.g. for things like mic packs) or do they get swapped out regularly and then the used ones get hired out again to lower budget productions? |
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Post by Nelly on Feb 5, 2016 12:08:45 GMT
Thanks for posting the link - a very interesting piece. like every other production in the West End, will hire it instead. Although I have no doubt you are right, this^ still amazes me. I completely see the sense of something like Gypsy or Bend It Like Beckham hiring everything; however, how can it be financially efficient for long runners like Les Mis or Phantom to do the same? I guess they must have some very competitive deals and presumably it gives a very flat financial profile because the costs are continuous. Now that I'm musing on the subject, I'm curious about how often big elements of the sound systems on such shows are replaced? For example, how often does the sound desk on Les Mis get upgraded to a new one (not a replacement because the other one is faulty or just old, but when do they change the desk for one with new features so that they can use those new features)? Is it every five years, ten? Presumably, despite being hired, everything that a long-running show gets is completely new? Do they run them to the end of life (e.g. for things like mic packs) or do they get swapped out regularly and then the used ones get hired out again to lower budget productions? I can only speak from a lighting standpoint here. No show will ever buy their rig outright at the beginning. If the show is super-duper long running then eventually the hire companies will 'write-off' the equipment on their books and a deal will be agreed to charge a lesser rate but obviously are still contracted should lights malfunction and cant be repaired on site. No the equipment won't be brand new (unless it's specialised and the company either doesn't own it before and can justify purchasing it), some hire companies's equipment is more reliable than others as it's better looked after when back at the warehouses etc. Regarding technology updates, they'll really only get swapped out if there is justification for it and not so they can play with new features. For example, Les Mis had to swap their lighting desk to a totally different manufacturer as the previous desk manufacturer stopped making and supporting the desk. Hope some of this info is informative. I know this was a thread about sound, but there you go! Maybe we can change the subject to Theatre Tech! haha |
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Post by firefingers on Feb 5, 2016 15:20:34 GMT
Thanks for posting the link - a very interesting piece. like every other production in the West End, will hire it instead. Although I have no doubt you are right, this^ still amazes me. I completely see the sense of something like Gypsy or Bend It Like Beckham hiring everything; however, how can it be financially efficient for long runners like Les Mis or Phantom to do the same? I guess they must have some very competitive deals and presumably it gives a very flat financial profile because the costs are continuous. Now that I'm musing on the subject, I'm curious about how often big elements of the sound systems on such shows are replaced? For example, how often does the sound desk on Les Mis get upgraded to a new one (not a replacement because the other one is faulty or just old, but when do they change the desk for one with new features so that they can use those new features)? Is it every five years, ten? Presumably, despite being hired, everything that a long-running show gets is completely new? Do they run them to the end of life (e.g. for things like mic packs) or do they get swapped out regularly and then the used ones get hired out again to lower budget productions? You hire instead of buying for a few reasons. Mainly, it is so that should equipment fail then the replacement is already paid for along with people to install and set it up. Autograph Sound, the hire company refereed to in the article, are the most expensive because they keep a back up of every single piece of equipment they have out on a show. So they have at least 15 £250,000 mixing desks in the West End, and another 15 in a warehouse should something go wrong. In fact, they have staff on call until after Act 2 starts on their West End shows, so if something fails in Act 1 it can be replaced for Act 2, at no extra cost to the show. The other is that technology moves quickly and so by hiring you aren't left with equipment that is outdated. Les Mis had a few days off back in... 2013 I think, which was to put in a whole new sound system and put in the new orchestra. If you buy something today, a few years from now it may be useless. But big thing replacement is quite rare, as the set up time takes a long time and shows don't want to loose money with dark time. That said, most will need redoing after 6 years or so. Billy Elliott got a full redesign only a few years ago as the set up was life expired. And as you noticed, it shifts a load of expenditure from "set up cost" to "weekly running cost", which is far more tempting to an investor. As far as radio mics go, the packs will last years (although you always have spares on site as failures are frequent) but the cable with the actually little mic in it (the thing you can see stuck in the hairline or mounted off the ear) has a very short life span. To make it so small they end up being very fragile and susceptible to moisture, heat, dust etc. So the little mic bit on big West End shows will do 6 weeks on a lead, then be put onto an ensemble member until they sound so dull that the Sound No. 1 feels it is detrimental to the show, then they get binned. So life span is about 3-6 months if they don't break from being stood on or dropped in a cup of tea. And that little bit can cost up to £450, and a lot of the cast on Les Mis where two in case their is a failure, so that is almost £1000 just sat on an actor's head. And no, not everything is new, but equipment is fully checked and serviced before going out again (well most of the time...). This includes stuff like repainting speakers so they look fresh as a daisy. But a sound designer for a big West End show may well want the latest toys that the hire company then has to buy brand new specially, which puts the hire cost up but is brand new gear. I talked to somone involved in Aladdin a month ago and it has some pricey toys on it that haven't been used in a long running West End show before, so again that £1.8 million figure is at the top end for sound equipment for a West End show. |
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Post by Jon on Feb 5, 2016 15:28:14 GMT
Phantom closed for a few days back in 2008 or 2009 for a upgrade to the sound. Things like that are necessary investment to keep a show fresh.
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Post by TheatreDust on Feb 5, 2016 16:10:03 GMT
Thanks for the really comprehensive and interesting replies. I'm always fascinated by the tech side of theatre, so I hope we get more threads/posts like yours over time.
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Post by TheatreDust on Feb 5, 2016 19:37:56 GMT
Now, can a techy tell me, what is the purpose of that little box you see sometimes on the side of a proscenium. It looks a bit like a cathode ray tube in shape, but has led red lights arranged in lines where the "screen" bit would be. About 6 lines of lights in 2 columns? I might be wrong - but I'm pretty certain that you are talking about the transmitter that sends the signal for those hard-of-hearing devices that use infrared to pick up their audio feed. Edit: Feeling proud that I might have answered a techie question, but slightly wary that I could have the answer wrong! |
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Post by Michael on Feb 5, 2016 19:45:14 GMT
Now, can a techy tell me, what is the purpose of that little box you see sometimes on the side of a proscenium. It looks a bit like a cathode ray tube in shape, but has led red lights arranged in lines where the "screen" bit would be. About 6 lines of lights in 2 columns? I always thought those were infrared boxes used to prevent someone from illegal filming. |
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Post by danielwhit on Feb 5, 2016 21:59:49 GMT
Now, can a techy tell me, what is the purpose of that little box you see sometimes on the side of a proscenium. It looks a bit like a cathode ray tube in shape, but has led red lights arranged in lines where the "screen" bit would be. About 6 lines of lights in 2 columns? I always thought those were infrared boxes used to prevent someone from illegal filming. Interesting thought - but how would it stop people? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 8:07:06 GMT
I always thought those were infrared boxes used to prevent someone from illegal filming. Interesting thought - but how would it stop people? Sensors are very sensitive to infrared and although cameras have filters to block it many cameras - especially low-end cameras - don't have particularly effective ones. (With many cheap cameras or phone cameras you can do near-infrared photography by putting a filter that blocks visible light over the lens and shooting in the remaining IR.) The idea of aiming a flood of near-IR into the faces of the audiences is that to the camera it's like having the sun in frame, and either the sensor will be overwhelmed or the camera will expose for the light and drastically underexpose the scene. (Doesn't have much to do with sound, except for the sound of someone saying "I spent three hours watching a camera instead of the show and this is what I get?") |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 9:20:25 GMT
Here's an idea. Take a bag of tennis balls into the theatre and in the middle of the performance start throwing them at the device. When someone shouts "Stop throwing tennis balls at the {name of device}" you'll have your answer.
This also works if you've forgotten the name of an actor.
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Post by Michael on Feb 6, 2016 9:30:38 GMT
So why does it have a pattern of LED red lights on the front of it? It seems to be some sort of monitoring device, I thought? What you describe as "pattern of LED red lights" are in fact infrared lights. Infrared light is invisible to the human eye, but not to cameras. If you watch a show in such a theatre, you will only see what's happening on stage and "ignore" the infrared light. A camera, however, will recode both the stage action and the infrared lights and in the recording you will only see the overlap of both. from this patent: www.google.com/patents/US6559883or, have a look at this: student.societyforscience.org/article/fighting-theater-pirates |
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Post by TheatreDust on Feb 6, 2016 9:33:25 GMT
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Post by Phantom of London on Feb 7, 2016 1:57:27 GMT
Okay so a sound desk costs £250k. So these are very niche items, so are all sound desks the same, or are they made bespoke for each individual show.
What does a sound desk operator actually do?
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Post by TheatreDust on Feb 7, 2016 13:37:55 GMT
Nope, that wasn't it. This is small, no border, no grill. Perhaps it was a similar device from a different manufacturer - though it more sounds like we are thinking of different things. Next time you see one, take a picture of it - that way either you will get a photo that's completely obscured and we will know that's what it is for - or a clear picture which you can post here and someone who knows what they are talking about can help us out! |
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Post by firefingers on Feb 8, 2016 0:17:45 GMT
Okay so a sound desk costs £250k. So these are very niche items, so are all sound desks the same, or are they made bespoke for each individual show. What does a sound desk operator actually do? No, they are sort of off the self, but the software allows a lot of personalisation. The DiGiCo SD7T is used for pretty much all big West End musicals these days. The T stands for theatre, as the software has some useful features for theatre, but there is a more generic version which is just the SD7, which is used by bands like Coldplay and was used to mix the sound of the Olympic ceremonies etc. As far as the job itself, on a big show you will have several sound operators working as team (often listed as Sound No. 1, Sound No. 2 and so on). One of them will mix the show (alternating a lot as it is a stressful job and it means that cover is available for holidays and illness). Mixing the show means setting the levels of microphones and triggering sound effects. The sound effects are the easy bit, you have a button to press for each queue and you just press it when you need to. The mics are much harder. Basically, having lots of mics live will sound really messy, thin and unpleasant. This means that you only put the microphones live you need, which means putting up faders (volume control for each sound source) for each bit. Perhaps this video will explain it better: Every so often he presses a little button which changes what microphones are being controlled by which faders. Make sure you have annotations turned on. The other sound operators will look after stuff back stage, as the radio microphones are prone to failure through sweat, being jerk around in dance number, slipping under wigs etc. Mixing a show requires intense levels of concentration, as one slip up and you can clip a crucial line (or the cast member may fluff their line and then you have to be in the zone to figure out what the cast are going to do about it) or wreck someone else's big number. And you have to have a good memory as well, as you have to remember how each performer sings this line or that, but also how each understudy does it (as they may need to be made louder or quieter by moving the fader at the right point). They you have a cast member who is a little ill or hungover, and you have to compensate for that too. It is certainly a challenge. |
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Post by Phantom of London on Feb 8, 2016 8:13:31 GMT
Thank you for that, all VERY interesting.
So the desk operator will turn each microphone on/off as an actor comes in from the wings? Also if this is the case and the operator forgets to turn a microphone off, has it happened where for example an actor says to the stage company "working with that person is a complete ****"?
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Post by Michael on Feb 8, 2016 8:30:32 GMT
So the desk operator will turn each microphone on/off as an actor comes in from the wings? Also if this is the case and the operator forgets to turn a microphone off, has it happened where for example an actor says to the stage company "working with that person is a complete ****"? In such a case, this happens  Edit: Apparently, Kerry was so p*ssed by the behaviour of a couple of girls in the front row who were talking, cheering, screaming, whooping, taking pictures and so on that she said to someone off-stage that she wanted to throw pins at them - without realising that her mic was still turned on. |
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Post by firefingers on Feb 8, 2016 13:01:43 GMT
Thank you for that, all VERY interesting. So the desk operator will turn each microphone on/off as an actor comes in from the wings? Also if this is the case and the operator forgets to turn a microphone off, has it happened where for example an actor says to the stage company "working with that person is a complete ****"? More frequent than that. The mics go on and off for each line. If an actor hasn't got a line at the moment, their fader should be down. Obviously there are exceptions as some actors will improvise etc. Having loads of mics on sounds thin and messy and makes everything much harder to hear. And yes, leaving mics up or pulling the wrong mic up happens more than you know. Most of the time you get lucky as theatres are pretty quiet places, but I do recall putting the wrong mic live in a complex mixing sequence as an actress was discussing her dioreaha... |
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Post by jaqs on Feb 8, 2016 13:27:33 GMT
Thank you for that, all VERY interesting. So the desk operator will turn each microphone on/off as an actor comes in from the wings? Also if this is the case and the operator forgets to turn a microphone off, has it happened where for example an actor says to the stage company "working with that person is a complete ****"? Happened at a Hairspray cast change. Rachael Wooding saidhat was f***ing brilliant." as she came off stage from a number. |
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Post by Phantom of London on Feb 8, 2016 18:02:57 GMT
So going back to the actual sound desk, you say they are hired, but are all the same make and model, but the hire company has one spare for each show, would this because although the desk is the same, they are set up specifically for each show, with sound effects and takes along time to 'personalise' a desk, than have one desk and cancel shows, whilst building the spare?
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Post by Nelly on Feb 8, 2016 18:15:31 GMT
So going back to the actual sound desk, you say they are hired, but are all the same make and model, but the hire company has one spare for each show, would this because although the desk is the same, they are set up specifically for each show, with sound effects and takes along time to 'personalise' a desk, than have one desk and cancel shows, whilst building the spare? The personalisation will be a file that is on a usb stick, referred to as the 'show file'. You can load it onto the replacement desk and hey presto...! |
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Post by firefingers on Feb 8, 2016 19:48:22 GMT
So going back to the actual sound desk, you say they are hired, but are all the same make and model, but the hire company has one spare for each show, would this because although the desk is the same, they are set up specifically for each show, with sound effects and takes along time to 'personalise' a desk, than have one desk and cancel shows, whilst building the spare? Nelly is correct, the personalisation cam be done in a minute off a USB stick. Autograph sound having a back up for each bit is more about security. Other hire companies may not have any of that desk left, and given the months of programming it takes to set one up for a West End show, you'd have to cancel. Though in the old days the desk were indeed custom built by hand, in fact Autograph Sound was started by a man remortgaging his house to finance the building of the sound desk for Cats. |
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Post by Dawnstar on Feb 8, 2016 20:07:14 GMT
The Les Mis (or should that be Les Miz, as it sounds like a US cast) video is fascinating. It looks so complicated, I'm amazed there aren't more screw-ups. I've never heard any really bad mistakes, just sometimes mics coming in late so the first word or two of a line is not amplified (and one of the advantages to sitting at the front as much as possible is being able to hear lines even if the mics are late).
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