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Post by scarpia on Feb 12, 2021 19:43:43 GMT
Except they ARE changing the set pieces and there is no reason any of this can't be done with modern technology. They are downscaling the show, ruining its aesthetic, and chucking out key concepts that Hal and Maria conceived. But surely for good reason. Even if that's financial, it's still a valid reason seeing as it's the producers who are funding it, not you. Theatre's have taken a beating in the last 12 months, so I wouldn't expect any producer to be pouring unnecessary money into productions at the moment. POTO was running in London as a museum piece, with sets that were designed and installed 34 years ago, so it was clear they needed to do a lot of work in updating the sets/mechanics. It makes sense to install the fresh new sets of the UK tour, which are ready and waiting. And let's face it, most people who go and see the show won't see any difference, other than a fresh production of a show/staging/set they recognise. Also, did someone not previously mention health and safety implications of the angel scene? This could be a valid reason as to why it's no longer used in new productions in the UK (and the World Tour). You're being disingenuous. The producers of this show (after the Lion King, the second highest-grossing of all time) are not taking any financial risk with this show and have already recouped and then some. There is more than enough cash splashing about to use technology to replicate the original set design and effects. Talking about new technology is all well and good, but the point that is repeatedly missed is that they are downgrading the show, not updating it. If they want to upgrade it and make it better, then fine. If they want to keep it looking the same but with more efficient technology, then fine. But that's not what they're doing. |
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Post by c4ndyc4ne on Feb 12, 2021 22:13:58 GMT
But surely for good reason. Even if that's financial, it's still a valid reason seeing as it's the producers who are funding it, not you. Theatre's have taken a beating in the last 12 months, so I wouldn't expect any producer to be pouring unnecessary money into productions at the moment. POTO was running in London as a museum piece, with sets that were designed and installed 34 years ago, so it was clear they needed to do a lot of work in updating the sets/mechanics. It makes sense to install the fresh new sets of the UK tour, which are ready and waiting. And let's face it, most people who go and see the show won't see any difference, other than a fresh production of a show/staging/set they recognise. Also, did someone not previously mention health and safety implications of the angel scene? This could be a valid reason as to why it's no longer used in new productions in the UK (and the World Tour). You're being disingenuous. The producers of this show (after the Lion King, the second highest-grossing of all time) are not taking any financial risk with this show and have already recouped and then some. There is more than enough cash splashing about to use technology to replicate the original set design and effects. Talking about new technology is all well and good, but the point that is repeatedly missed is that they are downgrading the show, not updating it. If they want to upgrade it and make it better, then fine. If they want to keep it looking the same but with more efficient technology, then fine. But that's not what they're doing. "But that's not what they're doing." Sorry but – do we know the specifics of what they're doing? Aside from a planning application (addressed to Westminster Council rather than the public) has there been any evidence of what set is going IN – what's being built, whether or not it's the tour etc. All we've got is what detailing to expect around the proscenium. Honestly don't think we can complain through sustained conjecture until the day that it opens and people actually see the show – then they can say that it is a "downgrade" or whatever word people want to use. |
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42ndBlvd
Swing
I'll be back where I was born to be
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Post by 42ndBlvd on Feb 12, 2021 22:37:35 GMT
You're being disingenuous. The producers of this show (after the Lion King, the second highest-grossing of all time) are not taking any financial risk with this show and have already recouped and then some. There is more than enough cash splashing about to use technology to replicate the original set design and effects. Talking about new technology is all well and good, but the point that is repeatedly missed is that they are downgrading the show, not updating it. If they want to upgrade it and make it better, then fine. If they want to keep it looking the same but with more efficient technology, then fine. But that's not what they're doing. "But that's not what they're doing." Sorry but – do we know the specifics of what they're doing? Aside from a planning application (addressed to Westminster Council rather than the public) has there been any evidence of what set is going IN – what's being built, whether or not it's the tour etc. All we've got is what detailing to expect around the proscenium. Honestly don't think we can complain through sustained conjecture until the day that it opens and people actually see the show – then they can say that it is a "downgrade" or whatever word people want to use. Oh come on! You don't think Cam will reuse the uk tour sets? Most of the sets were replicas of the original. This will save him time and money. There's no problems about this, but everyone is angry with the state of the chandelier, angel, proscenium and orchestra. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2021 22:48:07 GMT
The new chandelier will not be rising from the stage or crashing into it. It will be covered by drapes for prologue and have it's drapes removed through hidden pulleys. For the crash, it will fall down and rise back up quickly using a blackout. Audiences WILL DEFINITELY NOTICE THIS CHANGE. The angel was always apart of the touring productions (for decades!) and in recent world tours it was removed to make the show easier to move, not for safety reasons. Where has any of that been confirmed? |
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42ndBlvd
Swing
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Post by 42ndBlvd on Feb 12, 2021 23:31:11 GMT
The new chandelier will not be rising from the stage or crashing into it. It will be covered by drapes for prologue and have it's drapes removed through hidden pulleys. For the crash, it will fall down and rise back up quickly using a blackout. Audiences WILL DEFINITELY NOTICE THIS CHANGE. The angel was always apart of the touring productions (for decades!) and in recent world tours it was removed to make the show easier to move, not for safety reasons. Where has any of that been confirmed? No confirmations but this should explain it
  The new chandelier seems to be one piece, no collapsing tiers or wheels.  Chandelier construction for the 2020 Japan Revival. Note the wheels at the bottom so it glides on stage. They get hidden by various beading. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Feb 13, 2021 6:04:18 GMT
An explanation from Facebook....hmm
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Post by 141920grm on Feb 13, 2021 8:23:52 GMT
I don't know why social media's sharing the shoddy cropped version of the mockup with the chandelier half cut-off, leading to all the indignant cries of "you can't even see the chandelier properly, how can you make such conjectures!" and some people using that to invalidate others' concerns- the un-cropped mockup from the original planning document shows the whole chandelier, which, despite not proving anyone right or wrong at this stage, puts a stop to that aforementioned and frankly tiring comeback.  |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Feb 13, 2021 9:32:45 GMT
I can't believe folk are getting so upset about special effects. Surely theatre is about writing and actors?
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Post by theatreian on Feb 13, 2021 9:58:59 GMT
I was never impressed with the chandelier anyway. It never crashed onto the stage and moved so slow you knew what was coming. It was the most underwhelming effect in my view which was grossly overplayed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 10:17:59 GMT
I was never impressed with the chandelier anyway. It never crashed onto the stage and moved so slow you knew what was coming. It was the most underwhelming effect in my view which was grossly overplayed. Totally - apparently it was faster on Broadway and in Las Vegas? It was no doubt very special in 1986. But watching it wobble it's way around when I last went in 2019..... Well, it was sort of special to me as it reminded me of the 80s and the mega musical era I love so much. Wonderful memories. But to anyone seeing it for the first time, (and thinking dispassionately), it was underwhelming. I do wonder if sentiment plays a big part for people desperately clinging to every last element of the 1986 presentation. And would re-iterate again - none of us know what exactly will be presented at Her Majesty's. Phantom is glorious and as all great musicals is more than the sum of it's parts. We have to see it when it opens to critique it. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 10:21:28 GMT
Another thought, is that my God, after the year we have had, whatever form the chandelier takes I will be beyond euphoric to see Phantom open in the West End again. Literally counting the days! Just a shame we don't know exactly how many days!
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Post by Someone in a tree on Feb 13, 2021 10:31:15 GMT
I was never impressed with the chandelier anyway. It never crashed onto the stage and moved so slow you knew what was coming. It was the most underwhelming effect in my view which was grossly overplayed. Totally - apparently it was faster on Broadway and in Las Vegas? It was no doubt very special in 1986. But watching it wobble it's way around when I last went in 2019..... Well, it was sort of special to me as it reminded me of the 80s and the mega musical era I love so much. Wonderful memories. But to anyone seeing it for the first time, (and thinking dispassionately), it was underwhelming. I do wonder if sentiment plays a big part for people desperately clinging to every last element of the 1986 presentation. And would re-iterate again - none of us know what exactly will be presented at Her Majesty's. Phantom is glorious and as all great musicals is more than the sum of it's parts. We have to see it when it opens to critique it. I saw in Manchester in the 1990's and it was fast. The sole purpose of the prologue is introduce a special effect #special |
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42ndBlvd
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Post by 42ndBlvd on Feb 13, 2021 11:04:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 11:50:06 GMT
I can't believe folk are getting so upset about special effects. Surely theatre is about writing and actors? You think people go to see Lion King for the writing or Mamma Mia for the actors? (Mega)Musicals are about the entire vehicle, the journey, the experience. A vertical drop chandelier is an incredibly different effect to that of a free-fall-swing onto stage, narrowly missing the heads of those in the front row. It's a critically different experience, that anyone in the front stalls has the potential to miss. Those bemoaning the lack of drama in the chandeliers fall in London may have seen the show a few too many times. If your looking for it, waiting expectedly, it's not going to make the same impression. I went with family in 2018, who had last seen the show nearly 20 years earlier, who screamed when the chandelier fell, out of surprise. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 11:52:29 GMT
I was never impressed with the chandelier anyway. It never crashed onto the stage and moved so slow you knew what was coming. It was the most underwhelming effect in my view which was grossly overplayed. I take it you never saw the replacement Glass Elevator in Charlie then  A scissor lift with some black drape wrapped round it. Now that was underwhelming. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 12:43:42 GMT
I can't believe folk are getting so upset about special effects. Surely theatre is about writing and actors? You think people go to see Lion King for the writing or Mamma Mia for the actors? (Mega)Musicals are about the entire vehicle, the journey, the experience. A vertical drop chandelier is an incredibly different effect to that of a free-fall-swing onto stage, narrowly missing the heads of those in the front row. It's a critically different experience, that anyone in the front stalls has the potential to miss. Those bemoaning the lack of drama in the chandeliers fall in London may have seen the show a few too many times. If your looking for it, waiting expectedly, it's not going to make the same impression. I went with family in 2018, who had last seen the show nearly 20 years earlier, who screamed when the chandelier fell, out of surprise. I've seen the show twice in its entire history and I dont give a damn whether the chandelier falls or not. I like the show for its glorious score, not because of 2 seconds in 2.5 hours where a chandelier does or doesn't fall. If that is the only reason a person likes the show then they don't really like the show. The production was tired when I first saw it a decade ago, technology and everything else moves on, and regardless of whether the production recouped years ago or not business is still business. There are a lot of people on this thread who seem to think that sentiment and nostalgia rules the world. It really doesn't. |
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Post by danb on Feb 13, 2021 12:56:20 GMT
You think people go to see Lion King for the writing or Mamma Mia for the actors? (Mega)Musicals are about the entire vehicle, the journey, the experience. A vertical drop chandelier is an incredibly different effect to that of a free-fall-swing onto stage, narrowly missing the heads of those in the front row. It's a critically different experience, that anyone in the front stalls has the potential to miss. Those bemoaning the lack of drama in the chandeliers fall in London may have seen the show a few too many times. If your looking for it, waiting expectedly, it's not going to make the same impression. I went with family in 2018, who had last seen the show nearly 20 years earlier, who screamed when the chandelier fell, out of surprise. I've seen the show twice in its entire history and I dont give a damn whether the chandelier falls or not. I like the show for its glorious score, not because of 2 seconds in 2.5 hours where a chandelier does or doesn't fall. If that is the only reason a person likes the show then they don't really like the show. The production was tired when I first saw it a decade ago, technology and everything else moves on, and regardless of whether the production recouped years ago or not business is still business. There are a lot of people on this thread who seem to think that sentiment and nostalgia rules the world. It really doesn't. Whereas I see a marriage of the two as it’s strength. I find some of the ‘operetta’ style grates and goes on a touch too long for me so need a bit of flashy shiny to occupy my tiny brain. Nostalgia plays a massive part, people wanting to see what they saw before with no possible notion that it might be better or an improvement. |
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Post by theatreian on Feb 13, 2021 12:58:54 GMT
I take it you never saw the replacement Glass Elevator in Charlie then A scissor lift with some black drape wrapped round it. Now that was underwhelming. Yes I did see that. The closer you are to the stage the more you can see with the 'illusions'. I think I was further back for Charlie so it probably seemed a bit better. The problem i had with the chandelier was the speed or lack of it as it seemed to take forever to 'crash' down. This is not taking away from the show itself though. I am sure the new version will have updated technology etc. |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Feb 13, 2021 13:04:06 GMT
I can't believe folk are getting so upset about special effects. Surely theatre is about writing and actors? You think people go to see Lion King for the writing or Mamma Mia for the actors? (Mega)Musicals are about the entire vehicle, the journey, the experience. A vertical drop chandelier is an incredibly different effect to that of a free-fall-swing onto stage, narrowly missing the heads of those in the front row. It's a critically different experience, that anyone in the front stalls has the potential to miss. Those bemoaning the lack of drama in the chandeliers fall in London may have seen the show a few too many times. If your looking for it, waiting expectedly, it's not going to make the same impression. I went with family in 2018, who had last seen the show nearly 20 years earlier, who screamed when the chandelier fell, out of surprise. Surely all people go to the theatre for the experience? If an actor or the writing is naff you will rightly moan about it regardless of if you know the name of the said naff person. Set and effects are part of the story telling but they shouldn't be the central part. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Feb 13, 2021 13:07:19 GMT
The blog of a superfan isn’t what I’d consider to be a reliable source of information on this. |
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Post by ceebee on Feb 13, 2021 13:33:18 GMT
It is obvious that the mere dangling of the will it / won't it chandelier "carrot" is making many people bite. It will rise, it will fall, and those who seek reassurance that they are getting the original and best will be satisfied. Personally, I'd love to see an effect that showcases the best of 2021 technology and immersive/experiential theatre. The twee effects of the 80's can hopefully rest in peace - wouldn't it be great to see better pyro and effects than those naff pops and lightning bolts that made Phantom look positively camp towards the end of its glorious run... (Not that there is anything wrong with positively camp - I'd just like to see the creative team given the licence to go a bit nuts and reinvigorate a really great show, without the whiff of Cameron's cost control.) What greater gift to the West End (and the world) than a properly reworked masterpiece fit for 2021? And if there aren't Phantom facemasks for the Covid era then I'll be mightily miffed! Fingers crossed for 5 June - does anybody think it will reopen on that day?
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Post by theatreian on Feb 13, 2021 13:36:29 GMT
Fingers crossed for 5 June - does anybody think it will reopen on that day? In a word no!! I very much doubt non socially distanced theatre will be back until autumn at the earliest. Time will tell though. We may get some slight inkling on 22nd with the 'roadmap'. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 13:47:20 GMT
Fingers crossed for 5 June - does anybody think it will reopen on that day? I have been thinking about this. If there is one thing that's clear - it's all very unpredictable what the regulations will be. However I think the way things are going, socially distanced theatre WILL be allowed by June (it was allowed in December and we will soon be back at those levels, but this time WITH a vaccine). It is also my hunch that it is incredibly unlikely that non socially distanced auditoria will be allowed by then. So the question I think is - would the producers happily open with social distancing? As Jamie and Six did. Clearly it would be a financial hit but at least this time they would know that fuller audiences will be allowed at some point and it is very unlikely they will have to close (in retrospect, it was sadly inevitable for the December stuff). And the producers can afford a temporary hit - I do think they'd still make a profit in fact, all be it a smaller one. And as Nica Burns felt, even if they don't make a profit, it would be of huge holistic benefit to the industry. I REALLY hope they'll take the hit and open with social distancing. Though I worry CM will go back to his "couldn't possibly run without the whole house sold" mentality. Exactly the same thought process for Les Mis.... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 14:01:09 GMT
It is obvious that the mere dangling of the will it / won't it chandelier "carrot" is making many people bite. It will rise, it will fall, and those who seek reassurance that they are getting the original and best will be satisfied. Personally, I'd love to see an effect that showcases the best of 2021 technology and immersive/experiential theatre. The twee effects of the 80's can hopefully rest in peace - wouldn't it be great to see better pyro and effects than those naff pops and lightning bolts that made Phantom look positively camp towards the end of its glorious run... (Not that there is anything wrong with positively camp - I'd just like to see the creative team given the licence to go a bit nuts and reinvigorate a really great show, without the whiff of Cameron's cost control.) What greater gift to the West End (and the world) than a properly reworked masterpiece fit for 2021? And if there aren't Phantom facemasks for the Covid era then I'll be mightily miffed! Fingers crossed for 5 June - does anybody think it will reopen on that day? The problem with a phantom facemask is it only covers the nose and not the mouth - the inverse of how half the people out there are wearing their masks currently, haha. Re: The Chandelier. I get that it's an element some aren't fussed about. And the requirement to bring the show (kicking and screaming) into this millennium, all for it, but obviously this is a heated topic that many people feel impassioned about. Phantom without it's crashing chandelier is a bit like Sunset without a Staircase, Wicked without the flying witches, Saigon without the chopper, Joseph without his coat, or Cats without, well, cats. |
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