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Post by kathryn on Sept 30, 2016 8:59:20 GMT
Unwanted talking can escalate to unwanted touching - wearing a badge indicating you're willing to talk would lead some creeps to believe you're up for being grabbed, too.
But it's more than that. Most people's way of coping with the overcrowding of city life is to, essentially, pretend that the crowd isn't there, by moving in their own little invisible bubble - no eye contact, headphones in, phone/newspaper/book to stare at. That's why the idea of encouraging of people to talk is so disturbing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 9:02:17 GMT
People on the tube are so ignorant, self centred and rude anyway, why would anyone in their right mind want to talk to them?
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 30, 2016 9:14:47 GMT
I suppose the problem with the tube idea is that there is no established common ground, unlike our theatreboard badges where you are likely to have encountered or even chatted to the person before.
It's a shame that the tube idea immediately sparks concerns about "unwanted attention" from men though. Not all men are sex pests. In fact most of us aren't.
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Post by Ruby Sue on Sept 30, 2016 9:16:58 GMT
I always find it frustrating when there's these Buzzfeed type lists about not daring to talk to commuters etc etc & how miserable we are because we don't want to exchange with strangers on our commute but honestly, for me, my commute is either the last 30 minutes I have to myself for the rest of the day or the first after a long day at work & I don't really want to spend them in enforced conversation with a totally stranger!
Then again, like someone else here has said, I'm also one of life's introverts so those kind of conversations fill me with dread!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 9:26:05 GMT
My journey to and from work is my sacred time where I ease myself into full consciousness ready for the day ahead, or unwind so I'm no longer in the office mindset when I get home. Similarly my train journeys to and from London are sometimes the only times in a week that I truly have to myself for reading or writing or just sitting still and thinking. But even if I'm not making mental adjustments or having a read or being profoundly thoughtful, my presence in a public space is not an invitation for people to impose themselves upon me, and it doesn't surprise me at all that the person who came up with this asinine idea is a man, because literally every woman I know understands this and yet we frequently find ourselves talked to and remarked upon even when we've done nothing to deserve it or call attention to ourselves, whether it's a tirade of furious abuse from a crowd of drunks, or even something as seemingly innocuous as someone (who clearly intends to be friendly) telling us to smile, like even our facial expressions have to be policed and adjusted to please strangers. And if it sounds like I'm making a fuss over tiny things, please try this experiment - stick a pin in your arm. Not super pleasant, but over with pretty quickly with no lasting effects, right? Now stick a pin in your arm every thirty seconds for as long as you can bear it, *then* try telling me I'm making a fuss over tiny things. Anyway! Rant over!   |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 9:28:47 GMT
I suppose the problem with the tube idea is that there is no established common ground, unlike our theatreboard badges where you are likely to have encountered or even chatted to the person before. It's a shame that the tube idea immediately sparks concerns about "unwanted attention" from men though. Not all men are sex pests. In fact most of us aren't. Not all unwanted attention is of the sex pest variety. Also, "not all men" really isn't an argument that holds water, because we KNOW that 99 out of 100 men are perfectly pleasant and completely harmless, but we've been trained since before puberty to be on constant alert for the 1%, and the problem is far less "only some men harass women" and very much more "all women have been and/or will be harassed by men". |
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Post by theatremadness on Sept 30, 2016 9:53:07 GMT
But I thought that the idea was for people wearing the badge to talk to other people wearing the badge? Not people wearing the badge to use the badge as an excuse to talk to whoever they like? So if you don't wear a badge, the likelihood of your commute changing would be slim, as those wearing a badge wouldn't try engaging with those not wearing one. That's not a guarantee of course, this is not a perfect world and not wearing a badge is not a force-field and wearing a badge may give some people a sense of entitlement that doesn't exist, but to me, if you're not wearing a badge, that's a clear enough signal. If you are.....then expect a chat from a stranger!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 10:07:48 GMT
I've read enough articles about the general public's response to "baby on board" badges to know that the sweet pure idea of two friendly badge-wearing people enjoying a gentle exchange of pleasantries is almost guaranteed to backfire. TheatreBoard badges, on the other hand, I can continue to get behind. No need for pleasantries among us lot, we can just get stuck straight into the nitty gritty of will Hamilton live up to the hype and will Broadway appreciate Imelda's Mama Rose.  |
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Post by showgirl on Sept 30, 2016 10:33:22 GMT
I suppose the problem with the tube idea is that there is no established common ground, unlike our theatreboard badges where you are likely to have encountered or even chatted to the person before. It's a shame that the tube idea immediately sparks concerns about "unwanted attention" from men though. Not all men are sex pests. In fact most of us aren't. I am sure most chaps aren't, BurlyBear, and I refrained from saying this originally, but all the unwanted conversational approaches I can recall have been from men - and given our respective ages, I hardly think they were trying to chat me up - so maybe some men are just less adept at reading signals, verbal and non-verbal? |
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Post by kathryn on Sept 30, 2016 11:13:11 GMT
It's a shame that the tube idea immediately sparks concerns about "unwanted attention" from men though. Not all men are sex pests. In fact most of us aren't. No, indeed not. But the last guy who tried to start an unsolicited conversation with me on the tube (I ignored him - he had headphones in, I genuinely thought he was on the phone to someone the first time he spoke), ended up then following me down the platform, following me into the most distant (almost empty) carriage and sitting right next to me, and grabbing my knee/thigh. Fortunately a very loud 'Ugh, no!' and immediately moving to the other end of the carriage eventually stopped him, but I was looking back over my shoulder all the way up the escalators in case he reappeared. It doesn't have to happen often to make you incredibly uncomfortable and wary. This is an interesting article about London's politeness culture: www.citymetric.com/horizons/tube-chat-badges-show-london-isnt-rude-it-has-negative-politeness-culture-2481Unsolicited conversation with no good reason worries us because it breaks the polite social convention, which leads to anxieties about what other social conventions might be ignored. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 30, 2016 11:14:44 GMT
But I thought that the idea was for people wearing the badge to talk to other people wearing the badge? Not people wearing the badge to use the badge as an excuse to talk to whoever they like? So if you don't wear a badge, the likelihood of your commute changing would be slim, as those wearing a badge wouldn't try engaging with those not wearing one. That's not a guarantee of course, this is not a perfect world and not wearing a badge is not a force-field and wearing a badge may give some people a sense of entitlement that doesn't exist, but to me, if you're not wearing a badge, that's a clear enough signal. If you are.....then expect a chat from a stranger! Quite. It smacks of "I don't want to wear a badge because I'm worried about being targeted with unwanted attention, and I don't want you to wear one either" |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 12:06:50 GMT
But I thought that the idea was for people wearing the badge to talk to other people wearing the badge? Not people wearing the badge to use the badge as an excuse to talk to whoever they like? So if you don't wear a badge, the likelihood of your commute changing would be slim, as those wearing a badge wouldn't try engaging with those not wearing one. That's not a guarantee of course, this is not a perfect world and not wearing a badge is not a force-field and wearing a badge may give some people a sense of entitlement that doesn't exist, but to me, if you're not wearing a badge, that's a clear enough signal. If you are.....then expect a chat from a stranger! Quite. It smacks of "I don't want to wear a badge because I'm worried about being targeted with unwanted attention, and I don't want you to wear one either" Other people are very welcome to wear them to their hearts' content! The point is, I might pop on one of those badges with fresh, hopeful thoughts of meeting people from different countries and cultures and backgrounds, or sharing thoughts and nostalgic reminiscences with people just like me, who are also wearing badges. On the other hand, the other person wearing the badge might be a dodgy bloke just looking for his next, apparently 'willing' victim (ie a woman wearing a similar badge). Most women (because, sadly, it has happened to most of us) will be able to tell you that when you're in a situation like that, telling the bloke you're not interested (and you usually have to do it repeatedly) generally leads to a quick escalation to unpleasant name-calling and threatening language. If you're wearing a badge saying, "I want to chat!", the obvious verbal weapon for said bloke is "But you're wearing a badge, you silly (expletive deleted)." So the fact that a lot of women might be reluctant to pin on such a badge is not entirely a huge surprise. Nothing stopping those who want to, though. Or any blokes. I wish them many hours of charming conversation together. But unfortunately, I also know human nature! (And, yes, I absolutely recognise it's a minority of blokes who behave unpleasantly. I know many wonderful men. I manage to walk around most of the time and make solid judgements within seconds about whether the bloke I'm about to encounter is a sleaze or not. But the fact is, you're always primed for the one that is a sleaze and, unfortunately, you act accordingly. Perhaps when society recognises just how often this happens, and just how serious an effect it can have, our daughters and granddaughters won't have to do it any more.) |
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Post by kathryn on Sept 30, 2016 12:09:06 GMT
It doesn't have to happen often to make you incredibly uncomfortable and wary. Oh ug, that's horrible Kathryn. Honestly, that's mild, compared to what some people get. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 12:19:02 GMT
You can get up to 4 million people using the Tube in a day. Let's assume that most people are going to work and from work, so those 4 million journeys are actually only 2 million people. Now let's assume 1 million are men and 1 million are women. Assuming that 999,999 of those men are either not wearing badges, or are respectfully only approaching other people wearing badges, that leaves 1 man who'll be wearing his badge, and maybe he's seen a woman wearing headphones, so he's stood precisely 1.5 metres in front of her, attracted her attention, pantomimed "take your headphones off!" at her, and when she says she's really not interested in having conversation with him, he'll point to his badge and say something like "hey, I'm wearing a friendly Tube Chat badge, that means I'm a friendly guy!", and use that as an excuse to keep pursuing an unwanted conversation. And he's only 1 in a million, but he's out there, and I BET you he'll find me.  Also I find it disheartening that at least three of us have felt the need to clarify that we KNOW most men are nice but it's not the nice ones who are a problem. Proper nice men don't dismiss women's concerns by making the conversation about how *they'd* never do a thing like that, overlooking that there's still other people out there who *will* do a thing like that and *those* are the ones that mean these conversations still need to happen. Anyway! Once again, this isn't really *all* about Tube Chat, it's just the latest splash from a tidal wave of Issues Women Face By Simply Having The Nerve To Put Themselves In A Public Place Even If They're Just Sitting Quietly. |
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Post by showgirl on Sept 30, 2016 13:47:56 GMT
Only yesterday there was a horrible report in the Evening Standard about a London woman who'd been mowed down by one of a pair of bikers, apparently because she had ignored their catcalls and comments.
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Post by viserys on Sept 30, 2016 15:50:31 GMT
In the department "tube encounters of the strange kind" I had a weird experience in Valencia last weekend. We were on the tube from the beach back into the city in the late afternoon when this chap sat down next to me. He was wearing headphones and held a phone in his hands... and half a minute after sitting starting singing at me and the young woman opposite us. We women exchanged a WTF look, so at least I knew that serenading strangers on a train is not a peculiar Spanish habit. I was glad when I could leave the train a station later though.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Sept 30, 2016 16:11:33 GMT
Of course most men are "nice" but most men also have no idea what it's like to be a woman, and the absolute flood of sexism and street harassment we have to deal with. I don't think most men would be able to understand what it feels like going through life with men regularly approaching you to make a sexual comment/ask for your phone number/tell you to smile etc. especially knowing that the onus is on you to handle him such a way that he doesn't instantly decide to murder or rape you.
I literally don't know a single women amongst my circle of acquaintances who hasn't been subject to some kind of unwanted sexual assault while traveling, and honestly being called a slut by some strange guy barely even registers anymore it happens so often.
And if we're lucky it doesn't start until we're in secondary school.
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Post by anthony40 on Sept 30, 2016 16:24:40 GMT
Of course most men are "nice" but most men also have no idea what it's like to be a woman, and the absolute flood of sexism and street harassment we have to deal with. I don't think most men would be able to understand what it feels like going through life with men regularly approaching you to make a sexual comment/ask for your phone number/tell you to smile etc. especially knowing that the onus is on you to handle him such a way that he doesn't instantly decide to murder or rape you. I literally don't know a single women amongst my circle of acquaintances who hasn't been subject to some kind of unwanted sexual assault while traveling, and honestly being called a slut by some strange guy barely even registers anymore it happens so often. And if we're lucky it doesn't start until we're in secondary school. Wow! For what it's worth DuchessConstance, I'm a nice guy (so everyone keeps telling me) and have NEVER done any of the things you have mentioned in the above post |
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Post by foxa on Sept 30, 2016 16:44:46 GMT
Baemax - that picture made me LOL.
My badge arrived promptly - I'd say within a week or less of ordering, but I keep forgetting to wear it! But I will.
I think the thing about the chatting badge is that it is too contrived. I am a bit of a chatter at times and a bit of wanting to put my headphones on at others, but what I like about the chats are that they happen spontaneously. Just had a good natter with an elderly woman who began by complaining about waiting at the pharmacy but ending up regaling me with stories of 'Old Putney' and the theatre where Theatre of Blood was filmed and the French ballet dancer who smokes on the corner of her road and helped her park her daughter's car. But if we were chatting because we felt committed by a badge it wouldn't have been as fun.
With the theatre badges, it's a bit different in that, to some degree, many of us have online relationships (is that too strong a word?) so it could be fun to put a face to the online voice. Though in my case, do lower your expectations. If you can.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 30, 2016 16:47:27 GMT
Of course most men are "nice" but most men also have no idea what it's like to be a woman, and the absolute flood of sexism and street harassment we have to deal with. I don't think most men would be able to understand what it feels like going through life with men regularly approaching you to make a sexual comment/ask for your phone number/tell you to smile etc. especially knowing that the onus is on you to handle him such a way that he doesn't instantly decide to murder or rape you. I literally don't know a single women amongst my circle of acquaintances who hasn't been subject to some kind of unwanted sexual assault while traveling, and honestly being called a slut by some strange guy barely even registers anymore it happens so often. And if we're lucky it doesn't start until we're in secondary school. Wow! For what it's worth DuchessConstance, I'm a nice guy (so everyone keeps telling me) and have NEVER done any of the things you have mentioned in the above post Careful anthony, according to some people proper nice men don't defend themselves like this because it dismisses women's concerns. Yeah, go figure. |
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Post by DuchessConstance on Sept 30, 2016 16:59:54 GMT
Well it IS interesting how some men's response to hearing about sexual violence against women is 100% about themselves...
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Post by kathryn on Sept 30, 2016 19:27:09 GMT
Rule of thumb: if a woman complains about the things some men do to women, and you're a man and have never done that then, awesome, well done, we're not complaining about you. Don't take it personally.
Saying 'but I've never done that!' makes it sound like you don't believe us. Like you are trying to dismiss what we're saying. And there's a reason for that, too - it's not the first time most of us have mentioned this stuff online, and generally those responses don't lead to a pleasant conversation, to say the least.
Human beings are great at recognising patterns, you know? Pattern recognition is how we learn from past bad experiences to avoid future bad ones.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 30, 2016 19:53:06 GMT
I think that normal men who actually like women and like interacting with them are just eager to express that we don't fall into your "weirdo" bracket.
However that's obviously very offensive. Lesson learned. Carry on.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 21:43:55 GMT
You don't prove you're not a weirdo by saying "BUT *I'M* A NICE GUYYYYY" when we're having a moan, you prove it by, y'know, NOT BEING A WEIRDO. But I don't know, apparently that's a really complicated concept, so by all means carry on complaining and not *actually* listening. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 30, 2016 22:01:35 GMT
So anyway we were thinking about doing a bigger theatreboard badge. Maybe the sortt of size that might stand out on a bag, or a ... erm bag? Or maybe you just prefer a bigger badge. Let us know eh?
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