241 posts
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Post by justafan on Nov 2, 2016 20:01:15 GMT
Loved it ... stunning ...
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Post by partytentdown on Nov 5, 2016 15:00:18 GMT
Today's matinee cancelled due to cast indisposition (although it wasn't announced until everyone arrived...)
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4,984 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 5, 2016 22:56:14 GMT
Well I am odds with Ms Mountford on this, who needed 2 Nurofen to get through this show, however if a top rate score causes you to have a medical condition then clearly then you are in the wrong job. For me the score was glorious in an otherwise dreadful production, firstly the racist book doesn't work, as there is no central protagonist. Also the actor-musician concept strangulated any attempt at acting, firstly: it made the stage clattered and when you tried to focus on the action, all you could see were actors playing instruments in the background, secondly an actor needs to have a bit of recovery time between playing their role and needs time to refocus and thirdly actors have a hard job playing their acting roles well, without being distracted by playing their instruments, nothing should distract an actor from their primary profession.
The stage is for acting and the pit is for musicians and never the two should twine.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 23:09:26 GMT
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Post by d'James on Nov 5, 2016 23:19:59 GMT
Expect me to go to the Theatre less then. Haha.
Are all those courses created by Craig Revel Horwood?!
Hmmm. Can't say I'm thrilled if that's the way it's going, but what can I do.
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2,850 posts
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 5, 2016 23:32:41 GMT
the racist book doesn't work, as there is no central protagonist. that's exactly the point, it's a choral piece, it's meant not to have a central protagonist. |
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2,678 posts
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Post by viserys on Nov 6, 2016 6:27:54 GMT
firstly the racist book doesn't work I'd like to know why/how you consider the book to be racist? |
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4,984 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 6, 2016 14:00:41 GMT
the racist book doesn't work, as there is no central protagonist. that's exactly the point, it's a choral piece, it's meant not to have a central protagonist. The choral piece would apply to how the score is delievered, the central protagonist is what is the central character in the book, where the plot stems from, this is missing in Ragtime. The script is full of derogatory racist terms, that became unnecessary. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 14:30:29 GMT
It might be considered a racist term today, but that was the language used back then. It also packs an emotional punch to the story because of its effect. It's a period piece. Should we gloss over history to make it more pleasing?
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1,046 posts
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Post by jgblunners on Nov 6, 2016 14:33:32 GMT
that's exactly the point, it's a choral piece, it's meant not to have a central protagonist. The choral piece would apply to how the score is delievered, the central protagonist is what is the central character in the book, where the plot stems from, this is missing in Ragtime. The script is full of derogatory racist terms, that became unnecessary. I haven't read the novel on which the show is based, but from descriptions from other people I gather that it also does not have a central protagonist, so the author and the creative team behind the musical clearly want to focus on the relationships between people, and the way they affect each others' lives, rather than telling the story of one particular person. Interestingly, in the programme for this production one of the creative team (I think it might actually be the author of the novel, but I can't remember) mentions how different people he speaks to have very different interpretations of who the 'central' character of the piece is. With regard to the racism - to remove the slurs from the script would be to dilute the hatred and abuse that immigrants and people of colour at that time were subjected to. Since one of the purposes of the story is to make clear to us just how badly these people were treated, it would be detrimental to the piece if we weren't shown these shocking scenes. |
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2,850 posts
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 6, 2016 14:56:33 GMT
that's exactly the point, it's a choral piece, it's meant not to have a central protagonist. The choral piece would apply to how the score is delievered, the central protagonist is what is the central character in the book, where the plot stems from, this is missing in Ragtime. The script is full of derogatory racist terms, that became unnecessary. Have you read by any chance the original novel? if you do, you'll notice that there is no protagonist even there... it's just how the story is conceived, you might like it or not, but it's not a deficency of the book at all, it's a narrative choice. |
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2,678 posts
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Post by viserys on Nov 6, 2016 18:30:30 GMT
It's been many years since I read the original novel (probably around the time the musical came out) but I also think that Ragtime was never meant to be the story of ONE protagonist and more of a caleidoscopic vision of the "new nation" and its various people - the WASPish family and Mother's emancipation, the Jewish immigrants from Eastern European (as represented by Tateh) and the struggle of people of colour to be respected as equals. I remember there's also a movie version around with a young(-ish) Mandy Patinkin as Tateh and Debbie Allen as Sarah.
I find the development of the central characters Mother, Coalhouse and to a lesser extent Tateh (the leap from penniless immigrant to "Baron" is stretching it somewhat) easier to follow than, say, that of the people in Titanic, who often appear for little more than one song and remain mere ciphers. If anything perhaps, they should have trimmed some of the lesser characters and focus more on the leads, but again, I think it's how the story is meant to be in the first place. Like Titanic wants to be all about the ship itself, Ragtime wants to be more about the young nation USA.
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4,961 posts
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Post by Someone in a tree on Nov 7, 2016 12:36:13 GMT
This is not a racist piece
It uses racist language to tell of race relations
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Post by profquatermass on Nov 8, 2016 19:50:58 GMT
The novel is a great work of radicalism that has been adapted to become a liberal film and musical. But to call it racist because characters use the language of the period is simply extraordinary and something of an insult to Doctorow
The film is no masterpiece but it's worth seeing for the cast. James Cagney came out of retirement to play the police chief
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4,984 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 8, 2016 22:03:04 GMT
firstly the racist book doesn't work I'd like to know why/how you consider the book to be racist? The whole book is proliferated with racial slur, unlike Memphis where the department boss uses an unacceptable term or Penny Pingleton mother makes a similar slur in Hairspray, the audience gasps, but the point is made and the show moves on, unlike Ragtime that is determined to remind you every several minutes, in case the audience might forget what they were already told minutes before. |
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4,984 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 8, 2016 22:03:51 GMT
The choral piece would apply to how the score is delievered, the central protagonist is what is the central character in the book, where the plot stems from, this is missing in Ragtime. The script is full of derogatory racist terms, that became unnecessary. Have you read by any chance the original novel? if you do, you'll notice that there is no protagonist even there... it's just how the story is conceived, you might like it or not, but it's not a deficency of the book at all, it's a narrative choice. Do I need to read the book, to enjoy the musical then? |
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4,984 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 8, 2016 22:07:42 GMT
Wow they educate people in this art form. Even though it is still very niche, this will help them get jobs, in a industry where jobs don't really exist. The actor/musician novelty has worn off for me now, it is an unwelcome distraction. |
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2,850 posts
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 8, 2016 22:23:39 GMT
Have you read by any chance the original novel? if you do, you'll notice that there is no protagonist even there... it's just how the story is conceived, you might like it or not, but it's not a deficency of the book at all, it's a narrative choice. Do I need to read the book, to enjoy the musical then? if you read my post very carefully you'll see that it's not what I said. I said that they both use the same narrative choice of not having a single protagonist. So no, if you desperately need a central figure in a story, don't read the novel. |
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2,452 posts
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Post by theatremadness on Nov 8, 2016 22:46:07 GMT
I'd like to know why/how you consider the book to be racist? The whole book is proliferated with racial slur, unlike Memphis where the department boss uses an unacceptable term or Penny Pingleton mother makes a similar slur in Hairspray, the audience gasps, but the point is made and the show moves on, unlike Ragtime that is determined to remind you every several minutes, in case the audience might forget what they were already told minutes before. Yes, unlike Memphis, set in the 50's onward and yes, unlike Hairspray, set in the 60's, both where, even though it wasn't unheard of to see or hear certain racial slurs printed, language had at least progressed, if not the attitude. Ragtime is set at the turn of the 20th Century (1902-1912, I believe?), quite a while before your examples, where racial slurs were still in use. It's not "determined to remind you every several minutes, in case the audience might forget", it's based on a novel of historical fiction and historical accuracy, accuracy that is important in portraying American history, and if it makes you feel uncomfortable; good! Why should this be sugar-coated? Just because it's a musical? Just because it's 2016 and we don't talk like that anymore? That does an incredible disservice to those who lived their lives as depicted in Ragtime. It's a bit baffling that you'd think the book is written to hit the audience over the head with racial slurs and that you can't see that it's a matter of truth that does contribute to the musical having the impact that it does, because of how far we have come, and indeed how far we still have to go. |
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4,984 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 9, 2016 4:01:56 GMT
But does an intelligent audience need it rammed down their throat repetively through the whole show? How do people of colour feel, if they see the show?
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642 posts
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Post by Stasia on Nov 9, 2016 6:52:32 GMT
But does an intelligent audience need it rammed down their throat repetively through the whole show? I consider myself an intelligent audience so here is my answer. I feel perfectly normal. I am sharing the emotion of the characters and feeling their pain and anger, just the same as when Fantine has to sell her body, or when Felicia is beaten, or when Matilda feels lonely, or when some other character dies, in pain, loses his love or whatever. Emotional - yes. Compassionate and feeling the pain with the characters - yes. But no one rammed anything down my throat unless I ask for it. It is perfectly normal to see the shows about the past years and read the books describing the life as it was in these days. It is not racism - to describe that life using these words that were in use. |
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571 posts
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Post by westendwendy on Nov 11, 2016 9:28:58 GMT
Saying this show is racist is like saying Jesus Christ Superstar or Joseph and his Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat are offensive to Christians. Nonsense. They are stories that are set at a period of history and use the cultural references and social behaviour of the time. If that includes Pharaohs to racial slurring then let if be. Often theatre irks the soul and it can be difficult to watch - but that's the whole point of storytelling and history!
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2,850 posts
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 11, 2016 9:31:26 GMT
There is a trailer now!
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Post by d'James on Nov 11, 2016 9:35:51 GMT
I remember looking into this show when it was on at Regent's Park but and it didn't seem like it'd be for me. This trailer has made me seriously consider going to see it though. |
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Post by d'James on Nov 11, 2016 11:16:34 GMT
This is NOTHING like the RP production. Go see it. It wasn't the production that put me off, just the story and style of music. I think my tastes have changed though although maybe this is where my 'not listening to the music' before seeing a show really backfires as I'm sure I would've liked it back then too, although a bad production might've meant I liked it less. |
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