When you cry, you really cry: emotional toll of stage acting

[DuchessConstance]

But why on earth would you be "offended" at someone saying (in response to a direct question) that they find their job challenging? How on earth does "I find my job challenging" = "I'm better than anyone who doesn't do my job." Why are you actively seeking out interviews with people you hate? And why would you be determined someone is lying, just because you met someone doing a job in the same broad area who had a different opinion?

Obviously some acting is more challenging than others. Obviously different actors have different approaches and opinions, because of that whole "unique human being and not Borg" thing.

My mum is a nurse. She's constantly talking about how challenging and draining it is. According to you that means she thinks she's better than everyone else, right? Another friend of mine is also a nurse, and she finds the job a breeze. That must mean my mum's a liar, since all nursing jobs are identical and all nurses have a hive mind?

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2016 11:10:15 GMT DuchessConstance said:

But why on earth would you be "offended" at someone saying (in response to a direct question) that they find their job challenging? How on earth does "I find my job challenging" = "I'm better than anyone who doesn't do my job." Why are you actively seeking out interviews with people you hate? And why would you be determined someone is lying, just because you met someone doing a job in the same broad area who had a different opinion?

I haven't actually said any of that, have I? Let's go through your claims one by one:—

But why on earth would you be "offended" at someone saying (in response to a direct question) that they find their job challenging?

I'm not. I'm offended by the sort of attitude that describes people who don't do that job as "muggles".

How on earth does "I find my job challenging" = "I'm better than anyone who doesn't do my job."

It doesn't. I never said it did. What I did say is that there are some people who do act as though their job make them better than others. That's not the same thing at all.

Why are you actively seeking out interviews with people you hate?

Where did I say I hate actors? In any case, I didn't seek out the interview; it was posted here. And I read it because it was important to know what it was about before discussing it. I may not agree with what the interviewees have to say but that doesn't mean I shouldn't listen to them say it.

And why would you be determined someone is lying, just because you met someone doing a job in the same broad area who had a different opinion?

I've heard different opinions from different people. Friends and family have told me that it's no big deal. Complete strangers in this interview — and not in every interview, mind — say that they find the emotions overwhelming. Quite apart from the fact that I'm more inclined to trust people I know than people I've never met, the fact is that the people I know have no incentive to be anything other than completely straight with me while the people in the interview have an incentive to promote themselves because in their line of work image is important. Are you really suggesting that I should trust strangers over people I know? Do you not trust the opinions of people you know and respect over people you've never met?

My mum is a nurse. She's constantly talking about how challenging and draining it is. According to you that means she thinks she's better than everyone else, right? Another friend of mine is also a nurse, and she finds the job a breeze. That must mean my mum's a liar, since all nursing jobs are identical and all nurses have a hive mind?

Again, you're attacking things that nobody has actually said.

A few years ago I had to undergo a set of rather invasive tests in hospital. One doctor and nurse were really friendly and put me at ease. Another doctor expected that everyone around him would shut up and listen whenever he started speaking, and his pair of nurses were behaving more like servants than colleagues. I'm sure all of them found their work demanding, but only one of them acted all precious about it.

There's nothing wrong with being good at your job, and there's nothing wrong with being proud of being good at your job. Being arrogant about it is another matter, and some actors are very arrogant indeed.

[DuchessConstance]

You seem to be the one responding to things that have not been said, and ignoring what has been said.

Most of the actors I know who are the most emotional in their acting technique are incredibly down to earth off-stage. I find the idea that actors have to find their jobs a breeze or they're automatically pretentious and superior very odd. Ditto the idea there is one single "right" opinion that covers all acting and all actors! There is zero correlation between an actor's process, and their personality. Some of the rudest and most stuck up "I'm better than everyone else" actors completely share Matthew's "it's just saying lines" attitude. Some of the nicest, most humble and down to earth actors share the opinion given in the article.

Kate Fleetwood, the subject of this thread, is the most down to earth person and un-superior you'll ever meet.

As for the person who used the word "muggles" that has zero to do with this thread. You met one rude person who happened to be an actor. There are rude people in every job and walk of life. Where in the article does Kate or any of the others call anyone muggles? Where do they express any rudeness or arrogance or superiority?

You don't think it's rude that the fact Kate gave one single interview saying she personally finds it emotionally challenging having to break down and cry and murder kids and enact her own death every night, has led to four pages of ranting about how rude, pretentious, arrogant, stuck-up, superior, dishonest, self-aggrandizing, etc. etc. etc. she (and anyone other actor who occasionally finds their job challenging) is?

Aug 16, 2016 12:40:43 GMT @thematthew said:

Do you not trust the opinions of people you know and respect over people you've never met?

I trust that everyone is allowed their own opinion about their own life! In this case the friends of mine who have been roundly attacked simply for saying "I personally found playing Medea emotionally challenging"!

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2016 12:40:43 GMT @thematthew said:

Do you not trust the opinions of people you know and respect over people you've never met?

I trust experts in their field the most, no matter if I know them or not. Unfortunately the tenor of the times is to attack them - climate scientists, economists etc. Apparently people with no facts or experience but a feeling that they are right are more likely to be listened to nowadays......

[DuchessConstance]

Why can we all not just accept that different people have different opinions? And that people have different personalities and experiences that influence those opinions? Friends' opinions are just their personal opinions and not automatically the "right" answer. Because there is no "right" answer. I've found things hard that my friends found easy. I've found things easy that my friends found hard. Because we're different people! Doesn't mean one of us must be lying or pretending our jobs are harder than they are to boast and self-aggrandize. Just means some people find certain things easier than others, and some jobs are more challenging than others.

Nowhere in the original article or the original thread has there been any mention of actors being rude or arrogant or thinking they're better than anyone else. Obviously rudeness and arrogance is unacceptable. What's that got to do with Kate saying "I found playing Medea emotionally challenging"?

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2016 12:57:35 GMT DuchessConstance said:

You seem to be the one responding to things that have not been said, and ignoring what has been said.

And you say this in response to a post in which I quoted and responded to each of your comments individually, while you make a point of not quoting people and then attacking them over things they never said. I think we're pretty much done here.

I find the idea that actors have to find their jobs a breeze or they're automatically pretentious and superior very odd.

So do I, which is why I didn't make that claim.

Aug 16, 2016 12:40:43 GMT @thematthew said:

Do you not trust the opinions of people you know and respect over people you've never met?

I trust that everyone is allowed their own opinion about their own life! In this case the friends of mine who have been roundly attacked simply for saying "I personally found playing Medea emotionally challenging"!

(At last, a quote, albeit stripped of context.) And my friends and family are allowed their own opinions about their own lives. I'm not saying they speak for everyone, obviously, but in the absence of personal experience I have to rely on sources I know and trust over complete strangers. Do you not see the irony that in a thread in which you're trying to say that actors don't think highly of themselves you're telling me that you know better than I do whether I can trust the people I know?

[DuchessConstance]

That's the exact opposite of what I said! You're the one claiming acting is easy peasy simply because you know people who opine that it is, and therefore any actor who mentions finding a role challenging is a liar, arrogant, pretentious, self-aggrandizing, making themself out to be better than everyone else etc. etc.

Aug 16, 2016 15:03:25 GMT @thematthew said:

you're telling me that you know better than I do whether I can trust the people I know?

You can trust the people you know to state opinions about themselves. But you aren't doing that. You're using their opinions about themselves to attack and debunk my friend's opinion about her own life. Why can't you simply accept that people have different feelings and perspectives about themselves? Why does there have to be a single 'right' opinion?

Plenty of "it's emotional challenging" actors are very humble and down to earth and plenty of "it's just saying lines" actors are obnoxious and rude and think they're better than everyone else.

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2016 15:27:27 GMT DuchessConstance said:

That's the exact opposite of what I said! You're the one claiming acting is easy peasy simply because you know people who opine that it is, and therefore any actor who mentions finding a role challenging is a liar, arrogant, pretentious, self-aggrandizing, making themself out to be better than everyone else etc. etc.

Where did I say that? Where did I say all acting is easy peasy? Where did I say that any actor who finds a role challenging is a liar or arrogant or any of the other things you've said? This thread's only four pages long. If I really said that then it shouldn't take you more than a minute or two to find the exact quote.

You're also disparaging my family. I didn't say they said acting was easy peasy. I said they said they didn't find it emotionally overwhelming. If acting was easy peasy then there'd be no such things as bad actors, and from my own seconds-long acting experience at school I know for a fact that's not true.

The closest I got to criticism of your friend is that I said that I thought they were probably overstating the strength of the emotional impact. I don't see that as an unreasonable suspicion, given that the performers I've known have all told me a very different story. Obviously I only have a subset of all actors as my sample and I'm not claiming they speak for all actors, and I'm not claiming that my suspicion represents the absolute truth, but I can only base my opinions on what I've been told by the actors I know. Your experience is obviously different, but that doesn't give you the right to accuse me of all sort of things that I haven't actually done.

[Deleted]

I know I'm not an admin, so this could be considered overstepping a line, and I apologise in advance if that is the case, but shall we all agree to take a break from this thread? Maybe?

[londonmzfitz]

Wait! I just got here!

*dons tin hat, settles in with cuppa tea*

[Deleted]

The thread started off with a couple of people who, after seeing the choice of 'Some seem it only natural after giving everything of yourself night after night for two hours, other feel it self-indulgent nonsense.' indicated they thought it was the latter. The thread was doomed to go off the rails from that point.

Although this board may be run by people from the audience's perspective, there are, I would imagine, a large proportion of performers and other people involved in theatre who contribute and/or read.

[DuchessConstance]

Oh come off it, there's been a ton of actor-bashing on this thread. We've had five pages banging on about how actors can be "rude", "self-indulgent", "very arrogant", "pretentious" and "unprofessional"; that actors "look down on people who aren't actors themselves", "act as though their job make them better than others" and "vastly overstate their own significance to the world"; and that actors who say acting can sometimes be emotionally challenging are "making a big deal of it", "talking as if their work makes them unique and special" and are just "trying to talk themself up" and "promote themselves" when actually their job is "no big deal".

Why bring all that up in the first place, when it has zero relevance to the article and actors whom this thread is about? Yes, obviously there are lots of people who are rude and arrogant, and some of them are actors. Why raise it in a thread that's specifically about Kate and Michelle and this one article?


Matthew, you've strongly implied that actors who mention finding certain roles challenging are lying in order to self-aggrandize and self-promote:

What I've heard from actors is that the job is just a job. Then I hear an actor in an interview going on about how incredibly demanding and emotionally draining it is. Who am I supposed to believe? People I know who have nothing to gain by exaggeration, or complete strangers who are trying to talk themselves up in a publicity event?

And in response to being directly asked, "why do you think they're lying?" you replied:

Because friends and family have told me that [acting] is no big deal. [They] have no incentive to be anything other than completely straight with me while the people in the interview have an incentive to promote themselves.

Why do you need to choose "who to believe"? Why do they need to be lying, or self-aggrandizing? Why can't they simply have a different opinion or have had different experiences from your friends?

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2016 16:56:42 GMT DuchessConstance said:

Oh come off it, there's been a ton of actor-bashing on this thread. We've had five pages banging on about how actors can be "rude", "self-indulgent", "very arrogant", "pretentious" and "unprofessional"; that actors "look down on people who aren't actors themselves", "act as though their job make them better than others" and "vastly overstate their own significance to the world"; and that actors who say acting can sometimes be emotionally challenging are "making a big deal of it", "talking as if their work makes them unique and special" and are just "trying to talk themself up" and "promote themselves" when actually their job is "no big deal".

Why bring all that up in the first place, when it has zero relevance to the article and actors whom this thread is about? Yes, obviously there are lots of people who are rude and arrogant, and some of them are actors. Why raise it in a thread that's specifically about Kate and Michelle?

Threads drift. I was talking about my experience with arrogant actors I've encountered who have treated me as an inferior, and I genuinely apologise if you thought I was specifically attacking your friends, although this is not the first time I've told you that I wasn't referring specifically to them.

When I originally replied to you it was in response to the second sentence of:

I do struggle to understand why those who have never worked in theatre are so sniffy towards the people creating the thing they so avidly consume. Not just talking about crying but a lot of things that get raised here.

You were the one who took the subject away from the interview alone, and I responded. Then you seemed to forget what you'd said and treated me as if I was attacking the interview and the people involved in it.

Matthew, you've strongly implied that actors who mention finding certain roles challenging are lying in order to self-aggrandize and self-promote:

What I've heard from actors is that the job is just a job. Then I hear an actor in an interview going on about how incredibly demanding and emotionally draining it is. Who am I supposed to believe? People I know who have nothing to gain by exaggeration, or complete strangers who are trying to talk themselves up in a publicity event?

It's difficult to reconcile that with the claim that it's all so emotionally demanding

That's what you inferred. It's not what I was saying. I didn't say they're lying if they find roles challenging (and "challenging" is not the same thing as "emotionally draining"). I'm saying that in an interview context people have an incentive to big themselves up in a way that they don't when talking to friends in an informal context. You said it yourself: "giving interviews is part of an actor's job. Often it is part of their contract". In a sense, in an interview an actor is playing a role: they're playing the version of themselves that the reader of the interview will find most interesting, because an interview represents an opportunity to raise their profile and the profile of the work they're doing at the time. That doesn't make them liars. It makes them canny users of the media. But it also means that things said in an interview need to be taken with a pinch of salt, because they're said by people who are fully aware of the importance of creating the right impression with the public.

My own experience is that the actors I've known who have actually talked about it compartmentalise. I remember having post-show drinks with a happy, bubbly woman whose character had committed suicide half an hour earlier. On stage she was fully engaged with her character, but when the curtain came down she locked that away and became the actress rather than the character. I'm not saying that all actors do that, but the ones I've talked to about it have.

[DuchessConstance]

I've worked in theatre both here and in NY since the late 1980s, for every major company you could name. I've known literally thousands of actors over the years. And plenty of actors talk about how emotionally draining it is when they're in private and with friends. There is nothing in the article you don't find being discussed constantly in green rooms and rehearsal rooms across the planet.

It's nice for your friends that they find acting "no big deal" but that's not typical. And in my experience actors simply don't talk the same way when they're with non-industry people. Who knows, maybe the actors you know feel they have to put on a bit of an act and downplay the emotional side of their jobs with you, knowing your strong feelings on the matter?

I just think it's silly to cling on to what a handful of people have told you, and be derogatory towards anyone whose experience has been different. Why can you not just accept that everyone is different?

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2016 18:01:03 GMT DuchessConstance said:

It's nice for your friends that they find acting "no big deal" but that's not typical. And in my experience actors simply don't talk the same way when they're with non-industry people. Who knows, maybe the actors you know feel they have to put on a bit of an act and downplay the emotional side of their jobs with you, knowing your strong feelings on the matter?

You have it wrong. I don't have a problem with most actors. My problem is with one type of actor. As someone who grew up on the edge of a show-business family I've always thought of actors as ordinary people, and my problem is with actors who believe that as I'm not working in theatre myself I cannot possibly be permitted to think that way. That's what I hate: the arrogance of someone who thinks they have a right to tell me what my opinion of them should be. The people I know have never been in that category.

I don't have a problem with actors who find their work challenging. It's good that they do: anyone who finds their job easy could probably try harder. I do have a problem with actors who tell me that their job is more challenging than any other; who tell me that I can't possibly know what their job involves but nevertheless feel qualified to pass judgment on mine and everyone else's.

(Also, I know you don't mean it, but that "don't talk the same way" thing is exactly the sort of we-are-not-the-same-as-you thinking that I hate.)

I just think it's silly to cling on to what a handful of people have told you, and be derogatory towards anyone whose experience has been different. Why can you not just accept that everyone is different?

I do accept that people are different, but I haven't spoken to every actor in the world. I can only speak in terms of what I've been told, and what I've been told is a fairly consistent story: that actors compartmentalise their work, just like other people who have to deal with strong emotional situations. (I mentioned a while ago that in my last job I had to handle child abuse records. If I hadn't locked that away when I left the office it would have torn me apart.) I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise, but an interview isn't going to do it because I'm sure you're even more aware than I am that an interview is a working tool for an actor and only a fool wouldn't use it as an opportunity to manipulate their public image. It's not that I think your friends are lying, but that I don't believe they're so stupid as to pass up an opportunity to say the things they want the public to hear. Interviews are always filtered through the interviewee's awareness of their public image.

[DuchessConstance]

For crying out loud, no one's trying to tell you what to think, just getting tired of the constant off-topic actor-bashing and insistence on putting down other opinions.