Volume of musicals

[dippy]

In the past few weeks I've seen two comments about the volume of musicals:

Aug 7, 2016 11:02:01 GMT HereForTheatre said:

It was quite a loud show which i do love.

Aug 13, 2016 10:23:48 GMT @theatremonkey said:

I now take earplugs myself to some musicals, and with them in, you can hear the show far more clearly.

Are there some musicals that should be loud? The musical Andy614 was talking about was the current Sister Act tour. Are there musicals that are too quiet? 

In my opinion there are several musicals that are far too loud, I will not be going back to Kinky Boots for that reason (and yes, I had ear plugs in). I saw Mamma Mia on tour in Bristol once and that was horribly loud, the theatre seemed to be shaking, is that really necessary? Does that volume actually increase people's enjoyment of a show? (It doesn't mine, and I'm curious about other people's thoughts).

[crabtree]

personally I would love to hear a show without amplification, just the band and real raw voices......how glorious.

[dippy]

Aug 21, 2016 22:15:30 GMT crabtree said:

personally I would love to hear a show without amplification, just the band and real raw voices......how glorious.

That would be lovely, I'd love to go to a musical like that. I went to "Some Enchanted Evening" at Cadogan Hall the other day and a man behind me was moaning about the fact that the singers had mics, guess he'd want to go to a non-amplified show too.

[zak97]

Definitely agree, it really is glorious. I think that's the aspect I love about a good play, when the actors know how to project well. If my memory serves me correctly City of Angels wasn't amplified with mics, and the volume was perfect in the Donmar setting.

[BurlyBeaR]

Never been to one that was too loud. In fact, given the choice I'd crank up the volume a bit on most things.

I think I might be a bit mutton! 

[Deleted]

I've been to ones I've felt were too quiet but never too loud.

[jgblunners]

I have no objection to cranking up the volume, as long as it doesn't compromise quality by getting so loud the sound is fuzzy. In big, exciting songs I feel that a decent volume really helps the atmosphere. Something like Mamma Mia is a prime example, but I agree that having it so loud it causes local tremors is a bit far!

The idea of a non-amplified show is an interesting one, and it works well in small venues, but with big shows amplification is just as much about balance as it is about filling the space with sound. Making sure that the voices aren't drowned out by the band, but also that within the band every instrument can be heard and each part of the score brought to its full potential, is vital to musical theatre. It'd be disappointing if composers created beautiful music but we never got to hear it properly.

Part of the issue is also that, while projection of the voice is a vital part of training for any singer, it is just one of many things to take into account when performing. Opera singers train for much longer than musical theatre performers, and spend a lot longer concentrating on projection in every part of their vocal range, hence why they can fill large venues without amplification (but then they usually don't have to run around or dance at the same time). I've always found the opera vs musical theatre comparison very interesting, and this is a prime reason why.

[dippy]

Aug 21, 2016 22:35:36 GMT BurlyBeaR said:

Never been to one that was too loud. In fact, given the choice I'd crank up the volume a bit on most things.

Aug 21, 2016 22:36:55 GMT @snutte said:

I've been to ones I've felt were too quiet but never too loud.

I did think I might be in the minority here, looks like my thoughts may have been correct. I definitely don't feel like I've been to one that was too quiet. When you say too quiet what aspect of it? The songs? Just the dialogue? All of it? 

[crabtree]

and mics and amplification lead to my pet peeve, which is the voices seemingly coming from everywhere but the performer - a convention we just have to accept. Wrong!

[danb]

Nah, I just love to be manipulated into thinking I've enjoyed something by amping up the volume for a mega mix at the end! 😜 I think Mamma Mia needs the volume. They have the best overture in town, so they don't want to waste it. I too am veering on needing a trip to the audioligist after 43 years of excessive volume in my ears, so it might just be that, but I do like being blasted away by the opening bars just to ramp up the excitement.

[Deleted]

Yup, I'm in with keeping it cranked up. Always drowns out the noise of the audience...

[HereForTheatre]

90% of the time I think a show is too quiet. I enjoy shows being loud. The best show for sound I've been to was Memphis, which had excellent loud sound which I thought added to the show. I saw The Bodygaurd on Sat and I enjoyed the volume of that too.

It's interesting to see Kinky Boots mentioned as a loud show as that's one I wanted more volume from, but I went when it opened so things might have changed now.

[greeny11]

I like the music to be quite loud as long as I can still hear the performers. The only one I thought was too loud was Sunny Afternoon - I couldn't make out any of the lyrics because the music overpowered the vocals so much.

[Deleted]

I've never seen a show that was too quiet (musical, anyway). I've been to ones that were just right, and I've been to ones where the volume wasn't an issue but the balance was, and I've been to ones that have been bordering on too loud. The only one that's actually been too loud for comfort is Sunny Afternoon. They could've brought it down several notches and it still would have been extremely loud. I actually veered away from recommending it to people who I thought would like the content because I knew that they would hate the volume.

[wickedgrin]

Like most posters on here I generally like a bit of volume. The Bodyguard benefits I think for example. But I also like unmiked, natural sound in fringe venues too. The quality of the sound is what matters. The volume in Regents Park recently for JCS was thrilling!

The only time I thought the volume too loud was for Tommy at the Shaftesbury many years ago when I genuinely thought the plaster was going to come off the walls!!!

[danb]

Local residents thought the same, although that opening chord at such volume used to scare the crap out of me every time I saw it (which was many).

[Nelly]

Aug 22, 2016 12:30:50 GMT wickedgrin said:

The only time I thought the volume too loud was for Tommy at the Shaftesbury many years ago when I genuinely thought the plaster was going to come off the walls!!!

During We Will Rock You's run at the Dominion it wasn't rare to see a few small bits of plaster drop onto stage towards the end of the show. It wasn't ever anything to worry about apparently and the theatre was regularly inspected.

[ctas]

At one venue on the most recent Evita tour I had a second row seat on the edge. When the show started it was so loud there (near the speakers) that everything was shaking and you couldn't hear the singing over the music. Quickly moved a bit further back and that was much better. Incidentally Cabaret in the same venue a year (or so?) before was fine from the same seats.

I also have a raging headache after seeing Kinky Boots from the front row day seats too but that could be the overall loudness rather than just the volume.

[firefingers]

Volume is a tricky mess of a thing.

A lot of people in this thread seem to be having more trouble with the balance between orchestra and vocals, which is a whole different issue, and varies be designer and operator. All I can say is that vocal intelligibility is my number one aim, and I will pull the band back to faint whisper if I have to.

As to why shows are so much louder these days, it is down to a number of factors. Firstly, theatres are MUCH noisier places than they used to be. Big shows use a lot of modern lighting and projection equipment which have fans in for cooling that create a lot of white noise, and producers hate being able to here the motors for things like flys and trucks. All this has to be drowned out by the sound.

Another thing hated by producers is being able to hear footsteps and people moving, so sound will often be loud in small venues where they don't want people 6 feet away to here that a person is walking...

Additionally, audiences are noisier and more restless too, and it all adds up. Another big factor is what we term passive listening. Go to the opera, people lean forward and focus their ears to hear. Musical theatre audiences, used to high definition sound at home, lie back and expect the audio to be pushed to them. Hence requests from the public for shows to get louder. It wasn't that long ago where musicals were quieter. Go see Wicked on Broadway and contrast it with London. Much quieter.

I have head reports in recent years of operators having arguments with designers/producers or even walking due to the so sound level they are being instructed to do. A friend was told to "Buy some ear plugs". But additionally, producers are often unwilling to pay for enough decent quality speakers (and speaker control) to create that level of sound they want, and as you turn up a system it becomes more distorted and so more painful to listen to.

Volume is something that should be a show specific design choice. RENT should be a whole lot louder than Merrily We Roll Along. A quiet We Will Rock You should be seen as just as bad as a loud Carousel. But the number of times I have mixed a dress rehearsal or first preview at an acceptable level (in agreement with the rest of the sound team) and my first note from producer or director been "It was alright... but can we get it louder."

Another factor is trying to make your cut down 5 piece band sound like original 60 piece Broadway recording of 50 years previous. Now, sound designers know it won't work, but producers/directors won't listen and just ask for more.

Something else is that producers and cast members see a radio mic as an excuse. Terrible diction and projection are now rife, with the actor expecting his low mumble to translate to to the rear of the upper circle, when all you really get is a loud mumble instead.

Sorry for the big rambling disjointed post, but thought I should outline how we ended up with shows much louder than they used to be.

Oh, and I assure you City of Angels did use radio mics. There is an interview with the sound designers here, click the 2nd link, it is a backstage PDF thing. www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=city+of+angels+donmar+sound
And localising sound so it sounds like it is coming from the actor is possible, but very expensive and time consuming to set up. It has been done on mic'ed operas at the Albert Hall for a while using a system called TiMax, and Aladdin is the first West End musical to use it. Haven't seen the show so can't comment on how successful it has been in this case, but the tech is there (and improving!)

[Deleted]

Miss Saigon has to be pretty loud in places. So does Les Misérables. Some shows should be a bit louder imo. The last 2 times I saw Wicked, there seemed to be something wrong with the amplification. In some songs it seemed like the ensemble wasn't amplified at all. What is this feeling and One Short Day sounded a bit strange because of that. Yet, in the second act everything was well amplified and it sounded amazing. After the first time I thought there had just been some technical difficulties. But when I went back a few months later it was exactly the same. So apparently it's a conscious decision. And not a good one in my opinion.

[dippy]

Aug 22, 2016 14:23:17 GMT firefingers said:

Sorry for the big rambling disjointed post, but thought I should outline how we ended up with shows much louder than they used to be.

Don't be sorry at all, it was fascinating and informative, thank you. More than anything it's lovely to know that there are sound designers out there that don't like how loud the shows are.

[Nelly]

Aug 22, 2016 15:15:34 GMT @theatremonkey said:

Aug 22, 2016 14:23:17 GMT firefingers said:

As to why shows are so much louder these days, it is down to a number of factors. Firstly, theatres are MUCH noisier places than they used to be. Big shows use a lot of modern lighting and projection equipment which have fans in for cooling that create a lot of white noise, and producers hate being able to here the motors for things like flys and trucks. All this has to be drowned out by the sound

On "white noise," can any technology used in "noise cancelling headphones" be used instead of turning up volumes on other sounds?

Noise cancelling is a bit of a double edged sword as far as I'm concerned. Whilst it does block out lots of exterior noise it does reduce the quality of whatever you're putting through it. Also, as Firefingers said it's not just that noise, there are a lot of elements. Knowing lots of sound designers, I'm not so sure they would get on board with something processing the sound before the sound op or whoever has had a chance himself, as inevitably they'll lose something they want in the mix. Hope this makes sense and isn't too much of a waffle. Mmmm waffles. 

[Nelly]

This conversation about unwanted noise reminds me of something that happened at the Royal Opera House when I working there. There were some lights with a colour scroller on the front of them, that makes a little noise when it changes to another colour in the scroll. One patron clearly didn’t like this noise and took it upon himself to unplug the colour scroller, which left the light stuck on a rather noticeable colour when the light was on in certain cues. Luckily it was picked up quite quickly and plugged back in. The nerve of some people at theatre (or any public space) really does astound me sometimes.

Perhaps this should belong in the bad behaviour thread but seemed relevant here.

[Deleted]

I paid quite a lot to sit on the front row of the Dress Circle for Love Never Dies when it first opened. Couldn't hear a thing because of some overloud and robust "cooling fans" situated just in front of our seats. A company member asked us after the show what the sound was like from there, so it had obviously been mentioned... I complained and was given comps to another performance, this time in the middle of the Stalls and it was a completely different experience.

[Deleted]

Aug 22, 2016 16:30:39 GMT Nelly said:

There were some lights with a colour scroller on the front of them, that makes a little noise when it changes to another colour in the scroll. One patron clearly didn’t like this noise and took it upon himself to unplug the colour scroller, which left the light stuck on a rather noticeable colour when the light was on in certain cues.

That's brilliant, the actual nerve of some people!

I guess with touring shows it varies from theatre to theatre. I saw Wicked at The Palace in Manchester and the sound was superb, you could hear every word. Took my Mum to see the same tour at His Majesty's in Aberdeen and it was dreadful. Band totally swamping the cast and far too loud (we were quite far back in the stalls). It was opening night though, so I guess they may have sorted it afterwards.